New car batteries, used in the leisure market? (1 Viewer)

[ehuplad]

Just being looking at the below, It talks about the new car engine batteries,
and there use as leisure batteries.

What are your thoughts on this??


http://www.atlanticmotorhomeservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

[Snowbird]

Interesting reading. I did contemplate the Smart stop start, but was worried about the battery standing up to that type of use. I now understand that they have had to re think battery technology.

 

[TheBig1]

certainly some interesting points made there, but i would like to see the new batteries bench tested and compared to a FLA battery and the data published

bosch being first to market is no surprise and i expect cheaper versions will soon follow if they are that good:thumb: weight saving and warranted service life alone make them a real leap forward in technology

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[Reallyretired]

I use starter batteries as leisure batteries in my van. It seems to work well for my purposes. I have 400w of solar so the batteries are rarely discharged to any extent. I also use a 1.5kw inverter with a peak of 3kw which could draw 150amps from each of the two batteries for a short while.
As I don't need deep cycling and do require the occasional high current, I find the characteristics of starter batteries to be more suitable (and usually a bit cheaper too)

Edit These batteries in the OP article look worth looking at, as they are quite a bit lighter (more capacity for beer)

 

[pappajohn]

cheaper leisure batteries ARE simply starter batteries with a fancy name label.

cell construction is different on starter batteries and leisure batteries.

starter are designed for short time, high drain currents. 400 to 500 amps drain for a few seconds is typical and are constantly being charged

proper (or as near as you get) leisure batteries are designed for long, low drain currents.....10 to 15 amps for many hours and get charged from time to time.

cell construction decides what the correct use will be..

 

[ehuplad]

cheaper leisure batteries ARE simply starter batteries with a fancy name label.

cell construction is different on starter batteries and leisure batteries.

starter are designed for short time, high drain currents. 400 to 500 amps drain for a few seconds is typical and are constantly being charged

proper (or as near as you get) leisure batteries are designed for long, low drain currents.....10 to 15 amps for many hours and get charged from time to time.

cell construction decides what the correct use will be..

But these are designed for the stop start vehicles, were heated screen, fan etc is used when the engine is stopped, in a city this can be alot of the time. they have had to design a new technology battery for this to be achieved.

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[pappajohn]

But these are designed for the stop start vehicles, were heated screen, fan etc is used when the engine is stopped, in a city this can be alot of the time. they have had to design a new technology battery for this to be achieved.

new battery technology was developed for electric cars.......at an average cost of £5000 for a replacement bank every three or four years at massive pollution costs to the environment


that is not the way forward to me and i'll stick to known technology....Pb/acid

 

[Steve and Denise]

batteries

new battery technology was developed for electric cars.......at an average cost of £5000 for a replacement bank every three or four years at massive pollution costs to the environment


[HI]that is not the way forward to me and i'll stick to known technology....Pb/acid[/QUOTE[/HI]]

I can see what you mean, it's only about 2 year's ago that the farmer down the road from us got rid of his bank of accumulators and generator in favour of mains electric

 

[rainbow chasers]

Graphene versions are in development, and currently offering the best solution we have seen so far.

You have all seen graphene on the news for screens that are flexible, circuit boards etc. The batteries will use graphene cells. The benefits of these are they are lighter and last far longer, around 5-10 times longer in tests. Reharge time is 5 minutes.

If you put that into an electric car, and you are talking of distances increasing from 100 miles, or a very usuable 500 miles - with a 5 minute recharge. That will make the electric car a feasable alternative. Thats less time that it takes to refill with fuel, and with the right generation device - you may not need to recharge at all!

If you put one of those batteries in your motorhome today - the power that lasts around a week - would last a month/5 weeks. With a 5 minute recharge, the alternator could fully recharge on a journey - which would mean you never need to 'hook-up' again......food for thought!

As I say, it is all currently in development - but will come I would guess within the next ten years.

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[Daifuse]

I'm just thinking about the charging current required to fully charge the battery in 5 minutes, never mind the size of wiring or the alternator size ........

 

[Allanm]

These silver calcium batteries were apparently fitted to Ford cars from 1997. So, not wonderful new technology. This just looks like advertising blurb.
The batteries in my van are Calcium. No idea what that means.
Allan

 

[olley]

If you put that into an electric car, and you are talking of distances increasing from 100 miles, or a very usuable 500 miles - with a 5 minute recharge.

They may be able to be recharged in 5mins, but have you considered the amount of power required to do this? A gallon of petrol produces about 13kwh in your car, to drive 500 miles at say 40mpg you need 12.5 gallons, so that's 163.5 kwh. you need to provide 163.5kw for 1 hour to rechage the battery.Now you want to recharge that in 5mins, so you need to do that in a twelfth, so that's 1962kw for 5mins.

At 440v that,s 4459 amps! Need rather a heafty cable me thinks. At 22000 volts a much more reasonable 89 amps. Not sure I would be keen on connecting the lead through.

As usual with my maths, they are probably a bit dodgy but you get the picture, recharging simply isn't practical.

Ian

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[jonandshell]

OK, back from the fantasy of National Grid- meltdown 5 minute recharges, I have Ford-badged silver calcium batteries on my twin battery Transit chassis.

One or these batteries doubles as an auxillary battery, intended by Ford to run tipper bodies and the like.
On our van, this auxillary battery is paralled to our habitation batteries. As a result, it is regularly discharged to as low as 80%. It is still going strong at 5 years old, 3 years in use.

There might be some truth in the silver calcium deep discharge theory, but I withhold judgement until I have carried out a pre-ski trip discharge test to determine actual battery bank performance!

 

[jonandshell]

They may be able to be recharged in 5mins, but have you considered the amount of power required to do this? A gallon of petrol produces about 13kwh in your car, to drive 500 miles at say 40mpg you need 12.5 gallons, so that's 163.5 kwh. you need to provide 163.5kw for 1 hour to rechage the battery.Now you want to recharge that in 5mins, so you need to do that in a twelfth, so that's 1962kw for 5mins.

At 440v that,s 4459 amps! Need rather a heafty cable me thinks. At 22000 volts a much more reasonable 89 amps. Not sure I would be keen on connecting the lead through.

As usual with my maths, they are probably a bit dodgy but you get the picture, recharging simply isn't practical.

Ian

Ah! But petrol engines aren't better than 30% efficient!

 

[olley]

Ah! But petrol engines aren't better than 30% efficient!

From my post:

A gallon of petrol produces about 13kwh in your car,

A litre contains about 36 MG/L, thats roughly 10kw, multiply by 4.5 and you get 45kw per gallon, divide by 30% and you get 13.5kw. All from wiki. As I said its all pretty rough calc's, the best I can do I am afraid, but it makes the point. As you say National grid melt down.

Ian

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[hilldweller]

but will come I would guess within the next ten years.

Have you seen the age of the average FUNster !!

 

[rainbow chasers]

They may be able to be recharged in 5mins, but have you considered the amount of power required to do this? A gallon of petrol produces about 13kwh in your car, to drive 500 miles at say 40mpg you need 12.5 gallons, so that's 163.5 kwh. you need to provide 163.5kw for 1 hour to rechage the battery.Now you want to recharge that in 5mins, so you need to do that in a twelfth, so that's 1962kw for 5mins.

At 440v that,s 4459 amps! Need rather a heafty cable me thinks. At 22000 volts a much more reasonable 89 amps. Not sure I would be keen on connecting the lead through.

As usual with my maths, they are probably a bit dodgy but you get the picture, recharging simply isn't practical.

Ian

Your concerns are well voiced, and you are certainly not the first to question it.

They take around a third LESS power to charge. The graphene is what they call an Ultra Capacitor - It stores huge amounts of energy. It produces it's own energy as well through static, and for this requires heat or a friction source.

Although you may plug your charger into a 240v supply - that is only the pool of power you have available, you are only using a few volts. With this, you are using a few less volts - so meltdown won't be an issue as the material is more efficient, and effectively gives you more for far less.

Current batteries cannot complete, and the materials they are made from cannot take the larger amounts of stress caused by 'intense' charging - the heating and cooling- as this would crack the materials and the effectively blow apart and destroy themselves......But wrap them in Graphene - and they are fine as the graphene holds them together! It stores huge amounts of energy, and also adds it's own. So it is being deemed like finding the holy grail in energy terms.

Lets take you average Li-on Battery. The standard charger will push 3.5-4.5v through, and would have a life cycle of around 500+ charges and charge in 2-4hours. In comparison, a Graphene version would require 2-2.5v, have a charging cycle of 30,000+ charges and would charge in 2 - 5 minutes. The figures they are quoting for charging a smart phone are around 20 seconds. Although this is being deemed a revelation in phone charging by comparing with overnight charging - most modern phones will charge in under an hour these days.

They have already experimented in weaving graphene into a pair of jeans, and used the static caused by you walking, to charge a phone. So they are exprimenting with endless uses for this stuff.

As i say, it is all in development - but keep your eye onit, it is moving fast - especially when you consider it was only invented in 2004!

 

[olley]

I think you misunderstand, if it takes 163.5kwh to to travel 500 miles, its irrelevant how you provide that power, be it via a fossilise fuel or via a battery/capacitor, your power source must give 163.5kwh. The charging efficiency is not in question, even if your ultracapacitor could be charged at 100% efficiency it would still need to provide 163.5kwh to travel 500 miles.

Its how you provide the means to charge your capacitor in the timespan you have quoted (5mins) that's the problem. Petrol is relatively easy, and we have a distribution system evolved over 100 years to service it. While a distribution system could be done for supplying the amount of power needed to recharge the cars in your timeframe it would cost billions.

Ian

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