90 in 90 out

[Hotelman]

We are now 9 months into this crazy rule for travelling around Europe. I understand about escaping to Croatia, Turkey and hopefully morrocco etc, but who is enforcing the rules, and really who is interested. I think it’s the E.U are enforcing it, but I can’t see the customs officer in Holland, Belgian, France or Spain looking through the passport, and counting the days, especially when when you have an assortment of stamps all on different pages.
We recently came by ferry from Hull to Rotterdam, the passport wasn’t ‘scanned in Rotterdam’ just a stamp, which can hardly be read.


What do you think ?

 

[ElliesBoss]

At the moment you'll probably get away with it but when they get their electronic system working it might be a different story. However if you're a back packer coming over the mountains from non Schengen into Schengen I am not sure what you'll be expected to do.

 

[deleted79651]

We are now 9 months into this crazy rule for travelling around Europe. I understand about escaping to Croatia, Turkey and hopefully morrocco etc, but who is enforcing the rules, and really who is interested. I think it’s the E.U are enforcing it, but I can’t see the customs officer in Holland, Belgian, France or Spain looking through the passport, and counting the days, especially when when you have an assortment of stamps all on different pages.
We recently came by ferry from Hull to Rotterdam, the passport wasn’t ‘scanned in Rotterdam’ just a stamp, which can hardly be read.


What do you think ?

The 'crazy rule' is an EU Standard for Third Countries. The various electronic databases are scanned by the Border Guards and the EU Stay system [same as the online EU Stay Calculator for travellers] automatically counts the days stay. The Regs from Page 23 onwards show the checking processes that Border Guards are required to undertake

EU Border Guard Regs

Steve

 

[orridge]

Holland, France, Belgium & Spain are the Eu just as the EU is Holland, France, Belgium and Spain plus the other 23 countries that make it up and yes you are likely to be checked on any and all entry and exit points in the EU it is just there are not always border points within mainland Europe between those countries.

Your passport will likely be scanned and checked plus stamped so the checking will be done at that point.

 

[Hotelman]

Holland, France, Belgium & Spain are the Eu just as the EU is Holland, France, Belgium and Spain plus the other 23 countries that make it up and yes you are likely to be checked on any and all entry and exit points in the EU it is just there are not always border points within mainland Europe between those countries.

Your passport will likely be scanned and checked plus stamped so the checking will be done at that point.

I understand that, but if the passport has not been scanned, and really are the ‘collective’ of Europe interested. Are the customs in Holland really going to or want the hassle of stopping an overstayer when leaving the country?

I’m sure some people have already ‘flouted’ the rules, and not been caught, sorry ‘reprimanded’ , we fancy 3 months in Greece this winter, but will only have 2 months ‘spare’ , ………..

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[Phill D]

I understand that, but if the passport has not been scanned, and really are the ‘collective’ of Europe interested. Are the customs in Holland really going to or want the hassle of stopping an overstayer when leaving the country?

I’m sure some people have already ‘flouted’ the rules, and not been caught, sorry ‘reprimanded’ , we fancy 3 months in Greece this winter, but will only have 2 months ‘spare’ , ………..

as has been said on a thread on this very topic earlier this week....

there are reports on other threads of action taken by border control on some who have overstayed.

personally i will not be trying it on the question for each of us is "Do you feel lucky"??

 

[Hotelman]

as has been said on a thread on this very topic earlier this week....

there are reports on other threads of action taken by border control on some who have overstayed.

personally i will not be trying it on the question for each of us is "Do you feel lucky"??

Sorry I must have missed the previous thread, sorry to those involved

 

[orridge]

I understand that, but if the passport has not been scanned, and really are the ‘collective’ of Europe interested. Are the customs in Holland really going to or want the hassle of stopping an overstayer when leaving the country?

I’m sure some people have already ‘flouted’ the rules, and not been caught, sorry ‘reprimanded’ , we fancy 3 months in Greece this winter, but will only have 2 months ‘spare’ , ………..

A quick google search for overstaying in the EU and see what happens to our US/AU cousins when they go to leave after overstaying,

They are definitely scanning/stamping passports at Folkestone and Calais so would assume all UK entry points would be the same.

 

[Phill D]

Sorry I must have missed the previous thread, sorry to those involved

please dont apologies, i was not trying to be smart. it is not always easy to pick up a thread thats passed. i only referred to it as there was lots of comments similarly expressed.

 

[Hotelman]

please dont apologies, i was not trying to be smart. it is not always easy to pick up a thread thats passed. i only referred to it as there was lots of comments similarly expressed.

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[acropolis22]

It will be a lot more difficult to bend the rules once the ETIAS system goes live.

 

[Jenka]

Many years ago i got stopped at the toll booths near Figueras spain and the police asked where my passenger was ! I said looking after our unwell daughter in Gerona im off home to work .so i wouldn't the the chance.

 

[autorouter]

Are the customs in Holland really going to or want the hassle of stopping an overstayer when leaving the country?

No hassle at all. Just stamp your passport, and record that you have overstayed, and will not be allowed back in. Simple.

 

[Tea Bag]

Hi.
Scanning. Wasn't there a story of an unusual amount of high powered sports cars booked on a ferry Dover/Calais some while back ? The French police were informed and caught some of them ?. They were staging an unofficial race from Calais to wherever. This was some years ago...... Things have moved on in the technology front. It WILL be tricky,some cars here in Portugal have been noted,the owners have had the choice. 1. Get it out of the country in 24hrs,or 2. have it taken away/snatched.
Tea Bag

 

[deleted79651]

I understand that, but if the passport has not been scanned, and really are the ‘collective’ of Europe interested. Are the customs in Holland really going to or want the hassle of stopping an overstayer when leaving the country?

I’m sure some people have already ‘flouted’ the rules, and not been caught, sorry ‘reprimanded’ , we fancy 3 months in Greece this winter, but will only have 2 months ‘spare’ , ………..

We went on a cruise in October 2017 that called at Amsterdam to take on Dutch and German passengers. There were about 850 British passengers, all of whom wanted to visit the city; Dutch Customs were so thorough, it took almost 1.5 hours to pass through, so we, and quite a few others missed the Walking Tour we had booked. So, yes, Dutch Border Officials were very interested in the tourists and were painstakingly thorough.

Steve

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[Hotelman]

No hassle at all. Just stamp your passport, and record that you have overstayed, and will not be allowed back in. Simple.

Ouch

 

[jongood]

We went on a cruise in October 2017 that called at Amsterdam to take on Dutch and German passengers. There were about 850 British passengers, all of whom wanted to visit the city; Dutch Customs were so thorough, it took almost 1.5 hours to pass through, so we, and quite a few others missed the Walking Tour we had booked. So, yes, Dutch Border Officials were very interested in the tourists and were painstakingly thorough.

Steve

Thats the problem with cruises. too many people, too few accesses, too little time.

 

[jongood]

I understand that, but if the passport has not been scanned, and really are the ‘collective’ of Europe interested. Are the customs in Holland really going to or want the hassle of stopping an overstayer when leaving the country?

I’m sure some people have already ‘flouted’ the rules, and not been caught, sorry ‘reprimanded’ , we fancy 3 months in Greece this winter, but will only have 2 months ‘spare’ , ………..

IMO there will soon be a lot of pressure from the economies that rely on tourism to revisit the visa situation. The problem is that there is nothing between a 3 month holiday and applying to live there, and when you re talking about a dozen countries that serious numbers of people actually want to visit, its not long enough. Ultimately the EU will lose out if they don't change, not only from the loss of tourist revenue but also from attracting the bright young things of the world some of whom have the ideas that will shape the future. The big winners economically here could be Us, Morocco Turkey, US etc.

 

[Chrisvh]

IMO there will soon be a lot of pressure from the economies that rely on tourism to revisit the visa situation. The problem is that there is nothing between a 3 month holiday and applying to live there, and when you re talking about a dozen countries that serious numbers of people actually want to visit, its not long enough. Ultimately the EU will lose out if they don't change, not only from the loss of tourist revenue but also from attracting the bright young things of the world some of whom have the ideas that will shape the future. The big winners economically here could be Us, Morocco Turkey, US etc.

Interesting, if wildly optimistic, interpretation of the situation. Back to Peter Pan’s “Dreams do come true, if only we wish hard enough”. The evidence, so far, would appear to show otherwise.

 

[autorouter]

The big winners economically here could be Us,

I don't think so. The UK is generally unpleasant to be in if you are a foreigner. And the hostile environment policy has the most deterrent effect on the law-abiding - there are better places for bright young things to explore.

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[BreweryDave]

Whether your passport is scanned or stamped, or not, or even looked at, you have still entered the passport number on booking whatever service you use to leave and enter the country be it a plane, train, ferry, or anything else ! Not to mention the PLF.
big brother is watching.

 

[sciac2001]

Personally I don’t see why visas could not be offered by the EU for stays of up to 6 months or so.
Chargeable of course, but most UK winterbirds would probably gladly pay any reasonable amount.
This would raise funds for their coffers and help sustain the more vulnerable winter destination economies, which despite many comments on this forum do actually value British custom.

 

[deleted79651]

Personally I don’t see why visas could not be offered by the EU for stays of up to 6 months or so.
Chargeable of course, but most UK winterbirds would probably gladly pay any reasonable amount.
This would raise funds for their coffers and help sustain the more vulnerable winter destination economies, which despite many comments on this forum do actually value British custom.

Suspect that the tourism budgets will be directed towards the typical 2 weeks package holiday breaks. Higher spend per capita over the short period and with literally planeloads of passengers, much lower processing costs per passenger. And the Dutch, Germans, French and Swedes appear to have taken the slots 'vacated' by the British motorhomers and Freedom of Movement for the entire Winter period, less work for Border Guards

Steve

 

[autocaravaner]

Apologies in advance to the Op for posting this and I hope you get a good resolution to your overstay.

As a Spaniard reading this forum (and living in the UK) I keep finding a bit insulting when people talk about my country as if we were there only to serve the British tourists.

So bear with me...

1. Tourism represent between 10% and 12% of the Spanish economy. Sources : https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/8ed5145b-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/8ed5145b-en , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Spain

2. British tourist represent around 20% of the total number of visitors. Let me tell you, British tourist are not famous for spending a lot of cash (Benidorm anyone?). But let's say for the sake of argument that their spending is equal in average to every other tourist.

So... British tourist are contributing at most 2.4% of the Spanish GDP (that's 20% of 12%). Let's say that 50% of them get really angry that our border officers are doing their job (unlikely, we still have nice beaches and good paella) in the same way that you expect your border offices do theirs. They go to Turkey instead of Spain. That's at most a reduction of 1.2% of GDP.

So my question to you is ... do you really think that the Spanish government will be focusing on this theoretical issue that will reduce at most 1% of the economy? We have bigger problems and most importantly bigger opportunities, for example I'm working to build tech companies and bring international companies.

Next time you talk about another country, show more respect. We are not there to serve you although you are very welcome to visit or come live with us and we hope you have a cracking time.

Regards

 

[Marty Gilly and Pup]

Apologies in advance to the Op for posting this and I hope you get a good resolution to your overstay.

As a Spaniard reading this forum (and living in the UK) I keep finding a bit insulting when people talk about my country as if we were there only to serve the British tourists.

So bear with me...

1. Tourism represent between 10% and 12% of the Spanish economy. Sources : https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/8ed5145b-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/8ed5145b-en , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Spain

2. British tourist represent around 20% of the total number of visitors. Let me tell you, British tourist are not famous for spending a lot of cash (Benidorm anyone?). But let's say for the sake of argument that their spending is equal in average to every other tourist.

So... British tourist are contributing at most 2.4% of the Spanish GDP (that's 20% of 12%). Let's say that 50% of them get really angry that our border officers are doing their job (unlikely, we still have nice beaches and good paella) in the same way that you expect your border offices do theirs. They go to Turkey instead of Spain. That's at most a reduction of 1.2% of GDP.

So my question to you is ... do you really think that the Spanish government will be focusing on this theoretical issue that will reduce at most 1% of the economy? We have bigger problems and most importantly bigger opportunities, for example I'm working to build tech companies and bring international companies.

Next time you talk about another country, show more respect. We are not there to serve you although you are very welcome to visit or come live with us and we hope you have a cracking time.

Regards

I’ve liked this post and agree wholeheartedly with most of it but another angle is the investment in land and property which is a huge amount. No idea how much but it’s kept spanish builders and others in business for decades for sure. That’s currently the biggest risk to Spain as I’m not sure this is included in “tourism” figures as such but is massive in impact if they all decamp to Blighty eh?

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[autocaravaner]

I’ve liked this post and agree wholeheartedly with most of it but another angle is the investment in land and property which is a huge amount. No idea how much but it’s kept spanish builders and others in business for decades for sure. That’s currently the biggest risk to Spain as I’m not sure this is included in “tourism” figures as such but is massive in impact if they all decamp to Blighty eh?

If we focus on the impact to the housing market, I'm more concerned about a change in interest rates and the European Central Bank policies. There is a well known correlation between interest rates and house prices (read this Bank of England article for more info - https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/how-does-the-housing-market-affect-the-economy)

If you look at the impact of the British house owners in the Residential Spanish Market, it does not look huge. Let's look at some data: https://www.mordorintelligence.com/industry-reports/residential-real-estate-market-in-spain

According to industry reports, in 2020 only 11% of the Residential Spanish Market were operations made by foreigners. Of those, around 13.2% of them were British. So that's 1.43% of the Residential Spanish Market. If you get a 50% decrease on the British home owners you get an impact of 0.7% in the Spanish Market. I'm certain that an increase in interest rates by the European Central Bank will have multiple orders of magnitude more impact.

Regards

 

[deleted79651]

I’ve liked this post and agree wholeheartedly with most of it but another angle is the investment in land and property which is a huge amount. No idea how much but it’s kept spanish builders and others in business for decades for sure. That’s currently the biggest risk to Spain as I’m not sure this is included in “tourism” figures as such but is massive in impact if they all decamp to Blighty eh?

There were figures circulated around late 2016/17 showing that Spanish costs for health care for elderly UK residents were about £2750pa per person and about £4500pa per person if the individuals were repatriated to UK [plus questions about hospital and GP surgery capacity]. Suggestion was that the 'expats' [immigrants] be left in Spain for efficiency and minimal disruption to the individual.

The housing problems re mortgage arrears and associated problems were resolved after the 2008 Financial Crash, I understood, when the PIIGS economies went into a form of Special Measures that stopped Portugal, Italy, Ireland Greece and Spain from borrowing on the International Capital Markets, leaving them needing EU financial support. All have now returned to the International Markets, and every month's set of figures shows Spain's GDP and economy growth at 'highest in the preceding 24, 30, 36 months etc. I don't recall any mention of the drag from the property sector over exposure, but I have not read them in the fine detail that I used to, so I may have missed it

Steve

 

[Marty Gilly and Pup]

If we focus on the impact to the housing market, I'm more concerned about a change in interest rates and the European Central Bank policies. There is a well known correlation between interest rates and house prices (read this Bank of England article for more info - https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/how-does-the-housing-market-affect-the-economy)

If you look at the impact of the British house owners in the Residential Spanish Market, it does not look huge. Let's look at some data: https://www.mordorintelligence.com/industry-reports/residential-real-estate-market-in-spain

According to industry reports, in 2020 only 11% of the Residential Spanish Market were operations made by foreigners. Of those, around 13.2% of them were British. So that's 1.43% of the Residential Spanish Market. If you get a 50% decrease on the British home owners you get an impact of 0.7% in the Spanish Market. I'm certain that an increase in interest rates by the European Central Bank will have multiple orders of magnitude more impact.

Regards

I’m sure that is correct for Spain overall but I think the east/south coastal regions and 20 miles inland would tell a different tale. I don’t think we are the only player in this coastal economy but a massive impact looms I suspect. We shall see.

 

[jumar]

We are back home now in Murcia, I'm informed that its been a bumper year, the costas were crowded, new commercial outlets of all sorts, all doing well, where we live house sales are booming, so I cannot see any impact that the 90 day ruling might be having....if any......
There may be a small change in the Budget traveller areas, Campsites, Aires, Low cost Brit bars around the popular winter, but this will be balanced with the increase in other nationals arriving.....All in all, open for business and doing just fine...

 

[Jim]

so I cannot see any impact that the 90 day ruling might be having....if any......

In normal times, about 18m tourist go to Spain for a couple of weeks max, they stay in hotels and are not happy unless they go home skint. These will return as soon as they can. Plenty of retired people stay longer, and 1 to 3 months is plenty for them. I just can't see that the very small number of Brits who regularly stayed longer than 90 days will be missed at all. Motorhome ownership is crazily up all over Europe so sunny winter locations will be busier than ever, they'll just be selling fewer Full Englishes and more cold meat and pastry.

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