Seat belt (1 Viewer)

Denbo

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At the moment our motorhome has 6 seat belts 2 at the front and four in the middle, is it possible to add 2 in the u shaped lounge at the back

Thanks Dennis ::bigsmile:
 

Geo

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Yes is the short answer
The problems you will face are actually finding someone to do it, although its not technically difficult, a good few folk think you need chassis anchors etc and are trying to restrain a Sherman Tank. this is not so, you would be suprised at just how littleis used in the way of seat belt mounts in many vehicles
Also complying with current MoT PASS standards re the type of belt reqd for the seat type and possition you have in mind
Notice I said "PASS" standards, as there are no construction standards to work to. and only minimal testing ie a quick pull on the belt is all that is reqd. is the belt is actually capable of restraining a person? is a question for the constructor not the tester
Geo
Have Fun HERE
Not MoT guide use
Inspection manual for Class 4 go to contents section 5 Seat belts, you will have trouble understanding it for sure
 
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Denbo

Denbo

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Seat belts

Thanks Geo

::bigsmile:

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Nov 18, 2011
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Yes is the short answer
The problems you will face are actually finding someone to do it, although its not technically difficult, a good few folk think you need chassis anchors etc and are trying to restrain a Sherman Tank. this is not so, you would be suprised at just how littleis used in the way of seat belt mounts in many vehicles
Also complying with current MoT PASS standards re the type of belt reqd for the seat type and possition you have in mind
Notice I said "PASS" standards, as there are no construction standards to work to. and only minimal testing ie a quick pull on the belt is all that is reqd. is the belt is actually capable of restraining a person? is a question for the constructor not the tester
Geo
Have Fun HERE
Not MoT guide use
Inspection manual for Class 4 go to contents section 5 Seat belts, you will have trouble understanding it for sure
thanks Geo I am fitting some in my van I will be fitting through the floor and bolting to the chases I that a bit over over engineering :thumb:
 

Geo

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thanks Geo I am fitting some in my van I will be fitting through the floor and bolting to the chases I that a bit over over engineering :thumb:

I found some pics of a basic car"Saxo Rear"mounting points, thin bent tin and a captive nut with 3 or 4 spot welds
Interestingly the impact force required for your body to rip out even this type of minimal mounting would kill you anyway:Doh:
We build and race in motor sport so fitting saftey belts come second nature nothing more than a 17mm nut and bolt and a large spreading washer the other side of the floor pan is all we need
Im sorry to say these belt mounting are tested to the extreme far to often in our sport and all without any belt mounting failures in over 30 + years and 100s of real life crash tests
Crash pic was only last weekend, Richards car uses the same bolt and washer method for his belts he walked away with only his pride hurt:thumb:
Geo
 

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TheBig1

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Geo I'm not disputing either the MOT requirements nor the motorsport application. what I find worrying is the fact that people would rely on a fixing into a plywood floor and expect a lightweight plywood seat not to disintegrate in a collision. the downwards forces applied by an average person in a collision are massive. in motorsport you have a specially designed bucket seat. in a car the frame is made of steel and bolted to the steel floor

the minimum you see fitted by a manufacturer are a box section reinforcing frame to support the passenger and mounts through the floor and into a steel cross member on the chassis. dont forget, if you fit a safety device, you must consider the implications if its used and relied on in an accident. in effect you can expect to be legally liable if somebody gets injured whilst relying on a home made seatbelt arrangement. the vehicle insurer will never pay out if it wasnt designed and fitted by an engineer who has calculated strengths and loading requirements

you have a legal obligation to notify your insurers if you structurally alter your vehicle by adding seat belted travelling seats. they have the right to refuse to insure or void insurance if not notified and agreed

just a small insight into the real world implications

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mentaliss

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Yes is the short answer
The problems you will face are actually finding someone to do it, although its not technically difficult, a good few folk think you need chassis anchors etc and are trying to restrain a Sherman Tank. this is not so, you would be suprised at just how littleis used in the way of seat belt mounts in many vehicles
Also complying with current MoT PASS standards re the type of belt reqd for the seat type and possition you have in mind
Notice I said "PASS" standards, as there are no construction standards to work to. and only minimal testing ie a quick pull on the belt is all that is reqd. is the belt is actually capable of restraining a person? is a question for the constructor not the tester
Geo
Have Fun HERE
Not MoT guide use
Inspection manual for Class 4 go to contents section 5 Seat belts, you will have trouble understanding it for sure

Let me say here that I respect your position as an MOT Tester,etc and your absolutely right you can if you possess the imagination and skill fit seat belts just about anywhere within a motorhome/van ( front facing) however that's not the real issue, the issue here is that 'your' changing the spec' of the vehicle therefore you must inform your insurance company and from my experience will not accept such a change unless it has all the crash test certificates...for instance where rock & roll seat/bed is installed in a camper van conversion
 

Geo

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Geo I'm not disputing either the MOT requirements nor the motorsport application. what I find worrying is the fact that people would rely on a fixing into a plywood floor and expect a lightweight plywood seat not to disintegrate in a collision. the downwards forces applied by an average person in a collision are massive. in motorsport you have a specially designed bucket seat. in a car the frame is made of steel and bolted to the steel floor

the minimum you see fitted by a manufacturer are a box section reinforcing frame to support the passenger and mounts through the floor and into a steel cross member on the chassis. dont forget, if you fit a safety device, you must consider the implications if its used and relied on in an accident. in effect you can expect to be legally liable if somebody gets injured whilst relying on a home made seatbelt arrangement. the vehicle insurer will never pay out if it wasnt designed and fitted by an engineer who has calculated strengths and loading requirements

you have a legal obligation to notify your insurers if you structurally alter your vehicle by adding seat belted travelling seats. they have the right to refuse to insure or void insurance if not notified and agreed

just a small insight into the real world implications

Why do you feel the need to attribute your thoughts to what i have actuallyposted:Doh:
I am perfectly aware of the real world, I live and still work in it on a daily basis
My post starts, with the difficulty a person might have finding someone to undertake such a modification, goes on to show that a real world Citroen mount is nothing more than a bit of bent tin
And that the world is full of people who think they know more than they actually do by suggesting girders are a requirement for seat belt mounting, case proven thank you:RollEyes:

The fact that you find it worrying comes as no surprise to me either

Please highlight my suggestion that plywood floors or seats would do as mounts and also please highlight the box sections used in the first two pics of the Citroen manufactured and designed real world mounting points
I am both disappointed and frustrated by your implied suggestion that i said anything other than what are demonstrable facts
Geo
 

TheBig1

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Hi Geo my post was directed in part to you as you seemed to imply that a simple bolt and washer arrangement, as fitted to Richard's seatbelt (possibly 5 point harness) would suffice in a collision.

yes Citroen and many other manufacturers rely solely on a piece of bent tin to anchor seat belts, but those are welded to the monocoque chassis and crash testing has proved them adequate. No I am not suggesting "girders" are required to provide a suitable mounting point or seat frame.

Do you as an automotive engineer actually recommend fitting a seatbelt to an unreinforced seat mounted into a plywood floor with a simple bolt and washer? That was the implication I read into what you posted, by explaining how weak some installations are, that actually pass MOT requirements.

I wholeheartedly agree that finding anyone prepared to do the job professionally is highly unlikely. Its not just a matter of buying belts off ebay and bolting them in, is it?

Originally Posted by Geo Link Removed
Yes is the short answer
The problems you will face are actually finding someone to do it, although its not technically difficult, [HI]a good few folk think you need chassis anchors etc and are trying to restrain a Sherman Tank. this is not so, you would be suprised at just how littleis used in the way of seat belt mounts in many vehicles[/HI]
Also complying with current MoT PASS standards re the type of belt reqd for the seat type and possition you have in mind
Notice I said "PASS" standards, as there are no construction standards to work to. and only minimal testing ie a quick pull on the belt is all that is reqd. is the belt is actually capable of restraining a person? is a question for the constructor not the tester
Geo
Have Fun HERE
Not MoT guide use
Inspection manual for Class 4 go to contents section 5 Seat belts, you will have trouble understanding it for sure

May just be how I read the post though, as maybe you were not implying what it seems:thumb:

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Trikeman

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Hi, I don't know if this will help - our MoHo has seatbelts on the side facing seats in the U shaped lounge (as well as the front lounge). Looking through the paperwork they were specified at build. It consists of sub-frames (AlKo) fitted to/through the floor panels and onto the main body sub-frame.
The sub-frames have approval plates on them (not too sure if that just means the sub-frames) but the paperwork states the mountings are also 'approved'.

Regards,

Trikeman. :winky:
 

Minxy

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Hi, I don't know if this will help - our MoHo has seatbelts on the side facing seats in the U shaped lounge (as well as the front lounge). Looking through the paperwork they were specified at build. It consists of sub-frames (AlKo) fitted to/through the floor panels and onto the main body sub-frame.
The sub-frames have approval plates on them (not too sure if that just means the sub-frames) but the paperwork states the mountings are also 'approved'.

Regards,

Trikeman. :winky:

Please, as a matter of urgency REMOVE the side facing seat belts so that NO ONE is tempted to use them! :Eeek: They can cause a hell of a lot of injuries if someone is using them in an accident! :whatthe:
 

Minxy

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Geo: whilst you may NOT have intended to give the impression that it was 'simple' to do, that is what came across and I read it the same as others appear to have. :Smile:

Dennis: regardless of whether you could physically put in the extra seatbelts, if you do it yourself or someone agrees to do it for you (very very unlikely!), you cannot ignore:

Safety - there is NO strength in the rear wall of a motorhome so if you were rear-ended I hate to think what would happen to the passengers there, even in a low speed shunt. As for how the seat belts are secured to the vehicle, and the strength of the seating itself, that has been explained above.

Weight - you intend, I assume, to carry 8 people and I would question whether you have the payload and/or axle capacity to be able to do so.

Insurance - again this has been covered above.

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Trikeman

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Please, as a matter of urgency REMOVE the side facing seat belts so that NO ONE is tempted to use them! :Eeek: They can cause a hell of a lot of injuries if someone is using them in an accident! :whatthe:

Hi Minx,
yep - agree on the actual use issues.

They are fitted but we don't use them as seatbelts per-se (as in to secure anyone). However, they are great as we use them under the seating to secure the awning, chairs and tool box etc - very good for that and we are confident that all that stuff would be reasonably secure should the worse happen.

When I first saw them I thought, why? The one side is behind the toilet/shower room so wouldn't do much as on any impact the passenger would be through the 'wall'. The opposite side is behind the wardrobe. :Doh:
However, maybe the original owner had some other 'objectives' as one can get handcuffs to fit on seatbelt brackets.
:Eeek::roflmto:

Regards,

Trikeman.:winky:
 
Nov 18, 2011
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all this scare mongering pisses me right off the guy ask can it be don
get in touch with these guys
I have talked to these today se link at botum regarding this mater if crash testing was the case there would be no classic cars left as they would have to be destroyed in the crash test.
once fitted they can be inspected by an approved company of witch there are many that is all my insurance requires .

but at the end of the day they must as a minimum comply with construction and use regulation once they have been fitted and approve you insurance will ad them as a modification
and then just changing no of seat from 2 to 6 with DVLA and all they want is that they are cheeked at an approved MOT stanchion
and at the end of the day any seat belt is beater than no seat belt

http://www.seatbeltservice.co.uk/

http://www.transportsfriend.org/road/seat.html
 
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TheBig1

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I am not scare mongering Bill, I am just putting a few facts out into the discussion. Personally I have previously fitted seatbelts in the rear of vans I have converted so have actually dealt with the issues, both safety and legal

Yes you can fit seat belts if thats what you wish and the something is better than nothing argument has some merit. however not everyone that reads this forum has the first clue about engineering a safety frame for the seat or making a secure connection, sleeved through the floor to the chassis for the belt anchor points.

what worries me is the idea that somebody may interpret the idea that you can just bolt seatbelts in over a weekend as a DIY job without considering the implications. Once youve seen a coachbuilt motorhome that has had a high energy impact (crash) then you would see how inherently weak the plywood floor and furniture is. my family mean so much to me that I will if required take an extra vehicle so that I have enough safe belts to carry everyone. each to their own though as advice only has a value if people are prepared to listen and understand

i hope nobody takes this personally, as it is not meant as an insult to anyones intelligence or capabilities. just as i say the important facts of a much more complicated issue than most realise

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Please, as a matter of urgency REMOVE the side facing seat belts so that NO ONE is tempted to use them! :Eeek: They can cause a hell of a lot of injuries if someone is using them in an accident! :whatthe:
they can cause serious injury's but surly die it the passenger was to retile around inside the van or even ejected out on to the road through the wind screen killing the driver or front seat passenger on the way
then being flattened by a grate big artick passing in the other direction :Eeek:
even at low speed you stand to die or very serious injury's if you fly forward even two feat if not restrained any restraint is beater than no restraint keep them in till you find a beater alternative
:thumb:
 
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seatbelts !!!.....woudn't want to be the passenger :RollEyes:

Broken Link Removed
don't tink seat belt would help there :Eeek:
but the wind out awning look in good nick where is it now I wonder?

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Minxy

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they can cause serious injury's but surly die it the passenger was to retile around inside the van or even ejected out on to the road through the wind screen killing the driver or front seat passenger on the way
then being flattened by a grate big artick passing in the other direction :Eeek:
even at low speed you stand to die or very serious injury's if you fly forward even two feat if not restrained any restraint is beater than no restraint keep them in till you find a beater alternative
:thumb:

Not in this case bill ... using a side facing seatbelt can cause serious injuries and that is why there is no legal requirement to fit seatbelts to these type of seats. If you are thrown towards the front of a vehicle whilst in a sideways seating position with a seatbelt on it can cause serious internal and spinal injuries as we are not meant to bend that way - a seatbelt would hold the bottom of your trunk in place and allow the rest of you to bend to the side, whereas without a seatbelt your whole trunk would 'lay' to the side, still not ideal but certainly no where as bad as being 'bent' in a way you are not meant to be.

http://www.cssginfo.co.uk/seat-belts
 
Nov 18, 2011
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Not in this case bill ... using a side facing seatbelt can cause serious injuries and that is why there is no legal requirement to fit seatbelts to these type of seats. If you are thrown towards the front of a vehicle whilst in a sideways seating position with a seatbelt on it can cause serious internal and spinal injuries as we are not meant to bend that way - a seatbelt would hold the bottom of your trunk in place and allow the rest of you to bend to the side, whereas without a seatbelt your whole trunk would 'lay' to the side, still not ideal but certainly no where as bad as being 'bent' in a way you are not meant to be.

http://www.cssginfo.co.uk/seat-belts
every one has difrent vews on this but I still say till he has a nother alternative beater one seriously injured than two dead that watt would happen if there was no seat belt worn and the passenger hit the front seat passenger both of then die
 

Puddleduck

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Personally i would never use a seat as a travelling seat unless it was designated as such by the manufacturer / converter and had a seat belt fitted. I never understood why a 4 berth motorhome would only have 2 travelling seats (driver and passenger).

Mind some of the designated travelling seats aren't so hot either with little or no leg room. Just something else to check out.

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TheBig1

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were all missing an important second option here....gaffa tape:ROFLMAO:

just get the wife, or kids to sit in the seat and use a whole roll of gaffa tape to stick them in place. good stuff gaffa tape :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Peter JohnsCross MH

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I have thanked those posters where I think they have given good advice, we as a business would NOT fit seatbelts unless the vehicle was aproved by the makers.

1. If there was an accident we could be sued for millions and our public liability insurance would not cover us.

2. The owners insurance would be null and void if they had not been notified of the changes to the vehicles specification

Peter

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Geo

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Yes is the short answer
The problems you will face are actually finding someone to do it, although its not technically difficult, a good few folk think you need chassis anchors etc and are trying to restrain a Sherman Tank. this is not so, you would be suprised at just how littleis used in the way of seat belt mounts in many vehicle[/COLOR]s
Also complying with current MoT PASS standards re the type of belt reqd for the seat type and possition you have in mind
Notice I said "PASS" standards, as there are no construction standards to work to. and only minimal testing ie a quick pull on the belt is all that is reqd. is the belt is actually capable of restraining a person? is a question for the constructor not the tester
Geo
Have Fun HERE
Not MoT guide use
Inspection manual for Class 4 go to contents section 5 Seat belts, you will have trouble understanding it for sure


For the technically challenged and blind out there, I will quote myself and explain in simple English useing colours to assist
This is the most important bit and it means YES it IS possible

This bit means I think you will struggle to find anyone "Like Johns Cross for instance to do it for you
This means it not technically difficult, mainly because its not
This means you would be surprised at how weak the majority of mounting actually need to be, this is because ther is little point making a mount that will take 5 Ton when 1.5 ton will kill you anyway
You may also like to note I made no comment as to the wisdom of doing this as I was not asked that question
You may also like to note despite reading my posts 15 times I cant seem to find any reference to plywood mounting or Insurance.
However in the interest of fairness if im stopped in the street tomorrow and asked "do you know where Halfords is? I will refrain from saying yes its round the corner, Instead I shall say "Yes But you dont want to go there you should go here instead, and whatever you were buying you dont want one of those these are much better
And if you have got side facing seats get them out asap they have killed? How many ? remind me:RollEyes:
Cant anyone here answer a simple question, I did and i stick by every word, and for the most you have all put your own totally irrelevent spin on it
The short answer still remains Yes you can it really is possible ther are numourous companies the length and breadth of the UK making a living from doing it:cry::cry::cry:
 
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Geo

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I have thanked those posters where I think they have given good advice, we as a business would NOT fit seatbelts unless the vehicle was aproved by the makers.

1. If there was an accident we could be sued for millions and our public liability insurance would not cover us.

2. The owners insurance would be null and void if they had not been notified of the changes to the vehicles specification

Peter

Peter I have not thanked those posts I thought a waste of space but understand the business ethics of going with the flow:winky:
 

Minxy

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Cant anyone here answer a simple question, I did and i stick by every word, and for the most you have all put your own totally irrelevent spin on it
The short answer still remains Yes you can it really is possible ther are numourous companies the length and breadth of the UK making a living from doing it:cry::cry::cry:
Ooooo...eeeerrrrrr ... present for you below as you seem to have spat yours out! :roflmto::winky:

You'll have to pardon us 'mere mortals' for making irrelevant comments (in your eyes) but in my ever so humble opinion they are not irrelevant to the overall subject of retrofitting seatbelts. I would also like to proffer that this is a forum, not a technical helpdesk, so if we think additional information will be helpful to the OP, in case he hasn't considered the 'whole picture', then it is offered to help and assist in his decision making process of whether it not only CAN be done but also where it is WISE to do so. :thumb:

As for there being numerous companies that can do this - please do enlighten us! :Smile:

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Puddleduck

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Strangely enough I was at a dealer yesterday and someone was asking for him to fit extra seatbelts. His reply was that although the mounting points etc were there as extra seat belts were a option at order stage when the motorhome in question was new he was not able to retrofit because he could not obtain the seat belts from the manufacturer (he didn't say if that was the base vehicle manufacturer or converter) and he would not fit seat belts from a scrap yard or any other source.

His customer was not a happy bunny.
 

Geo

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Ooooo...eeeerrrrrr ... present for you below as you seem to have spat yours out! :roflmto::winky:

You'll have to pardon us 'mere mortals' for making irrelevant comments (in your eyes) but in my ever so humble opinion they are not irrelevant to the overall subject of retrofitting seatbelts. I would also like to proffer that this is a forum, not a technical helpdesk, so if we think additional information will be helpful to the OP, in case he hasn't considered the 'whole picture', then it is offered to help and assist in his decision making process of whether it not only CAN be done but also where it is WISE to do so. :thumb:

As for there being numerous companies that can do this - please do enlighten us! :Smile:

Enlighten you:Eeek: Your confusing me with JJ im an Engineer, he's the Magician::bigsmile:
 

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