A fly in the ointment (1 Viewer)

[pappajohn]

if you fit an 'A' frame to a newish car you are breaking the law. (in my interpretation of the rules)

All newish cars (But not motorhomes, yet) must conform to vehicle type approval regs.

fit a regular towbar to the back of a car and it must conform to vehicle type approval regs and MUST be fitted to mounting points built into the car at the design/production stage.

this means you cant go drilling holes in the chassis/body to mount any 'A' frame brackets and the manufacturers havent designed any such mounting points in the car which would need to be specificly strengthened and designated as mounting points.

just my opinion and sure to lead to yet ANOTHER 'A' frame debateoh:

 

[pappajohn]

well, at least 41 post readers are either baffled by or couldnt give a stuff about this.....

 

[scotjimland]

More than a fly in the ointment, I think this a can of worms John ..

if the regs are applied to the towing bar fitted to the car for the A frame they can't conform.. as far as I know no car manufacturer provides such mounting points.

It would be interesting to see what the A frame manufactures say to that question..

Another question ..

A letter to UK Motorhomes net from the the Dept.of Transport ..

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

No A frame I know has this provision, unless a Brake Buddy is fitted which has a break-away pin that operates the brakes.

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport

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[Geo]

John have you looked into the DfT definition of a tow baroh:
Mot definition is a bar contstructed and fitted to the REAR of a vehicle, any fitted items to the front are not to be concidered a tow bar IE vehicles equipt with front bars for boat launching

Jim if im reading your post right will not any braked trailer ie with beakaway cable do the same thing if a jocky wheel is also fitted it will prevent the draw bar from contacting the road and Any residule steering (whatever that is ) will be allowed to continue
residule steering read----- "out of control"
Information it would appear American A frames pick up on Manf Holes in the chassis:thumb:

 

[scotjimland]

Jim if im reading your post right will not any braked trailer ie with beakaway cable do the same thing if a jocky wheel is also fitted it will prevent the draw bar from contacting the road and Any residule steering (whatever that is ) will be allowed to continue
residule steering read----- "out of control"

oh:oh: yes, I forgot about the breakaway cable. was focusing to much on the jocky wheel which I don't have .. mine has a skid plate , duuno if that counts .

 

[olley]

Hi those little Toyota Aygo cars have a screwed tow point either side up the front, that guy at the shows who fits a hydraulic brake conversion, when he does an "A" frame uses them, take the "A" frame off and un-screw the bolts and its back to standard.

Olley

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[nomadic]

oh:oh: yes, I forgot about the breakaway cable. was focusing to much on the jocky wheel which I don't have .. mine has a skid plate , duuno if that counts .

Hi Jim,

Skid plates do count, problem is they greatly reduce the ground clearance space, it (I understand) should be 6" (150mm):Sad:

Without a skid on ours, it will still move forward in a break away situation, as the front lip of the coupling just slides along the road without diging in. My test carried out shortly after we purchased ours.

I also understand that the vehicle construction and use regulations are currently under review, at Brussels, and when they are issued, some time between now and 2020, (my estimate) A frames will well and truely become museum pieces.

Nomadic

 

[Snowbird]

Hi John,Thank goodness my Rv is 21-2 years old and the panda is 20-1 years old.Dont think this applies to me.Having said that somone will come up with somthing,I hope.

 

[Snowbird]

More than a fly in the ointment, I think this a can of worms John ..

if the regs are applied to the towing bar fitted to the car for the A frame they can't conform.. as far as I know no car manufacturer provides such mounting points.

It would be interesting to see what the A frame manufactures say to that question..

Another question ..

A letter to UK Motorhomes net from the the Dept.of Transport ..



No A frame I know has this provision, unless a Brake Buddy is fitted which has a break-away pin that operates the brakes.

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport

Hi Jim,Citroen Axs all had 2 towing eyes manufacturer fitted.I towed one for years on a homemade A frame for that reason.

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[Xoxoc]

John I may be wrong but I think that the blue ox base plates do mount into existing fixing points on the cars they are intended to fit to.

 

[pappajohn]

Quote:
Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.


dont know where this quote comes from but the wording is wrong.

a secondary coupling is a totally different animal to a breakaway system,.

a secondary coupling is a chain/wire rope attached to a point on the trailers/toads 'A' frame and attached to the towing vehicle.
all trailer 750kg and under MUST now be fitted with this system and can be used up to 1500kg in conjuction with a breakaway cable.
in the event of a detachment it will stop the trailer going its own way and will not apply the brakes but will retain some RESIDUAL steering.

we all know what a breakaway cable is.

but this is going away from the original thread.oh:

 

[scotjimland]

Quote:
Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.


dont know where this quote comes from but the wording is wrong.

The Letter is signed ..

Alan Mendelson
Primary Safety Branch
Department for Transport

if he got it wrong what hope do we have of getting it right oh:

sorry to drift off the topic John ... just fell across it while looking for some tow bar regulations.. won't happen again.. promise



Jim

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[pappajohn]

Hi those little Toyota Aygo cars have a screwed tow point either side up the front, that guy at the shows who fits a hydraulic brake conversion, when he does an "A" frame uses them, take the "A" frame off and un-screw the bolts and its back to standard.

Olley

i was thinking the same thing olley,

could be a way round it :thumb:

 

[Geo]

I think John in essence a breakaway cable is also a secondary coupling it is not designed to snap is it, it designed to apply the brakes and retain contact between the two vehicles, if your breakaway would snap its too thin for the job, and no its not moving of topic its one and the same surly
Must stop calling you shirly

 

[vwalan]

when you use an a frame you are no longer towing a car .it becomes a four wheel trailer . is there really any regs that discribe the or how we fit a hitch. i dont think so.

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[pappajohn]

when you use an a frame you are no longer towing a car .it becomes a four wheel trailer . is there really any regs that discribe the or how we fit a hitch. i dont think so.

no alan, there isnt, but a car isnt designed to have a hitch anyway.oh:

 

[Snowbird]

Ee by gum,this is more like it.Much more interestin than lost dogs an how long batteries last.

 

[vwalan]

when you fit the hitch you fabricate a trailer some one designed the trailer its definately not the car manufacturer they design cars me or you can design trasilers

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[pappajohn]

John have you looked into the DfT definition of a tow baroh:
Mot definition is a bar contstructed and fitted to the REAR of a vehicle, any fitted items to the front are not to be concidered a tow bar :thumb:

very true Geo, but it isnt a towbar.....its a draw bar or variant of.

not teaching yer granny etc but....

a towbar has a ball or jaw and pin (unless its a NATO coupling)....
a drawbar has a cup or an eye.

anything attached to the front ie..a bull bar, winch bumper etc has to conform to CE type appoval so why is an 'A frame' mounting any different.

 

[pappajohn]

and another thing.......im sure iv seen the military using A frames.
are they exempt?

 

[pappajohn]

Ee by gum,this is more like it.Much more interestin than lost dogs an how long batteries last.

know what you mean dave.
i was bored too.:thumb:

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[Snowbird]

know what you mean dave.
i was bored too.:thumb:

Oops we are gona get the wroth of the animal brigade now.
Wait for it. Im goin the pub.:thumb::thumb::thumb:

 

[vwalan]

hey pappa if your bored you could polish you CARAVETTE bet that got your blood circulating.

 

[olley]

Is an a "A" framed car a trailer? if so you don't need it taxed, insured or Mot'ed, but I bet plod wouldn't agree.

Olley

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[vwalan]

if we look at dvla,sown wording on there a frame definition they do say it becomes a trailer and must comply with trailer rules. as for police they only report you then you go to court if c.p.s. take it up .then a precident could be set .. think about it most cover the toads number up or dont show it. if it was a car that would be an offence by itself. while doing recovery we never covered number . we in this country dont have problems making trailers from cars ie.mini vans/vw campers to make caravans. our laws are very primative really.

 

[ourcampersbeentrashed]

my goodness they are trying to make things complicated xxx


good luck to all funsters with toadsxxxx here is hoping a princess will soon appear xxx