Electric car batteries with five-minute charging times produced (1 Viewer)

[Coolcats]

A very interesting battery development that could revolutionise Batteries used in EV’s

Even makes Tesla’s battery technology look slow to charge, it is not a future technology it’s here and now I suspect Musk will be looking at this compared to what he is producing right now. <Broken link removed>

As reported in the Guardian


Exclusive: first factory production means recharging could soon be as fast as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles

Damian Carrington Environment editor
Published: 06:30 Tuesday, 19 January 2021
<Broken link removed>

Batteries capable of fully charging in five minutes have been produced in a factory for the first time, marking a significant step towards electric cars becoming as fast to charge as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles.
Electric vehicles are a vital part of action to tackle the climate crisis but running out of charge during a journey is a worry for drivers. The new lithium-ion batteries were developed by the Israeli company StoreDot and manufactured by Eve Energy in China on standard production lines.
StoreDot has already demonstrated its “extreme fast-charging” battery in phones, drones and scooters and the 1,000 batteries it has now produced are to showcase its technology to carmakers and other companies. Daimler, BP, Samsung and TDK have all invested StoreDot, which has raised $130m to date and was named a Bloomberg New Energy Finance Pioneer in 2020.

 

[Boris7]

Musk put money into StoreDot years ago, and partnered up with their development programme in 2018, recent developments with Tesla has already been heavily influenced by the project.

The flash technology will be a major turning point, once the price barrier is removed, they currently suggest 3 years, but it’s rumoured to be coming sooner.

They seem to be preparing for an IPO which suggests they are nearly ready to start.

 

[rod_vw]

Charging in five minutes is all very well and possibly the way to go.

BUT, how many kW would be drawn at a motorway service station to charge at this rate on a busy day? Currently (no pun intended) the national electricity distribution infrastructure cannot provide any where near enough to support this technology.

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[Boris7]

That’s absolutely correct, but the government have promised to address this.

NOT saying they will mind

 

[Sandancers]

Charging in five minutes is all very well and possibly the way to go.

BUT, how many kW would be drawn at a motorway service station to charge at this rate on a busy day? Currently (no pun intended) the national electricity distribution infrastructure cannot provide any where near enough to support this technology.

You are correct it you apply this technology to privately owned vehicles. With the same numbers of privately owned vehicles that you currently have in the UK.

But lets imagine 15 years time. Self driving cars have become the norm. The last petrol / diesel cars are in use but being scrapped at an increasing rate. Apart from ones which are kept as treasured hobbies.

Now, if you now longer need to own a car as the self driving ones are available via an app. you don't need the electrical infrastructure in each street / house to be upgraded as the self driving cars will all return to a charging hub, fed via a national grid substation for recharging.

Maybe motorway service stations would have charging points, maybe they would not be needed ?

 

[BusyBuilder]

Tesla has invested in super capacitors lately, which will be the way to go, I bought into Cap-X, who are currently in a battle with Tesla for stealing their (Cap-X) IP.

Then there are these https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201111-the-flying-car-is-here-vtols-jetpacks-and-air-taxis

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[tonyidle]

Tesla has invested in super capacitors lately, which will be the way to go, I bought into Cap-X, who are currently in a battle with Tesla for stealing their (Cap-X) IP.

That and local battery banks to deliver high charge rates are likely to be the only way to do it.

 

[Trevor Wbm]

I don't think it matters how or where the charging power is delivered, the additionally required electricity has still got to be created and delivered, so everything in the system will need upgrading from the power station to the plug socket. That said I can't see upgrading every dwelling from single phase to three phase being viable, so hubs, i.e. ex petrol stations, might be the way forward.

Broadband is a reasonable comparison - unless you've got fibre to the house, your Broadband speed will be super-fast to the cabinet at the end of the street, then resticted to whatever the copper wire in to your house can manage.

 

[joe and sue]

What about the emissions created by aircraft, how are these to be addressed, can't see those being electric!!

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[tonyidle]

I don't think it matters how or where the charging power is delivered, the additionally required electricity has still got to be created and delivered, so everything in the system will need upgrading from the power station to the plug socket. That said I can't see upgrading every dwelling from single phase to three phase being viable, so hubs, i.e. ex petrol stations, might be the way forward.

Broadband is a reasonable comparison - unless you've got fibre to the house, your Broadband speed will be super-fast to the cabinet at the end of the street, then resticted to whatever the copper wire in to your house can manage.

Local storage spreads the load. An existing domestic supply would cope perfectly well. On the other hand it's hard to imagine many users would need to fast charge at home.

 

[hymerman]

A possible problem could be the life of the battery, all well and good having quick charging etc, not so good if after a few years the battery is duff and costs many thousands of pounds to replace.

 

[John Barrett]

A possible problem could be the life of the battery, all well and good having quick charging etc, not so good if after a few years the battery is duff and costs many thousands of pounds to replace.

Many years ago I used to fast charge the 7.2v battery in my lad's model 4x4 in about 7 minutes. The current went through a very large resistor which had to be kept an eye on before everything exploded!

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[Coolcats]

A possible problem could be the life of the battery, all well and good having quick charging etc, not so good if after a few years the battery is duff and costs many thousands of pounds to replace.

Hydrogen is still a possible solution.

 

[pappajohn]

Charging in five minutes is all very well and possibly the way to go.

BUT, how many kW would be drawn at a motorway service station to charge at this rate on a busy day? Currently (no pun intended) the national electricity distribution infrastructure cannot provide any where near enough to support this technology.

I imagine the charge point stations will eventually have their own dedicated substations. 11000volts in and whatever out without disrupting any other power users.
Bearing in mind, charge points will be as, if not more, numerous as they are for petrol/diesel today

 

[hymerman]

I agree with 'Coolcats' and think that Hydrogen will become more prominent and the way to go.
I know that we are now off topic but it is worth discussing at some point.
Hardly any environmental damage and the only waste product is pure water.
Trouble with battery technology is that it is incredibly expensive to produce with also a relatively short lifespan before replacement of the battery required.
They also require a finite supply of rare earth elements to produce them whilst Hydrogen is limitless and the most abundant element in the universe.

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[68c]

What about the emissions created by aircraft, how are these to be addressed, can't see those being electric!!

Ideas being looked at are electric tugs to get the aircraft from the stand to the taxiway near the runway, but still a good idea to run the engines for a short time to ensure all OK before take off. Using booster electric engines during take off. Electric actuators for the flight controls and landing gear rather than the current hydraulics may save weight and so reduce emissions. High flying airliners are normally above the clouds, in daytime solar cells may become feasible to power the electric engines as an augmentation to the gas turbines.

 

[two]

Ultra fast charging is worth a look
but I wonder about an interchangeable battery that you rent.
Just roll-up and swap out (one or two) for fully charged units.
Start by agreeing a standard...

 

[Sandancers]

I agree with 'Coolcats' and think that Hydrogen will become more prominent and the way to go.
I know that we are now off topic but it is worth discussing at some point.
Hardly any environmental damage and the only waste product is pure water.
Trouble with battery technology is that it is incredibly expensive to produce with also a relatively short lifespan before replacement of the battery required.
They also require a finite supply of rare earth elements to produce them whilst Hydrogen is limitless and the most abundant element in the universe.

Hydrogen has it's own problems.

One word, Hindenburg !

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[hymerman]

Hindenburg as suggested by 'Sandancers' was a huge balloon of Hydrogen floating above the capsule, absolutely nothing to equate to current technology, I find it difficult to take his response seriously.
Petrol also happens to be explosive.
I doubt very much that as Hydrogen technology develops that we are going to be driving around with a huge balloon of Hydrogen floating above the vehicle as was the case with Hindenburg.
Hydrogen wasn't used as the fuel in the case of Hindenburg , it was used as the means to lift the capsule as it's lighter than air.
Work is being carried out at pace to develop a usable Hydrogen fuel cell, much of it in the UK, a friend of mine is working on it.

 

[pappajohn]

Hindenburg as suggested by 'Sandancers' was a huge balloon of Hydrogen floating above the capsule, absolutely nothing to equate to current technology, I find it difficult to take his response seriously.
Petrol also happens to be explosive.
I doubt very much that as Hydrogen technology develops that we are going to be driving around with a huge balloon of Hydrogen floating above the vehicle as was the case with Hindenburg.
Work is currently being done at pace to develop the Hydrogen fuel cell.

We have in the past....... OK, it was town gas.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0552315/mediaviewer/rm1907648256/

 

[68c]

I agree with 'Coolcats' and think that Hydrogen will become more prominent and the way to go.
I know that we are now off topic but it is worth discussing at some point.
Hardly any environmental damage and the only waste product is pure water.
Trouble with battery technology is that it is incredibly expensive to produce with also a relatively short lifespan before replacement of the battery required.
They also require a finite supply of rare earth elements to produce them whilst Hydrogen is limitless and the most abundant element in the universe.

I agree, hydrogen power via fuel cells does seem possible. Once we have enough nuclear reactors on line should be a doddle to make the hydrogen......what could go wrong?

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[autorouter]

Rough estimate, 50 kWh in 5 minutes (1/20 of an hour) is 1000000 watts. Yes, 1 Megawatt.

 

[Sandancers]

Rough estimate, 50 kWh in 5 minutes (1/20 of an hour) is 1000000 watts. Yes, 1 Megawatt.

Not sure I understand this.

The size of the cables taking the power into the car will be rated to carry the maximum current the vehicle will demand at it's charging voltage.

If the range of the car needs 50KW (I have no idea how much power is required to drive 100 miles, for instance) then you need to put that amount of energy into the batteries. If you have to do it in 5 minutes your going to need thicker cables than if you do it in 10 hours.

 

[Sandancers]

Hindenburg as suggested by 'Sandancers' was a huge balloon of Hydrogen floating above the capsule, absolutely nothing to equate to current technology, I find it difficult to take his response seriously.
Petrol also happens to be explosive.
I doubt very much that as Hydrogen technology develops that we are going to be driving around with a huge balloon of Hydrogen floating above the vehicle as was the case with Hindenburg.
Hydrogen wasn't used as the fuel in the case of Hindenburg , it was used as the means to lift the capsule as it's lighter than air.
Work is being carried out at pace to develop a usable Hydrogen fuel cell, much of it in the UK, a friend of mine is working on it.

Yes, the Hindenburg was not really serious.

But still the vehicle has to carry Hydrogen in a pressurised fuel tank. About 30 years ago British Gas researched ways of producing tanks to store hydrogen in vehicles. All sorts were tried, from metal to fibre-glass, they all held the pressure OK.

But there was always the question of what would happen when an HGV hit the back of a stationary car which had one of these pressurised hydrogen tanks in it.

Hydrogen is easier to ignite and just as explosive as the gas which comes into your house.

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[Coolcats]

I imagine the charge point stations will eventually have their own dedicated substations. 11000volts in and whatever out without disrupting any other power users.
Bearing in mind, charge points will be as, if not more, numerous as they are for petrol/diesel today

A local Tesla Garage that has opened and installed about 8 charging points has also installed a small substation so you’d probably right.

 

[Chrisreay]

Hindenburg as suggested by 'Sandancers' was a huge balloon of Hydrogen floating above the capsule, absolutely nothing to equate to current technology, I find it difficult to take his response seriously.
Petrol also happens to be explosive.
I doubt very much that as Hydrogen technology develops that we are going to be driving around with a huge balloon of Hydrogen floating above the vehicle as was the case with Hindenburg.
Hydrogen wasn't used as the fuel in the case of Hindenburg , it was used as the means to lift the capsule as it's lighter than air.
Work is being carried out at pace to develop a usable Hydrogen fuel cell, much of it in the UK, a friend of mine is working on it.

They've been working on hydrogen fuel cells for a long time but with limited resources. The technology is developed and needs two things to expand to useable levels (1) A simple method of delivering hydrogen on a form which can be loaded into a vehicle and (2) a safe form of containment in the vehicle. Neither are insurmountable but do need some more investment or tax advantages to become commercial. We can produce hydrogen in desert areas which don't have any other real benefits and the solar devices which split water into H and O may increase the viability of the desert environments by creating shade and bring riches to very poor areas. With hydrogen we have a non-polluting energy source with the potential to be taxed like hydrocarbons and accessed in service stations which make their money more from sales other than fuel. The infrastructure could remain viable until we do get autonomous vehicles. Even then the desirability of individual transport may keep us addicted to owning vehicles even when the financial case is absurd (as in owning a motorhome when we can't drive anywhere!)

 

[autorouter]

Hydrogen has it's own problems.

One word, Hindenburg !

A similar disaster happened at Manchester airport some years ago. A plane was stationary on the ground, and the engine caught fire, and it spread to the rest of the plane. Due to a delayed evacuation, many people died. That was aviation fuel (kerosene). Nobody suggested banning it.

LPG is actually used as an explosive in some ground attack munitions. Is that banned?

Hydrogen is no more dangerous than any other fuel.

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[Sandancers]

A similar disaster happened at Manchester airport some years ago. A plane was stationary on the ground, and the engine caught fire, and it spread to the rest of the plane. Due to a delayed evacuation, many people died. That was aviation fuel (kerosene). Nobody suggested banning it.

LPG is actually used as an explosive in some ground attack munitions. Is that banned?

Hydrogen is no more dangerous than any other fuel.

What amount of hydrogen and at what pressure would the hydrogen be stored at in a family car, do you know?

Like for instance, lets say a small cylinder filled to 300B, how far would that get you ?

 

[autorouter]

Not sure I understand this.

The size of the cables taking the power into the car will be rated to carry the maximum current the vehicle will demand at it's charging voltage.

If the range of the car needs 50KW (I have no idea how much power is required to drive 100 miles, for instance) then you need to put that amount of energy into the batteries. If you have to do it in 5 minutes your going to need thicker cables than if you do it in 10 hours.

50kWh is the amount of energy stored in the battery. It's a ballpark figure - a BMW i3 is 43kWh for example. The rate of delivery of that energy (ie the power in watts) is huge. Usually from a standard 7kW charger it's several hours. A Tesla fast charger, 22kW, is three times faster, but still takes a couple of hours at least to fill an empty battery.

So to fill an empty 50kWh battery in 5 minutes will require a charger with a power of 1000 kilowatts. At the standard 400V, that's 2500 amps. At an elevated voltage of 4000V, that's a more manageable 250A. Yes, it's possible to construct a charger that will do that. But I think it's a serious problem to install a bank of a dozen of these and supply them with enough power from the Grid

 

[Sandancers]

50kWh is the amount of energy stored in the battery. It's a ballpark figure - a BMW i3 is 43kWh for example. The rate of delivery of that energy (ie the power in watts) is huge. Usually from a standard 7kW charger it's several hours. A Tesla fast charger, 22kW, is three times faster, but still takes a couple of hours at least to fill an empty battery.

So to fill an empty 50kWh battery in 5 minutes will require a charger with a power of 1000 kilowatts. At the standard 400V, that's 2500 amps. At an elevated voltage of 4000V, that's a more manageable 250A. Yes, it's possible to construct a charger that will do that. But I think it's a serious problem to install a bank of a dozen of these and supply them with enough power from the Grid

If the bank of chargers was at a National Grid substation then loads of power available. But no way could you get that from existing infrastructure down your street.

I would not like to lift a flexible cable around which could carry 250A or more! 4000v ? No thanks, the safety considerations would be horrendous and the insulation on the cables would be substantial. They would be heavy, man !

And not forgetting there would be an amount of cable internally to the car of the same size.

Shares in copper producing Companies look attractive suddenly.

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