Mot class for small pick ups with 5th wheel (7 Viewers)

impreza22

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Hi everyone
Just looking for some advice on what class 4,7 or hgv mots where small pick ups
with a 5 th wheel conversion done.
Sorry if this question has been asked before but would like up to date info.

So my question is which class are these vehicles tested to when it comes to mot time,something like a Nissan navara or landy to tow a large caravan for leisure .

If I was to use one for commercial reasons will it make much difference to mot class.

Great site by the way and any advice will be appreciated
 

Landy lover

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Hi everyone
Just looking for some advice on what class 4,7 or hgv mots where small pick ups
with a 5 th wheel conversion done.
Sorry if this question has been asked before but would like up to date info.

So my question is which class are these vehicles tested to when it comes to mot time,something like a Nissan navara or landy to tow a large caravan for leisure .

If I was to use one for commercial reasons will it make much difference to mot class.

Great site by the way and any advice will be appreciated

Mine goes through on a normal test every year - I have heard some people who have had to remove the 5th wheel hitch for the MOT (its only 4 pins ) - Geo has commented on this in the past - maybe he will again but he stated normal MOT for the vehicle. The fifth wheel hitch I believe could be classified as a load - MOT rules I understand state the vehicle should be unladen. Very much down to the MOT Tester.
 
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2657

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Mine goes through on a normal test every year - I have heard some people who have had to remove the 5th wheel hitch for the MOT (its only 4 pins ) - Geo has commented on this in the past - maybe he will again but he stated normal MOT for the vehicle. The fifth wheel hitch I believe could be classified as a load - MOT rules I understand state the vehicle should be unladen. Very much down to the MOT Tester.

I'll second that, normal mot and at different locations.

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impreza22

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I'll second that, normal mot and at different locations.

Thanks for the advice everyone
Iam even more confused as today I decided to ring VOSA and ask them, I know they are the powers that be but sometimes the call staff end up given incorrect info or sound insure of what iam on about.
They informed me today that I would have to have it tested as an hgv due to its construction change.
My navara has always been tested as a class 4 dual pupose, but if I fit a 5th wheel it needs plating and testing hence hgv mot
Can anyone shed any light on this confusing situation
Thanks
Joe
 
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Landy lover

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As usual with this type of thing it is what they think you are describing - you have told them effectively you have turned it into an artic tug which would of course need an HGV or certainly class 7 MOT - you are not you are putting a removable hitch for an American 5th wheel caravan into the butt. Total different situations.
 
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2657

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Thanks for the advice everyone
Iam even more confused as today I decided to ring VOSA and ask them, I know they are the powers that be but sometimes the call staff end up given incorrect info or sound insure of what iam on about.
They informed me today that I would have to have it tested as an hgv due to its construction change.
My navara has always been tested as a class 4 dual pupose, but if I fit a 5th wheel it needs plating and testing hence hgv mot
Can anyone shed any light on this confusing situation
Thanks
Joe

If you want to be confused and get misleading (or downright wrong) information then contact VOSA (which incidentally no longer exists).

Most (ex) VOSA operatives don't know there arse from their elbow.

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dave newell

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Only a guess and my gut feeling but I would work on a few basic points:

Is its GVW less than 3500KGS? Yes then class 4 I think.

Is its GVW 3500KGs or more? if yes then class 7 or perhaps HGV if over 3500KGs.

Does it look like a motorhome or a commercial vehicle? If it looks like a motorhome then its class 4 regardless of weight, if it looks like a commercial vehicle then it will be tested as such depending on its GVW.

Will be interested to read Geo's take on this, or any other MOT testers on this site.

D.
 
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Geo

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Only a guess and my gut feeling but I would work on a few basic points:

Is its GVW less than 3500KGS? Yes then class 4 I think.

Is its GVW 3500KGs or more? if yes then class 7 or perhaps HGV if over 3500KGs.

Does it look like a motorhome or a commercial vehicle? If it looks like a motorhome then its class 4 regardless of weight, if it looks like a commercial vehicle then it will be tested as such depending on its GVW.

Will be interested to read Geo's take on this, or any other MOT testers on this site.

D.
Your the closest Dave :winky:
My take on it from reading up on special notices dating back to 2010 and other reports that seem to contradict each other is as follows

Pick up trucks and the like appear to have lost there dual Purpose status
And that appears to clarify a few things

GVW upto 3000KG = Class4

GVW 3000KG To 3500KG =Class7

GVW over3500KG Light Goods Plated Test

This info was correct at time of publishing and is valid for 11 seconds only:Doh::RollEyes:
And subject to further clarification and change without Notice
Lord help us if VOSA cant answer what chance have I got:Blush:

Personally I would not give the 5th wheel a second glance, without tools I dont know if its fixed and working or he is delivering it:thumb:
Geo
 
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pappajohn

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Mine goes through on a normal test every year - I have heard some people who have had to remove the 5th wheel hitch for the MOT (its only 4 pins ) - Geo has commented on this in the past - maybe he will again but he stated normal MOT for the vehicle. The fifth wheel hitch I believe could be classified as a load - MOT rules I understand state the vehicle should be unladen. Very much down to the MOT Tester.

if that were the case a car with a detachable towbar (swan neck) would need the hitch removed as well as the nodding dog on the rear shelf.

the rules may state unladen for MOT....all our workvans go for test as used, loaded with tools, equipment, junk, ladders on roof, scrap cable...the works.

in the same vane.....a motorhome would need to be emptied of all personal goods and food/bedding/water etc.

i think unladen weight rule applies to full hgv (commercial) MOT as the unladen weight will need to be recorded.

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Geo

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Normal Mot's are tested as presented ie loaded or not
However test may be abandoned if load prevents, full inspection, exceeds safe jacking limits, or are a danger to testers or equipment
 
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impreza22

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The loophole regarding dual purpose is still in place but because the vehicle has been adapted with a 5 th wheel and will form part of articulated combination its no longer classed as duel purpose stated on vosa docs.
The main issue is from what the gent said was the construction has changed
By the way what pickups do you guys have that just get a normal test?
Thanks
Joe
 
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2657

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I have a Mazda Bt50, GVW 3030 so would be class7 according to Geo but have not had any problems so far, last MOT was in Aug 2013.

I have a toneaux cover over the hitch so it is not that obvious but if it ever became a problem I can remove it in 5 mins.

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Geo

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The loophole regarding dual purpose is still in place but because the vehicle has been adapted with a 5 th wheel and will form part of articulated combination its no longer classed as duel purpose stated on vosa docs.
The main issue is from what the gent said was the construction has changed
By the way what pickups do you guys have that just get a normal test?
Thanks
Joe

Source of or link to your info please
G
 
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buyer

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I attended my mot testers mandatory refresher course on Wednesday and thursday of this week and this topic was brought up,Nissan navara pickups with a goss weight of say3250kg are to be tested as class 4(dual purpose ) vehicles.which applies to pick ups,if they can carry at least 1 pasenger ,and goods,and are capable of engaging 4 wheel drive.BUT if you then fit a fifth wheel hitch in the back it then requires an HGV test:Doh:BUT if you remove the hitch it can then be tested at class 4,because as geo quite rightly says ,as a tester you test as presented,if the vehicle presenter then fits a fifth wheel technically they will be running without a valid test.I dare say there will be someone out there that will know more about my job than I do, but this came from the VOSA training yesterday.:thumb:
 
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2657

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Perhaps if it was pointed out to DVSA (formerly VOSA) that the fifth wheel coupling is of a temporary removable nature their opinion may change.

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2657

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I attended my mot testers mandatory refresher course on Wednesday and thursday of this week and this topic was brought up,Nissan navara pickups with a goss weight of say3250kg are to be tested as class 4(dual purpose ) vehicles.which applies to pick ups,if they can carry at least 1 pasenger ,and goods,and are capable of engaging 4 wheel drive.BUT if you then fit a fifth wheel hitch in the back it then requires an HGV test:Doh:BUT if you remove the hitch it can then be tested at class 4,because as geo quite rightly says ,as a tester you test as presented,if the vehicle presenter then fits a fifth wheel technically they will be running without a valid test.I dare say there will be someone out there that will know more about my job than I do, but this came from the VOSA training yesterday.:thumb:

Yet another thing for us 5'er owners to worry about ::bigsmile:::bigsmile:

Carry on regardless ???
 
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Geo

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I attended my mot testers mandatory refresher course on Wednesday and thursday of this week and this topic was brought up,Nissan navara pickups with a goss weight of say3250kg are to be tested as class 4(dual purpose ) vehicles.which applies to pick ups,if they can carry at least 1 pasenger ,and goods,and are capable of engaging 4 wheel drive.BUT if you then fit a fifth wheel hitch in the back it then requires an HGV test:Doh:BUT if you remove the hitch it can then be tested at class 4,because as geo quite rightly says ,as a tester you test as presented,if the vehicle presenter then fits a fifth wheel technically they will be running without a valid test.I dare say there will be someone out there that will know more about my job than I do, but this came from the VOSA training yesterday.:thumb:

I dont wish to contradict anything you have posted, But it don't sound right and it dont make sense to bring 4wheel drive into the equation,

Suffice it to say either you have mis interpreted what was said or the Vosa Trainer got it round his neck
I have read today an old special notice informing us of the loss of dual purpose and checked for a turnaround on that decision and couldnt find one
What centre did you attend id like to call them
Geo

Special Notice July 2013
Item 3: Dual Purpose Vehicles (SN 5 - 2009)
We recently sent out a system message, allowing certain 4 x 4 pickup vehicles with a DGW over 3000kg
up to and including 3500kg to be considered dual purpose vehicles for test purposes where no unladen
weight data is available.
Following further consultation with the Department for Transport, an amendment to the Motor Vehicles
(Tests) Regulations early next year will see the removal of the dual purpose vehicle definition.
You should advise your customers that once the necessary changes have been made to the regulations,
scheduled for early next year, all goods vehicles over 3000kg up to and including 3500kg DGW previously
accepted as dual purpose vehicles will then fall in to Class 7.

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buyer

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Hi geo .i know what you are saying ,whoever said the mot scheme makes sence,but to be classified as a dual purpose vehicle it must be 4x4 ,and this subject was talked about at some length ,about 30 minutes of lively debate,and I took notice of it because I personally test a few navaras as class 7's because I misread the special notice of 2009 ,I mistakenly thought they had removed the dual purpose bit ,but our trainer PAUL at Lincoln pointed out that it says it will be removed next year,BUT NEVER HAS BEEN.i have even tested them for other cl
Ass 4 stations who believe they can't test them. In the future I will be testing them all as class 4. As long as no fifth wheel hitches:thumb:
 
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Landy lover

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Normal Mot's are tested as presented ie loaded or not
However test may be abandoned if load prevents, full inspection, exceeds safe jacking limits, or are a danger to testers or equipment

I know my mate (MOT Tester ) had a warning for moving a buggy to check the rear seat belt anchorage and was told that he should have refused the test as the vehicle was laden. Just shows how petty and ridiculous people from VOSA can be.
 
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impreza22

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SCHEDULE 2
CLASSES OF VEHICLE TO WHICH THESE REGULATIONS DO NOT APPLY

1. Dual-purpose vehicles not constructed or adapted to form part of an articulated vehicle.


Above is the paragraph taken from the testing and plating regs (sorry) not vosa regs
Duel purpose vehicles no matter what weight are tested class 4 mot.
Some test stations may have trouble testing large dual purpose because of size or weight if the building or equipment does not permit it, it would need to go to class 7 or gvts testing station but a class 4 test would still be done.
So my point at 1st was to use a dual purpose pick up to avoid testing and plating but that don't seem possible now.
Buyer is correct about the dual purpose issue its still not changed, that I asked today but will change soon .
So the way I see it now is I have to inform the DVSA fitting the 5th wheel hitch due to the pick ups change of use and it will need plating and testing going by what the mot trainer said in a previous post
I don't want to break any laws and find myself in trouble by removing and refitting the hitch for mot purpose
There must be a good reason why the mot trainer explains why a hgv test is required or does that just depend on if the set up is used for commercial reasons?
Thanks
Joe

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2657

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Just another one to think about!

I do not know the regulations for testing class 4 & class 7 regarding laden or unladen but I do know that LGV's have to be laden for testing. Does this mean that a pickup with 5th wheel hitch must be tested with trailer attached, presumably the hitch would then form part of the test.
 
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Landy lover

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Surely if a vehicle is built as a dual purpose vehicle and used as a dual purpose vehicle no rule change can be retrospective because as such it would /could invalidate the use of the vehicle for its original purpose. Future production vehicles I can understand.

Also as I understand it within the rules there is a distinct difference between a fifth wheel trailer and an artic trailer specifically in a/ the gross pin weight - up to 20% for a fifth wheel and over 20% for an artic and b/ the location of the wheels on the trailer.

There is also different rules in place regarding vehicles under 3.5 tonnes and trailers under 3.5 tonnes compared with those over those figure and I believe when the combination exceeds 7.5 tonnes yet a further set of rules apply.

Yet more rules apply within those combinations if the use is for business or carrying goods for hire and reward.

It is a very grey area which many people have tried to get a definitive on and in truth no matter who you ask in VOSA (DVSA) you will get substantially different answers because generally they are interpreting the law AS THEY INDIVIDUALLY SEE IT.

In fact if VOSA stopped you and took you to court for a breach of a particular law regarding this it would be the first case of its kind - it would be costly for them to do so and that would then in truth be the definitive case in law by which all future prosecutions would be based. I suspect they would only do in the case of a death where that death could be specifically attributed to the combination of trailer and vehicle .

From my personal point of view I have had a Land Rover 110 crew cab fitted with a fifth wheel hitch now for 5 years - the only question that has ever been raised by the MOT tester was the fact that the electrics for the 5th wheel are on a 13 pin socket and he queried whether he should test those however as they are situated in the Butt rather then by the standard ball hitch which has the standard 12N and 12S sockets his opinion was that they should not come under the test. Many thousands of 5th wheel units are on the road in the UK. The only time I have heard of any being stopped were one for a weight check and one for not having a mechanical handbrake - that was given a prohibition and had to have a hand brake fitted retrospectively at the importers and then had to be taken to a VOSA test station to have the prohibition removed. If my memory serves right that test was a farce anyway as they had no better means of testing the handbrake than applying it and getting the vehicle to pull away and see if the brake appeared to hold :Eeek: There may be other cases but I am not aware of them
 
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Montana16

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Hi,
For my 10p input i am with Landy. My pickup is tested locally by a garage that can cope with the weight of my pickup on its lift. Other than that no problems just take the hitch out, pull 4 pins, easy.Never had a problem.
I did try and make some sense of Vosa a few years back but i gave up. You can speak to 10 different people and get 10 different answers. Use common sense and enjoy. My main moan is that if a pickup has a train weight put on it by the manufacturers, in either the USA or Japan then why is that figure no good for this country. In my case if a pickup is good for covering all the miles it is designed to do in the USA than what makes it not able to cover the lesser miles it would do in Europe. Just a case of the EU being a major pain ????
The main thing is be sensible and stay within the law as much as you understand it then get out there and enjoy, don't get caught up in red tape that is there to confuse.

Dave. :thumb::thumb:
 
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