90 days in 180 (1 Viewer)

[Carpmart]

Am I correct to assume that the UK will have visa free (visa waiver program) Schengen access at the border, or will we have to apply before travel?

 

[busby]

I can honestly say I've never came across a single Scot who has not been in England at some point even if it was only to change planes at an airport .

So you must have searched far and wide to find one

Got one on here now on his first trip abroad,,first trip through England and he lives on Skye..Tells me the biggest town he has ever been to is Inverness..BUSBY.

 

[busby]

'I believe' is not a definitive answer. As for receipts, since it is a rolling 90 days one would need a receipt for each ongoing day.




What you think is not a definitive answer as requested.




I dealt with the Schengen external borders and then went on to dicuss the situation when one is 'Within Schengen'. Please don't go into the politics as per Jim's post above.

Going on -
If the onus is on the individual, the evidence of when one entered Schengen is not available to the individual, if the passport has only been scanned, only to the authorities, This leads to the suggestion that the onus of proof should be on the authorities.

ANPR may only prove when the vehicle entered but not the occupants. Not all systems can identify the persons especially if not seated at the front.

Geoff

Passports..

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[Molly A]

Think you know much more than The Media then,,must be a mole in the negotiations..I will wait and see.. BUSBY.

Busby, do you actualy follow the news? Or does it get in the way of burying your head in the sand?

 

[Tykatem]

Am I correct to assume that the UK will have visa free (visa waiver program) Schengen access at the border, or will we have to apply before travel?

UK travellers will still be allowed to visit for short trips. However, this is on the condition that the same rights are granted to EU citizens reciprocally.

The EU Parliament’s UK Coordination Group recently drafted a resolution mandating a reciprocal visa-free agreement between the two countries once negotiations begin. This would permit travellers from both the EU and the UK to continue to enter for tourism, study, research, training and youth exchange.

Therefore it is likely that UK citizens will not Broken Link Removed like many other nationalities. On February 1st, 2019, the European Council said:

"EU ambassadors today agreed that, following Brexit, UK citizens coming to the Schengen area for a short stay (90 days in any 180 days) should be granted visa-free travel."

However, from late 2022 onwards, visitors from countries with visa-free agreements with the EU (including the UK)will not be able to enter the Schengen Area with only their passports. The EU Commission has confirmed that UK citizens will need to pay a fee to visit Europe and will need to Broken Link Removed before setting off.

Broken Link Removed is the name given to the new travel authorisation system required by British citizens and 60 other nationalities who can currently visit Europe visa-free.

Broken Link Removed

Pete

 

[Carpmart]

UK travellers will still be allowed to visit for short trips. However, this is on the condition that the same rights are granted to EU citizens reciprocally.

The EU Parliament’s UK Coordination Group recently drafted a resolution mandating a reciprocal visa-free agreement between the two countries once negotiations begin. This would permit travellers from both the EU and the UK to continue to enter for tourism, study, research, training and youth exchange.

Therefore it is likely that UK citizens will not Broken Link Removed like many other nationalities. On February 1st, 2019, the European Council said:

"EU ambassadors today agreed that, following Brexit, UK citizens coming to the Schengen area for a short stay (90 days in any 180 days) should be granted visa-free travel."

However, from late 2022 onwards, visitors from countries with visa-free agreements with the EU (including the UK)will not be able to enter the Schengen Area with only their passports. The EU Commission has confirmed that UK citizens will need to pay a fee to visit Europe and will need to Broken Link Removed before setting off.

Broken Link Removed is the name given to the new travel authorisation system required by British citizens and 60 other nationalities who can currently visit Europe visa-free.

Broken Link Removed

Pete

Thanks for this... it’s really shaping up to becoming a bit of a red tape nightmare!!

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[Molly A]

What you mean those that voted leave DIDN'T know what they voted for after all?
There's a surprise...whereas those who liked our freedom to roam , live , marry etc in 28 countries knew exactly what ending freedom of movement would bring.

As for leaders ...I assume you mean our first minister
The world has witnessed that she is of far higher intellect than her Westminster counterpart

But then that's no surprise as most spotty faced burger flippers in McDonald's could wipe the floor with the clown

Beautifully put!

 

[busby]

Busby, do you actualy follow the news? Or does it get in the way of burying your head in the sand?

To be honest I don't follow it that much,,why should I as all the experts with inside information are on this forum..Would rather be outside cycling walking or sunbathing that Sat in watching tv. BUSBY

I

 

[Tykatem]

The UK (and Republic of Ireland) has never signed up to being part of Schengen, so.

ETIAS and Brexit are coincidental. ETIAS is not a consequence of Brexit. Broken Link Removed of the region and the safety of its citizens. European Parliament representatives expressed the need for this system "By knowing who is coming to the EU before they even arrive at the border, we will be better able to stop those who may pose a threat to our citizens."

Broken Link Removed

Pete

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[Molly A]

To be honest I don't follow it that much,,why should I as all the experts with inside information are on this forum..Would rather be outside cycling walking or sunbathing that Sat in watching tv. BUSBY

I

Well, I am sunbathing on my boat, currently on a little island in the Ionian, as I have been for the last couple of months. Haven't got a tv, but there is this wonderful thing called the internet, which allows one to keep up with what is happening.in the world, including information from our own government's website. You might want to try it sometime, when you have put your bicycle away.....

 

[busby]

Well, I am sunbathing on my boat, currently on a little island in the Ionian, as I have been for the last couple of months. Haven't got a tv, but there is this wonderful thing called the internet, which allows one to keep up with what is happening.in the world, including information from our own government's website. You might want to try it sometime, when you have put your bicycle away.....

Why,,I will just read the posts on here,,,they will probably be more accurate than the media.This internet thingy would not happen to be the system that is connecting you and I to Fun or is it something else? All smoke and mirrors to me.Happy sailing..BUSBY.

 

[nicholsong]

The evidence on their computer system is their evidence and all they need to take whatever action they decide. If you made a trip to Morocco during the 90+ days then you would need to show proof this was true and convince them the Spanish just forgot to record you leaving and returning.

The Schengen situation is very clear to me. Particularly once their new system is up and running next year they will have very clear evidence of when individuals entered and it will be down to the individual to prove they are wrong. This is no different to getting a parking or speeding ticket. If you want to fight the prosecution you need to find the evidence to defend yourself. The authorities have theirs which is why they are prosecuting.

I accept that at the Schengen border the situation is clear.

But if you are asked within Schengen on day 60, with no stamp in a scanned passport, is the onus on you to show you are within 90 days? then how?

Are you legally allowed to turn it onto the authorities to prove that your alleged 60 days is false?

The same difficulties arise for those UK citizens living in an EU country with (Non-permanent) Residence Permits who are only allowed 90 days in Schengen outside their country of residence, with no record of the date of their having crossed into another country..

My questions are all about what Onus and Proof are needed, and definitive statements of the law surrounding those questions.

Geoff

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[Molly A]

Why,,I will just read the posts on here,,,they will probably be more accurate than the media.This internet thingy would not happen to be the system that is connecting you and I to Fun or is it something else? All smoke and mirrors to me.Happy sailing..BUSBY.

Thanks Busby, will do...

 

[orridge]

I accept that at the Schengen border the situation is clear.

But if you are asked within Schengen on day 60, with no stamp in a scanned passport, is the onus on you to show you are within 90 days? then how?

Are you legally allowed to turn it onto the authorities to prove that your alleged 60 days is false?

The same difficulties arise for those UK citizens living in an EU country with (Non-permanent) Residence Permits who are only allowed 90 days in Schengen outside their country of residence, with no record of the date of their having crossed into another country..

My questions are all about what Onus and Proof are needed, and definitive statements of the law surrounding those questions.

Geoff

The onus is on you to prove you were outside of Schengen for 90 days which you do by getting a stamp in your passport when you arrive at first point of entry in Schengen (yes you still can if you ask) and when you left or by having receipts that show the dates during those two periods you may have go back outside of those areas.

 

[Blue Knight]

I accept that at the Schengen border the situation is clear.

But if you are asked within Schengen on day 60, with no stamp in a scanned passport, is the onus on you to show you are within 90 days? then how?

A good point Geoff but if the passport situation is anything like the Tax system then when the authorities ask you to prove something then they expect you to deliver with the necessary evidence or face the consequences.

......hence the reason why I've had to retain every airline ticket and manifest, taxi fare, meal voucher, coffee receipts, meeting agenda for the last umpteen years.

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[Rodneyplonker]

It will be no different to going to Australia or NZ. We toured Australia and NZ for three months last winter. It was a simple 5 min exercise applying for an entry visa online! I don't remember there being any hold-ups or hassle going in and out of either country. Even though they are quite strict on immigration. Come to think of it, I rather enjoyed travelling in Europe before we joined up 40 odd years ago! It actually felt quite exciting crossing borders and changing currencies - like you were on an adventure! It has all been very bland since then... no different to driving to Wales or anywhere in the U.K! Of course, we all like different things........

Incidentally, both those countries have occasional amnesties when tourists who have overstayed are encouraged to exit within a certain time period - without punishment! I know that for a fact because our son and a few of his mates stayed for nearly two years then, during an amnesty decided to exit and received no punishment. He travelled back there for a prolonged holiday a year later to visit his then girlfriend and has since been there several times with his family... No worries... as they say!

I believe that a deal will be done once all the posturing and so called deadlines are out of the way - in the interests of all parties. I also believe that, once all the 'steam' has evaporated new treaties will be made over several years to polish-up ones that are initially agreed - for the mutual benefit of all!

Yes, always the eternal optimist am I!

 

[orridge]

One major point people seem to be missing is Visitors from 3rd Countries currently do have their passports stamped upon entry and exit into Schengen Countries so whilst you travel passport free in-between entry and exit is recorded so leave at Folkstone expect to get a passport stamp from the French border authorities this is due to be phased out with the introduction of the EES/ETIAS Solution in 2022/3.

 

[2657]

One major point people seem to be missing is Visitors from 3rd Countries currently do have their passports stamped upon entry and exit into Schengen Countries so whilst you travel passport free in-between entry and exit is recorded so leave at Folkstone expect to get a passport stamp from the French border authorities this is due to be phased out with the introduction of the EES/ETIAS Solution in 2022/3.

Wonder what will happen to Residents of Schengen countries with UK passports, will we have to show our Residency papers each time?
Which gate do we go through....all these unknowns....are they known unknowns or unknown unknowns.....who knows ........past caring.....it will all come out in the wash!

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[gus-lopez]

Is the onus on the individual to prove one is compliant with the rules, or is the onus on the authorities to prove it or the opposite?

Secondly, what evidence is needed by either side to establish the facts to prove or disprove compliance?

this is why I changed my residence document to the new card because I could see them wanting to stamp my passport & me getting arrested.

You seem to be complicating the issue. When you cross the border into the schengen region your passport is scanned and entry is recorded. Assuming you were not on the zone for the previous 90 days you have an allowance of 90 days.

When you leave the schengen area your passport is scanned. If you are over 90 days you are in trouble. When I researched this a few years ago there may be some extenuating circumstances such as illness or maybe strikes by ferry workers etc.

The system is very simple. And bloody annoying, but its what the UK voted for.

Which is perfectly acceptable to a tourist. If you are a resident in another eu state & they stamp your passport who is sorting that problem out?

An overstayed visa never goes unnoticed. The immigration authorities have registered in their databases every person that enters and leaves the Schengen, and every overstaying, even just for a day, is recorded.
Secondly, intentional or unintentional, no overstaying is left unpunish

There are now huge amounts of British citizens resident in other countries who have dredged up long dead realatives to secure passports from other EU states, not knowing what the eventual outcome was going to be after the out vote.
Many alternate passports continually. in on one out on another.
One woman I know of actually has 3 & uses them top one first,place at back next one down, etc. Been doing it since 2017 & no one has ever queried in any country why she either never appeared to arrive or why she hasn't left ?

UK travellers will still be allowed to visit for short trips. However, this is on the condition that the same rights are granted to EU citizens reciprocally.

The EU Parliament’s UK Coordination Group recently drafted a resolution mandating a reciprocal visa-free agreement between the two countries once negotiations begin. This would permit travellers from both the EU and the UK to continue to enter for tourism, study, research, training and youth exchange.

Therefore it is likely that UK citizens will not Broken Link Removed like many other nationalities. On February 1st, 2019, the European Council said:

"EU ambassadors today agreed that, following Brexit, UK citizens coming to the Schengen area for a short stay (90 days in any 180 days) should be granted visa-free travel."

However, from late 2022 onwards, visitors from countries with visa-free agreements with the EU (including the UK)will not be able to enter the Schengen Area with only their passports. The EU Commission has confirmed that UK citizens will need to pay a fee to visit Europe and will need to Broken Link Removed before setting off.

Broken Link Removed is the name given to the new travel authorisation system required by British citizens and 60 other nationalities who can currently visit Europe visa-free.

Broken Link Removed

Pete

I've read that a few times before & it never fails to amaze me how it can state the same thing in multiple different ways whilst not telling you anything you actually want to know?
Like does an Eu resident in another state require a visa? If so why ? If they don't will those purportedly enforcing the border regulations actually understand the requirements as many have no idea even now?

 

[spitfire]

Wonder what will happen to Residents of Schengen countries with UK passports, will we have to show our Residency papers each time?
Which gate do we go through....all these unknowns....are they known unknowns or unknown unknowns.....who knows ........past caring.....it will all come out in the wash!

My understanding is yes to prove you are a resident and not a tourist

 

[Tykatem]

There are now huge amounts of British citizens resident in other countries who have dredged up long dead realatives to secure passports from other EU states, not knowing what the eventual outcome was going to be after the out vote.
Many alternate passports continually. in on one out on another.
One woman I know of actually has 3 & uses them top one first,place at back next one down, etc. Been doing it since 2017 & no one has ever queried in any country why she either never appeared to arrive or why she hasn't left ?

I that that will all change when ETIAS is introduced....

ETIAS and dual citizenship: which passport to use?

Dual citizenship is well-established and will not cause problems during the Broken Link Removed. Applicants will need to use just one of their passports to apply (assuming that at least one will be from an eligible country).
The same passport will need to be used during the application process and for entering the Schengen Area. An Broken Link Removed will only be valid when presented with the corresponding passport (the details must match exactly).

Broken Link Removed

Pete

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[jumartoo]

And don't forget you'll (we'll) be using a different lane from EU (and affiliated countries) so its going to be a different system than the one we've been using for ***** years.

 

[gus-lopez]

Wonder what will happen to Residents of Schengen countries with UK passports, will we have to show our Residency papers each time?

That's why I have changed to the card. The paper isn't worth what it is printed on outside the country you live in.No one can read it ,whereas the card is a self explanatory ID card.& supposedly the same in all eu countries

 

[2657]

That's why I have changed to the card. The paper isn't worth what it is printed on outside the country you live in.No one can read it ,whereas the card is a self explanatory ID card.& supposedly the same in all eu countries

Don't think they do that in Portugal, the document is self explanatory, difficult to not understand.

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[Thedriver]

This is from the Spanish Consulate website. They give till 31/12/20 before the clock may or may not start.

View attachment 430376

Your avatar just about sums it all up, Don't you think?

 

[Thedriver]

Not really, many of our toll roads are run by the French, many buildings and apartments n London are financed by and owned by foreign interests from Asia, Australasia, Russia and the US. It’s being part of the Gloabal economy and much of the UK has been sold off including water and energy companies that are owned by foreign interests. Passport production is just a tiny example.

And the company in the UK that used to make passports has just gone bust!!

 

[The Wino]

So not fishing then? Not level playing field gov support? Not financial passporting? etc etc.

Aren't they all to do with trade (of goods and services) ? I can't see how any are to do with movement of people.

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[gus-lopez]

Don't think they do that in Portugal, the document is self explanatory, difficult to not understand.

I was told by the spanish back in january/february that the delay for the cards was due to the fact that the EU wanted a standardised one able to be interpreted in all EU states ?

 

[Coolcats]

And the company in the UK that used to make passports has just gone bust!!

That's Covid related

 

[Thedriver]

That's Covid related

Not sure about that, At this time it's hard to tell the difference, unless you are connected to the company. could it be that it's covid related because the were taken off furlow cos they had no work ? who knows.

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