100AH Lithium Battery £500 (1 Viewer)

[andycap63]

The wiring joining the battery +ve's is pretty substantial. 25mm2 at least, so equal to the spec for the Sterling B2B for that length of run (about 7m)
Picked up on a point made by Owen of BatteryMegaUK that you should never use the alternator to directly charge lithiums as it doesn't cope with the sudden shutdown of the BMS. Have I got that right? Certainly Sterling very strongly advise the use of a B2B.
Just fired off a question to the Sterling tech dept again asking if the B2B replaces or works alongside the split relay system. See what they come back with.
My concern Martin is that I might damage the existing system or alternator. I'm sure the lithium batteries will be adequately protected. Interesting point about the different charging voltages. When I get a chance I'll meter both batteries with the engine running and see what's what.

Pausim, I suspect the relay box shown provides other services or supplies data to the control panel so I'm reluctant to disconnect it.

Here's the inside of the relay system. As you can see, fairly heavy battery cables and what looks like a data cable top right?

 

[Pausim]

Picked up on a point made by Owen of BatteryMegaUK that you should never use the alternator to directly charge lithiums as it doesn't cope with the sudden shutdown of the BMS. Have I got that right? Certainly Sterling very strongly advise the use of a B2B.

I have been using a B2B for 18 months now and no sign of alternator trouble. The BMS on my Relion Li battery seems to spiral down rather than cause an immediate cut off when shutting down.

The Votronic 1212-45 not only has Li profiles but gives options for both input and output limitations and I would be very surprised if had not been designed to avoid damaging other components. It is sold to work with smart alternators. The sudden disconnection of an electromechanical relay might be more troublesome.

 

[andycap63]

Hi Pausim,

Is your original charging system still working alongside the B2B?
The Sterling 1260 B2B has lithium settings, not sure about input/output parameters.

Just had the following response from Charles Sterling,

"Hi Andrew,

The BB needs to be put between the starter and domestic battery. Nothing else between.

Do remove the existing system. The only device that may make sense is an override manual switch.

Regards"

I'd really like to know why I should remove the existing system.

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[eddie]

Hi Pausim,

Is your original charging system still working alongside the B2B?
The Sterling 1260 B2B has lithium settings, not sure about input/output parameters.

Just had the following response from Charles Sterling,

"Hi Andrew,

The BB needs to be put between the starter and domestic battery. Nothing else between.

Do remove the existing system. The only device that may make sense is an override manual switch.

Regards"

I'd really like to know why I should remove the existing system.

It will still work if you don't!

If that didn't matter, why would you need to fit the Battery to Battery charger?

When you remove it, remember to retain the supply for the fridge and the step

 

[Pausim]

Hi Pausim,

Is your original charging system still working alongside the B2B?
The Sterling 1260 B2B has lithium settings, not sure about input/output parameters.

Just had the following response from Charles Sterling,

"Hi Andrew,

The BB needs to be put between the starter and domestic battery. Nothing else between.

Do remove the existing system. The only device that may make sense is an override manual switch.

Regards"

I'd really like to know why I should remove the existing system.

I wired it as shown in the Votronic instructions for working alongside a Schaudt EBL. Basically the heavy duty positive feed from the engine battery is intercepted and then fed back into the EBL via the B2B. I believe this leaves the EBL providing the battery separation. The B2B also has a D+ feed to activate it. I think the battery separation is also deactivated by a D+ feed, so the 2 should be simultaneous.

 

[andycap63]

Looked at the Votronic unit Pausim and impressed by how it integrates with the Schaudt EBL. Looks a great unit and very good installation instructions. Unfortunately I don't think it would integrate with my cbe system and Sterlings advice was clear that nothing should interfere with their unit.

Thanks Eddie. So thinking a little simplistically (it's the only way I know!) I would need to retain a connection to the leisure batteries to power services etc but prevent the charging current reaching them.
So perhaps disable the relay (remove fuse/signal/or whole relay?) or fit a diode on the leisure battery lead allowing current to flow from them but not to them?
Think the solar industry use low voltage high amp blocking diodes.

Or am I thinking too simplistic here?

I'm sure others with cbe systems have made the switch to lithium so pretty sure it's possible, just need to find out how!!

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[HandyAndy]

All you need is somewhere for the alternator to dump it’s load when the BMS in the lithium disconnects. If you still have a lead acid starter battery in the system, this is a complete non issue.
That’s all the Megastore guy meant...

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

I'm considering replacing my ailing 3 x 160ah agm's with lithiums as I've posted elsewhere on here.
I understand a B2B charging device is required but unsure if this works alongside the existing split relay charging system or does it replace it? i.e. would I need to disable the existing alternator charging system shown below?

Andy.


View attachment 317527

Hi Andy,

You do not need to replace the split charging system if it’s a relay system and if the engine starter battery is lead acid (this will protect the alternator)

You must also check when installed he is actually getting 14.6+-0.2 at the terminals, if so it’s all fine just to fit a lithium battery onto this.

 

[eddie]

Hi Andy,

You do not need to replace the split charging system if it’s a relay system and if the engine starter battery is lead acid (this will protect the alternator)

You must also check when installed he is actually getting 14.6+-0.2 at the terminals, if so it’s all fine just to fit a lithium battery onto this.

How does a conventional relay cope with regenerative braking then?

The lithium will suck the life out of a lead acid battery when they are in parallel, and the alternator is not working in ReGen mode

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[funflair]

How does a conventional relay cope with regenerative braking then?

The lithium will suck the life out of a lead acid battery when they are in parallel, and the alternator is not working in ReGen mode

Are you talking about "smart alternator" that has not been reprogrammed for camper use so not charging all the time like conventional alternator?

Who has regenerative braking on their MoHo?

Martin

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

How does a conventional relay cope with regenerative braking then?

The lithium will suck the life out of a lead acid battery when they are in parallel, and the alternator is not working in ReGen mode

Hi,

If you have regenerative breaking you should not have a relay no matter what the batteries are.

Any vehicle with regenerative breaking MUST have a battery to battery fitted to work with lead acid or lithium.

The relay stops power from the auxiliary batteries taking power from the engine starter.

 

[eddie]

The relay stops power from the auxiliary batteries taking power from the engine starter.

A conventional split charge system put the engine and leisure battteries in parallel when the alternator generates power to the D+ terminal

A split charge relay only isolates the engine and leisure power when the engine stops

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[BatteryMegaUK]

A conventional split charge system put the engine and leisure battteries in parallel when the alternator generates power to the D+ terminal

A split charge relay only isolates the engine and leisure power when the engine stops

You're correct & for this reason you can use lithium because when the BMS refuses charge it will go to the lead acid starter battery thus protecting the alternator (this is true even when the lead acid battery is fully charged as well)

Standard alternators will not handle the BMS suddenly refusing charge unless there is a lead acid starter battery in the system.

The lithium battery will never take power from the lead acid battery as its not in the 14.06 +- 0.2 volt range , the BMS will simply not accept it.

 

[andycap63]

Checked the charging voltages of my existing batteries and got the following,

Hab mains charging 14.27v
Starter mains charging 13.69v

Hab alternator charging 14.12v
Starter alternator charging 14.28v

On start up the alternator was feeding 20 amps (100amp fused) into the hab batteries but this tailed off to 5 amps after a minute or so. So although my existing chargers are capable of feeding enough amps the voltages are unsuitable for charging lithiums.
Not overly concerned about the mains charger as the point of fitting the lithiums would be to have the ability to remain off grid, but unless I can change the voltage of the cbe system I would need to disable it and fit a B2B.

 

[eddie]

You're correct

I know, it is my job

The lithium battery will never take power from the lead acid battery as its not in the 14.06 +- 0.2 volt range , the BMS will simply not accept it.

A standard split charge system simply uses a cheap four pin, automotive relay to put the engine and the leisure battery in parallel.

99% of the relay's fitted are rated at 30 amps max

"In parallel" means that the engine and leisure batteries are connected and act as one.

If you simply add a lithium battery replacing a conventional leisure battery you are asking for trouble, as if the maximum charge rate of the Lithium is 50 amps and the Lithium is discharged it will suck the life out of a lead acid starter battery, worse trying to draw 50 amps through a 30 amp relay, installed with cable to small to handle that, and the typical "split charge" fuse is rated 20 - 25 amps so again, this will just continually cause problems

A high percentage of the European motorhomes we see are fitted with a form of B2B to overcome these issues and the problem that Regenerative braking causes on Euro Six chassis.

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[BatteryMegaUK]

Good Afternoon Funsters,

Our TN Power Lithium batteries are UN38.3 approved, meaning they have gone through vigorous testing, for those of you who don’t know what UN38.3 is here is the link to the page.

What’s lithium-ion battery UN38.3? - LiPol Battery Co. Ltd

What’s lithium-ion battery UN38.3? Lithium-ion Battery UN38.3 Test Items. UN38.3.4.1: Lithium-ion Battery Altitude Simulation. UN38.3.4.2: Lithium-ion Battery Temperature Test. UN38.3.4.3: Lithium-ion Battery Oscillation

www.lipolbattery.com

I would not recommend buying and fitting any battery which is not UN38 approved.

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

I know, it is my job


A standard split charge system simply uses a cheap four pin, automotive relay to put the engine and the leisure battery in parallel.

99% of the relay's fitted are rated at 30 amps max

"In parallel" means that the engine and leisure batteries are connected and act as one.

If you simply add a lithium battery replacing a conventional leisure battery you are asking for trouble, as if the maximum charge rate of the Lithium is 50 amps and the Lithium is discharged it will suck the life out of a lead acid starter battery, worse trying to draw 50 amps through a 30 amp relay, installed with cable to small to handle that, and the typical "split charge" fuse is rated 20 - 25 amps so again, this will just continually cause problems

A high percentage of the European motorhomes we see are fitted with a form of B2B to overcome these issues and the problem that Regenerative braking causes on Euro Six chassis.

It isn't possible for a lithium battery to "suck the life out of the lead acid battery“ as the BMS will not accept less than 14.4v and the lead acid battery can’t provide 14.4v only the alternator through the relay will.

If you link two lead acid batteries they will balance in time, if you link a lithium with lead acid batteries they simply won’t behave like lead acid.

 

[eddie]

It isn't possible for a lithium battery to "suck the life out of the lead acid battery“ as the BMS will not accept less than 14.4v and the lead acid battery can’t provide 14.4v only the alternator through the relay will.

If you link two lead acid batteries they will balance in time, if you link a lithium with lead acid batteries they simply won’t behave like lead acid.

OK So can you imagine this situation?

A discharged Leisure battery in parallel with a fully charged lead acid battery, in parallel with a thin bit of wire and a 20 amp in line fuse (which is the way that the majority of split charge systems are installed by the majority of converters)

The are in parallel because the engine has been started, D+ has closed the relay, and you have circa 14.6 VDC in the system.

I assume that this is why most of the prices on your website include a Battery to Battery charger? to avoid such potential nightmares.

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[Pausim]

It isn't possible for a lithium battery to "suck the life out of the lead acid battery“ as the BMS will not accept less than 14.4v and the lead acid battery can’t provide 14.4v only the alternator through the relay will.

If you link two lead acid batteries they will balance in time, if you link a lithium with lead acid batteries they simply won’t behave like lead acid.

I am pretty sure the BMS on my Relion battery accepts less than 14.4V. It will not achieve 100% charge at lower voltages but will still accept charge until voltage equilibrium is achieved.

 

[eddie]

Wasn't really interested to be honest, but you have piqued my interest. On your website your PDF for your batteries, under the heading "Charge Characteristics @0.2C&0.5C, 25℃" Shows a charge starting, albeit slowly, circa 12 VDC but taking the majority of the charge between 12.8 -13.5 VDC with the BMS flat lining around 14.6 VDC

Here is your link:-

 

[eddie]

I am pretty sure the BMS on my Relion battery accepts less than 14.4V. It will not achieve 100% charge at lower voltages but will still accept charge until voltage equilibrium is achieved.

It will, all Lithiums will hence the Battery Charging curve PDF from Battery Megastore

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[Millcourt]

Good Afternoon Funsters,

Our TN Power Lithium batteries are UN38.3 approved, meaning they have gone through vigorous testing, for those of you who don’t know what UN38.3 is here is the link to the page.

What’s lithium-ion battery UN38.3? - LiPol Battery Co. Ltd

What’s lithium-ion battery UN38.3? Lithium-ion Battery UN38.3 Test Items. UN38.3.4.1: Lithium-ion Battery Altitude Simulation. UN38.3.4.2: Lithium-ion Battery Temperature Test. UN38.3.4.3: Lithium-ion Battery Oscillation

www.lipolbattery.com

I would not recommend buying and fitting any battery which is not UN38 approved.

The more I read about using Lithium batteries, the more confused I get!!!

As has been previously mentioned Ion and Iron are not the same thing...…. Yes, I understand this even though my "A" level chemistry was almost 60 years ago! So, what has UN38.3 got to do with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries? The link to Li Pol battery testing standard is about Lithium Ion - known to be dangerous and inflammable (especially in some mobile-phones and aircraft). What has this got to do with LiFePO4 batteries?

I have previously posted my understanding that the certification marks required are "CE" for transportation purposes and "E" for use in a road vehicle. I took this up with the UK Vehicle Certification Agency but (as previously reported) I did not a clear response. Jim also mentioned that he was awaiting a response from the VCA and I wondered if this had resulted in any worthwhile response.

In the meantime I am delaying any move to install Lithium Batteries in our new Campscout and will shortly fit a second (identical) Lead Acid Battery alongside the provided leisure battery and hope this proves adequate to run the compressor-only fridge with the 150 watt solar panel supplementing power when off-grid.

 

[DBK]

Checked the charging voltages of my existing batteries and got the following,

Hab mains charging 14.27v
Starter mains charging 13.69v

Hab alternator charging 14.12v
Starter alternator charging 14.28v

On start up the alternator was feeding 20 amps (100amp fused) into the hab batteries but this tailed off to 5 amps after a minute or so. So although my existing chargers are capable of feeding enough amps the voltages are unsuitable for charging lithiums.
Not overly concerned about the mains charger as the point of fitting the lithiums would be to have the ability to remain off grid, but unless I can change the voltage of the cbe system I would need to disable it and fit a B2B.

At the risk of adding even further confusion I recently fitted a Sterling 60A B2B and disabled the split charge system because as Eddie says the relay connects the two sets of batteries in parallel. This would have completely negated the job of the B2B which works by exposing the leisure batteries to the optimum charging voltage which will generally be much higher than the starter battery needs, given the latter will probably be nearer to fully charged. I considered disabling the battery master for the same reason but didn't as this only provides a trickle charge so it isn't going to fry the starter battery and can still do its thing when on solar.

The instructions which come with the B2B do not mention MHs at all so none of this is covered nor is any mention of how to install it when a shunt battery monitor is fitted. I've sussed this out now but the instructions should be more comprehensive.

 

[bigtwin]

Is it just me or are others starting to get a little uneasy about the information being posted by BatteryMegaUK?

Ian

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[Caggsie1]

I want a couple of lithium batteries, but as you say bigtwin. I was confused, really not hard with tech stuff, before, even more now that Eddie has got in the mix, not a dig. We’re having work done by Dave Newell and he says eddievanbitz is the guru when it comes to lithium. I’m in quandary as Dave is supplying a B2B as we’re having another solar panel fitted which he says will allow for Lithium to be installed at later date.

Can someone please explain in very simplistic terms whether it’s a good buy or not.

 

[Wissel]

BatteryMegaUK - Out of interest, if say 2 of your batteries were connected in parallel, does the BMS do anything to stop the maximum charge rate?

Just wondering as I'm well aware how greedy LiFePo4 can be, and I can't see many motorhomes having alternators or wiring that can deal with a 100Ah draw?

I guess the BMS has some trickery to combat this?

 

[Pausim]

I guess the BMS has some trickery to combat this?

The BMS will protect the battery but I have a Votronic VCC1212-45 B2B between the LiFePO4 and the engine battery/alternator. Part of my reasoning in choosing the Votronic one was because it has ranges of settings to limit input and output, meaning I can match it to the wiring and components on both sides of it. I have set the in limit to 42A and the out limit to 38A, both comfortably within the limitations of the wiring and EBL.

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[Wissel]

The BMS will protect the battery but I have a Votronic VCC1212-45 B2B between the LiFePO4 and the engine battery/alternator. Part of my reasoning in choosing the Votronic one was because it has ranges of settings to limit input and output, meaning I can match it to the wiring and components on both sides of it. I have set the in limit to 42A and the out limit to 38A, both comfortably within the limitations of the wiring and EBL.

Great choice of charger - I have the Votronic VBCS 60/40/430

Part of my reason for choosing this model was the ability to limit charging and not kill my alternator (I have 400Ah LiFePo4 that can charge at 3C - 1200Ah).

Just wondered how the advertised battery protects the alternator without a B2B?

Also, does it have any protection against charging below zero degrees? And if not, what happens if it's a cold winter morning and someone wants to drive?

 

[eddie]

I want a couple of lithium batteries, but as you say bigtwin. I was confused, really not hard with tech stuff, before, even more now that Eddie has got in the mix, not a dig. We’re having work done by Dave Newell and he says eddievanbitz is the guru when it comes to lithium. I’m in quandary as Dave is supplying a B2B as we’re having another solar panel fitted which he says will allow for Lithium to be installed at later date.

Can someone please explain in very simplistic terms whether it’s a good buy or not.

Yes it’s a fantastic offer Jim’s arranged

 

[Pausim]

Also, does it have any protection against charging below zero degrees? And if not, what happens if it's a cold winter morning and someone wants to drive?

I believe my BMS steps in but this may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. I have added an accessible fuse to the D+ signal wire which I can easily pull if I ever thought the battery was too cold, just to make sure. I have also put a remote thermometer in the battery compartment but since this is heated, battery temperature is never a problem when the motorhome is in use. When left unoccupied the battery can get cold but it still retains a full useable charge so I would just avoid charging it until everything has warmed up.

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