100AH Lithium Battery £500 (1 Viewer)

[JockandRita]

Has anyone bitten the bullet ??

Ukbandit Graham has recently had Lithium leisure batteries fitted to his MH. He may also be able to give feedback at some stage.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Neilfg]

Ukbandit Graham has recently had Lithium leisure batteries fitted to his MH. He may also be able to give feedback at some stage.

Cheers,

Jock.

Graham Ukbandit wrote a review of the lithium's and Roadpro, it is at https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/reviews/roadpro.172/review/638/

 

[Neilfg]

Hi guys,

I'm Owen from battery megastore. It's been great reading through the conversations everyone's been having on lithium batteries.
I myself am not technical however the team here at battery megastore can help alleviate or confirm your suspicions with lithium.
If anyone has any questions on our lithium batteries, please don't hesitate to ask and I can query these with our team.

Look forward to hearing from you all.

BatteryMegaUK , been looking at lithium for awhile, but as not an essential purchase have held off. As prices are getting lower it is becoming more tempting so as you offered, some questions regarding the 100ah TNPower batteries

- Is there a more detailed description of what the built in BMS does or doesn't do? As some like Lifos have additional functionality e.g. Bluetooth...

- What monitoring/display solution do you recommend?

- If you use non lithium chargers what level of charge will you achieve compared to li chargers?

- Is there a mains and solar charger that you recommend for these batteries?

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[JockandRita]

Graham Ukbandit wrote a review of the lithium's and Roadpro, it is at https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/reviews/roadpro.172/review/638/

Thanks for the link Neil.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[denisejoe]

£3500 you could buy a lot more than 10 batteries with that

 

[DL42846]

I went for two of these. I had one on my previous MH which worked very well, and they are guaranteed for 6 years .

12V 110AH DC Power Gel Carbon Battery (DC12-110DT-CDC) (GTP12110) (N/A) - Alpha Batteries

Features Capacity ratings: 110Ah (100hr), 100Ah (20hr), Premium lead-acid technology – Gel Carbon True deep-cycle and deep-discharge capabilities Sealed & […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

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[BatteryMegaUK]

I don’t blame you for holding off, we have been doing the same thing ourselves, we only sell the leading brands so didn’t rush into the lithium market it’s something we have been working on for over 5 years before we committed to the correct partner.

I would say TN power have the very best cells, so if you look at big military battery firms that supply NATO like Saft Batteries in France you will see they have a JV with TN Power. In fact a lot of other lithium brands actually have TN cells but are assembled in low volume and the companies don’t have the same sort of facilities and resources of TN as they are the biggest battery firm in China and this price is supported by them as they want to build their brand in Europe.

For monitoring and display and indeed charging we would always recommend Victron Energy product which are recognised as the best in the industry and have a massive range to cover monitoring and charging far better than inbuilt battery monitoring. If you are also after solar and any other battery related power electronic, just have victron. If you want to buy TN power batteries and Victron together please call and we can put a competitive package together.

As for charging its not that you have to have a special lithium charger you need a charger which will charge at 14.6 +-0.2 so you are fine to charge 14.4 to 14.8 which will means you almost certainly won’t have to change your charger in most cases. Yes it is true some chargers have better algorithms than others but stick to victron and you won’t go far wrong and they have plenty of Apps for monitoring and support.

What is important is you don’t try and charge from the alternator directly as the alternator cope with the BMS shutting down instantly, they need to have the engine starter battery to be lead acid to dump power to. So only fit lithium where you have leisure/ deep cycle batteries and not as a replacement for the engine starter.

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

Also just to clarify, you can charge TN lithium from regulators, battery to battery devices, solar or chargers if in (14.6 +- 0.2 volt range) but never directly from an alternator.

If your vehicle has regenerative breaking you can't charge an auxiliary battery weather lead or lithium from your alternator unless you have a battery to battery charger.

 

[Caggsie1]

So if I decide to invest in one would it do the same as two bog standard batteries we have. Sorry but it’s still going way past me all this tech stuff.

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[BatteryMegaUK]

Hi all, these are the main benefits compared to lead acid

1. Lighter by 40%
2. Twice as much usable power or more
3. “Partial state of charge” unlike lead acid lithium does not need a full recharge every discharge
4. Will not sulphate if left discharged (most deep cycle battery failures are not failures but damaged from over discharged
5. No power tail off, lithium will give constant power from 100%-10% and further
6. Around 20 times cheaper per KW stored VS lead acid based on lifetime

 

[Foxy1956]

No wonder our local battery shop doesn't like Lithium. Unless they stock them they'll lose out. We have them on both Sue's mobility scooters.

A question? Although it says that we MUST NOT use our existing charger on the new Lithium batteries, our supplier says it is Ok to do so. Any comments welcome. Thanks.

 

[34127]

Will they charge okay from a Ctek D250SA.

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[BatteryMegaUK]

Will they charge okay from a Ctek D250SA.

Yes the Ctek D250SA will be a suitable charger.

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

So if I decide to invest in one would it do the same as two bog standard batteries we have. Sorry but it’s still going way past me all this tech stuff.

1. Lighter by 40%
2. Twice as much usable power or more
3. “Partial state of charge” unlike lead acid lithium does not need a full recharge every discharge
4. Will not sulphate if left discharged (most deep cycle battery failures are not failures but damaged from over discharged
5. No power tail off, lithium will give constant power from 100%-10% and further
6. Around 20 times cheaper per KW stored VS lead acid based on lifetime

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

Hi all,

Battery cycles PSOC and equalisation


Most batteries quote how many cycles they do, which is as you all probably know is one discharge and one recharge

What you may not know is the quoted cycles is given on discharge and full recharge which nobody ever does as most people discharge and recharge a bit at time, so the battery might not always get a full recharge.

This is called PSOC and means “partial state of charge” and if you are running a battery in this way its quoted cycles can be reduced by more than 75% if the battery is Lead acid whereas lithium is not really affected.

If you are running in PSOC you should be periodically be giving the battery an equalisation charge if you don’t the battery will fail prematurely from sulphation (and not because its faulty).

If you run in PSOC and can’t or don’t want to do equalisation charges then you should really fit a lithium battery.

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[Foxy1956]

Hi all,

Battery cycles PSOC and equalisation


Most batteries quote how many cycles they do, which is as you all probably know is one discharge and one recharge

What you may not know is the quoted cycles is given on discharge and full recharge which nobody ever does as most people discharge and recharge a bit at time, so the battery might not always get a full recharge.

This is called PSOC and means “partial state of charge” and if you are running a battery in this way its quoted cycles can be reduced by more than 75% if the battery is Lead acid whereas lithium is not really affected.

If you are running in PSOC you should be periodically be giving the battery an equalisation charge if you don’t the battery will fail prematurely from sulphation (and not because its faulty).

If you run in PSOC and can’t or don’t want to do equalisation charges then you should really fit a lithium battery.

Thank you that is really helpful.

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

Thank you that is really helpful.

Not a problem, anymore information you require on anything battery related please fire questions are way!

 

[34127]

There are a lot of positive comments about lithium batteries but in all technologies there are also negatives, so what are the negatives for these batteries.

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[Foxy1956]

Can I use an AGM battery charger to charge a Li ion Phosphate battery. It says on the charger AGM and Gel only? Thanks.

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

There are a lot of positive comments about lithium batteries but in all technologies there are also negatives, so what are the negatives for these batteries.

There are very few negatives, however here they are -

1. Can’t charge with standard alternator
2. Price
3. No scrap value (yet)

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

Can I use an AGM battery charger to charge a Li ion Phosphate battery. It says on the charger AGM and Gel only? Thanks.

This will be suitable provided it is charging around (14.6 +- 0.2 volt range)

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[BatteryMegaUK]

Thank you that is really helpful.

This is really important, for example if you have a lead acid battery with say 500 cycles quoted because of PSOC you would not be getting 500 cycles you could only be getting 75 cycles.

This does not affect lithium.

 

[HillRunner]

Hello Owen

It is great to see you answering questions on the the forum. I have another two.

Is there a reason why 2 batteries together are more expensive than a single battery? Previously there was a saving with two batteries now it has gone the other way.

There has been considerable discussion on this forum about E-marking for road use (and CE). There seems to be some lack of clarity in the regulations. What is the view of BatteryMegastore? I can only see that the battery is certified for transport (UN38.8).

Thank you

 

[Foxy1956]

This is really important, for example if you have a lead acid battery with say 500 cycles quoted because of PSOC you would not be getting 500 cycles you could only be getting 75 cycles.

This does not affect lithium.

Wow! This explains so much, our last 2 x 90a/h batteries dropped from a range of 15 miles down to 9 miles fully discharged in 8 months. We have exchanged them under warranty many times within the one year. Our Re Lion 2 x 85a/h batteries have a 5 year warranty. I wish I had come across you before. Thank you. BTW I am talking about our TGA Breeze off road disability scooter.

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[BatteryMegaUK]

Hello Owen

It is great to see you answering questions on the the forum. I have another two.

Is there a reason why 2 batteries together are more expensive than a single battery? Previously there was a saving with two batteries now it has gone the other way.

There has been considerable discussion on this forum about E-marking for road use (and CE). There seems to be some lack of clarity in the regulations. What is the view of BatteryMegastore? I can only see that the battery is certified for transport (UN38.8).

Thank you

Hi all,

Thanks very much.

2 batteries should be the same £500 each but we are charged twice for sending two boxes as we can’t combine carriage so the price should be identical. There was a saving on 2 when the promotion isn’t running (incidentally that is funded by TNpower so we have no set date on how long it will last, they want to get their brand out and exposed to the market and we decided motorhome fun was the best way)

As for E marking we spoke to BEIS this week and they assured us this is not needed and only need for “engine” start batteries “fix in” and only on batteries fitted during manufacture. They say all aftermarket is exempt and “leisure batteries are exempt for the EU battery directive period (unfortunately)”. Our policy is to do what we are told by BEIS however we do sell to very large conversion companies and they have said they would like the product E marked regardless so we most likely will.

UN38.3 is crucial and please take our warning nobody should buy any lithium without it and if they have they need to report to BEIS, and they should also seek their money back. We will post more on the UN38.3 test later as its interesting and shows how safe certified product is.

 

[HillRunner]

2 batteries should be the same £500 each but we are charged twice for sending two boxes as we can’t combine carriage so the price should be identical...

As for E marking we spoke to BEIS this week and they assured us this is not needed and only need for “engine” start batteries “fix in” and only on batteries fitted during manufacture. They say all aftermarket is exempt and “leisure batteries are exempt for the EU battery directive period (unfortunately)”.

Hello Owen
Thanks for the response.

My point about the two batteries is that the listed price without the Funster discount is 1440 but a single battery is 714.

It is good to hear that you have been in discussion with BEIS. Are you able to publish any written response from them as I am sure it would put a lot more minds at rest. The situation has been very confused and I believe that people have been put off by the uncertaintly. The thread "Sorry, another Lithium battery thread" covers some of the discussion.

I understand that E-mark certification is quite expensive and so could be off-putting for suppliers if the position is unclear.

 

[tkk]

Hi,
Lots of comparison with lead-acid on forum but is there any with Gel? or do same considerations apply re savings and performance
Tk

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[BatteryMegaUK]

Hello Owen
Thanks for the response.

My point about the two batteries is that the listed price without the Funster discount is 1440 but a single battery is 714.

It is good to hear that you have been in discussion with BEIS. Are you able to publish any written response from them as I am sure it would put a lot more minds at rest. The situation has been very confused and I believe that people have been put off by the uncertaintly. The thread "Sorry, another Lithium battery thread" covers some of the discussion.

I understand that E-mark certification is quite expensive and so could be off-putting for suppliers if the position is unclear.

Hi,

We will email BEIS and ask for a statement and if we can publish it. We have been urging BEIS to clean up the battery industry for over 4 years, they have tested our product but have been slow to prosecute.

They now know lithium product must be controlled far tighter than they ever did with lead acid and I believe there is an appetite (or fear they will be responsible) to make sure vast volumes of none compliant lithium does not ends up on the market like it has with lead acid.

Our advice to anyone buying any batteries is only to buy product that carries the factories name and you can see the factory spec on their website.

If its from somewhere in Asia with a European brand on it and a made up name don’t buy it. We know plenty of firms that turn 100ah batteries into 140ah batteries with a sticker.

You will start to see people do this with lithium the only protection is your own research, if you look you can find the TN factory its like a town, you can find the spec and the certification. If you can’t do that for any other battery (including some brands you would be shocked by) our advice is don’t buy it.

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

Hi

Please see inside the TN Power Lithium battery attached!

You might like to see the inside of a TN lithium as you can see the cells are large, this is to reduce how many welds there are. The welds are the main source of failures. The less welds the safer the batteries are to use, most 100ah lithium batteries have much smaller cells almost AA size and almost twice as many welds.

 

[BatteryMegaUK]

Hi,
Lots of comparison with lead-acid on forum but is there any with Gel? or do same considerations apply re savings and performance
Tk

Hi,

We see lithium and others within the industry see there will still be a place for lead acid AGM and lithium but not gel, lithium makes the technology redundant, the large manufacturers we speak to have stopped proposing it as an option and have stopped development a long time ago.

It’s heading for the history books, we never liked gel as AGM was much better, cheaper and more reliable!

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