Ducato - 5th gear popping out (1 Viewer)

[Melchior]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here. I'm not new to internet forums but new to motorhoming and new to the Ducato. We've had it since August last year and done around 10,000km in it since then.

Last week on the way to Le Mans I went for 5th and was quickly told by the gearbox that no, I'm not allowed that but can have neutral instead. All other gears OK. Rest of the trip was fine, just had to drive > 1000km without 5th gear.

Having returned home and done some research I find that this is a very very common fault. I've found a few guides online to help and decide to do it myself. I'm no stranger to spanner twirling and it looks like a pretty simple procedure.

However! (There's always a "but") I need to know from where and which parts to buy. I'm based in Netherlands and although there are lots of motorhomes here, I can't find online shops etc. which might be able to help.

If any of you have advice/tips/tricks etc., please put it in this thread. Part numbers and current prices would be very handy. I've read that there are different 5th ratios available for heavier MH's, part numbers for those would be great too.

In the meantime I will keep it updated here with my progress and post pictures of the repair (despite all the very helpful guides, I find no photos of the procedure at all).

Greets from Netherlands!
M

 

[Snowbird]

I cant help regarding the newer models, but with the older Fiats the job was very straightforward. It can be done easily with the gearbox in situ. Remove offside wheel, which on a LHD will be the nearside. The 5th gear sits high in the box and Fiat in there infinite wisdom put a plate over it to facilitate easy removal. Remove plate and bingo, there is the 5th gear. Undo bolt and slide out and replace with new. Job done :thumb:.
Am not so sure about changing the gearing, as as far as I know the only difference in gearing was to allow 15" or 16" wheels.

 

[rainbow chasers]

Just remember that their will be swarf flying around in their somewhere, so flush it well - again and again if necessary.

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[Melchior]

I have had a reply from a seller on eBay who sells the 5th gear kits. He is asking me which gearbox I have - ME/MG/MGLU

Since I've no idea I asked him how I might check visually and he has said I need to check with the manufacturer. Not sure that is quite accurate so I wonder if any of you folks can let me know how I can check this? I guess there is a sticker on the gearbox but if that is missing, is there a way to tell?

 

[JockandRita]

Here you go Melchoir.
A discussion elsewhere on the very subject.

www. motor home facts.com/ftopic-69907-days0-orderasc-0.html ...........(copy and paste into your browser, then close the gaps before hitting the enter button. )

>>Help from Garry<<

Unfortunately, the superb photos he made available , no longer appear to be accessible from his links, which is a shame, as they showed each stage step by step.

Ask him nicely via email, and he may send copies to you.

HTH,

Jock.

 

[Melchior]

Hi Jock,

Great avatar, shame they aren't in a motorhome bed though

I've seen Gerry's how-to during my trawling of the web for this problem. Indeed it is a fantastic writeup but I also found the pictures to be missing which is why I wanted to do my own.

I'll drop him a line and see if we can get the photos back so new folks with this (ridiculously) common fault can get easy help in future.

Was there ever ANY recognition from Fiat about this? Clearly their design is total rubbish but everything I've read says they just weren't or aren't interested and deny all knowledge of it.

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[JockandRita]

Hi Jock,

Great avatar, shame they aren't in a motorhome bed though

I've seen Gerry's how-to during my trawling of the web for this problem. Indeed it is a fantastic writeup but I also found the pictures to be missing which is why I wanted to do my own.

I'll drop him a line and see if we can get the photos back so new folks with this (ridiculously) common fault can get easy help in future.

Was there ever ANY recognition from Fiat about this? Clearly their design is total rubbish but everything I've read says they just weren't or aren't interested and deny all knowledge of it.

Thanks Melchoir, re the Avatar.

I'm not sure if Fiat recognised the problem or not. My mechanic chappie knew about it years ago, from his many years working on the Royal Mail fleet, which he still does today.

Tam, on that other thread I linked you to, also carried out the 5th gear change, but didn't post any photos.
I'd be pleased if you were to post photos as you got through each stage, as would others, I'm sure.

Good luck with it, and don't forget to refill with the correct oil. From personal experience, (as you'll have read on the other thread), it certainly makes the difference.

Cheers for now,

Jock.

 

[DP+JAY]

Try axel-augustin.de, exelent help & advise plus discount mail order parts.

Broken Link Removed

 

[Geo]

Hi
Im sorry to say that the only and I do mean the only way your going to replace your fifth gear like for like is when its in your hand and you can count the teeth and phisicly compare it with the new one
We do have a system for identifying what should be in your box BUT

5th gear conversions happen in two directions

1,Is a change to improve the cruising characteristics of tte motor home and uses what we shall we call kit A

2. Is a reversal of the above to improve the towing ability of the motor home and give less gear changes on hills,that uses what we shall call kit B

Both kits A & B can be found as standard in some boxes, and to confuse things even more
Hymer had Fiat change the standard gearing at Manf to what they specified.

Now what should your box have, what has your box got now what will Fiat give you if you go by part numbers, you see where this is heading.
To add even more problems to the equation Fiat Parts department have absolutely no idea about gear ratio's or any knowledge of what part is what and how many teeth etc why would they everything they sell is via what should be in the box, without a part no they couldnt even find a 5th gear in the wharehouse
You are going to have to ge it in your hand and then go looking and at about £350 for the bits you dont want to be buying two or three sets now do you
G

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[Melchior]

Try axel-augustin.de, exelent help & advise plus discount mail order parts.

Broken Link Removed

That's great, many thanks

Hi
Im sorry to say that the only and I do mean the only way your going to replace your fifth gear like for like is when its in your hand and you can count the teeth and phisicly compare it with the new one
We do have a system for identifying what should be in your box BUT

5th gear conversions happen in two directions

1,Is a change to improve the cruising characteristics of tte motor home and uses what we shall we call kit A

2. Is a reversal of the above to improve the towing ability of the motor home and give less gear changes on hills,that uses what we shall call kit B

Both kits A & B can be found as standard in some boxes, and to confuse things even more
Hymer had Fiat change the standard gearing at Manf to what they specified.

Now what should your box have, what has your box got now what will Fiat give you if you go by part numbers, you see where this is heading.
To add even more problems to the equation Fiat Parts department have absolutely no idea about gear ratio's or any knowledge of what part is what and how many teeth etc why would they everything they sell is via what should be in the box, without a part no they couldnt even find a 5th gear in the wharehouse
You are going to have to ge it in your hand and then go looking and at about £350 for the bits you dont want to be buying two or three sets now do you
G

Hi Geo - Agreed totally about waiting until the bits are in my hand. I understand what you're saying about the Fiat parts desk too. Having owned a slightly unusual Rover in the past and being told my car does not exist, I've already experienced this phenomenon!!

I always felt there is a huge ratio gap between 4th and 5th so am very sure it has the long 'cruise' 5th gear rather than the shorter 'tow' option. I'd like to keep it that way as it does allow higher speed cruising and the van is MGW 3400kg.

Mrs M is desperate to go away in it this weekend so it seems my plan to get stuck into the gearbox is going to go on hold for a little longer.

 

[freelanderuk]

There is a write up about the 5th gear change in august 2012 MMM magazine if you pm your email I will scan and send you a copy of the article

 

[JockandRita]

There is a write up about the 5th gear change in august 2012 MMM magazine if you pm your email I will scan and send you a copy of the article

Yes please Chris. :thumb:

Cheers,

Jock.

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[freelanderuk]

Yes please Chris. :thumb:

Cheers,

Jock.

On its way to you

 

[Onderweg]

Hi Melchior

Found following message on a dutch camperforum:

Neem eens contact op met Kareltje Cola
Het zal al bij al nog wel meevallen
De 5e hangt er maar aan en is van buiten af bereikbaar

http://www.debridge.be/

Succes

Here is the complete thread

On this forum you will find a lot more about the "5th gear problem"

Hoop dat alles goed komt :thumb:

Paul and Ineke

 

[Melchior]

Thanks Onderweg

Can the people at http://www.debridge.be/ supply the replacement gear? I cannot read Dutch well enough to understand the thread you posted.

My next step is to remove the cover on the end of the gearbox and remove the broken bits - only then can I know which gear is fitted (although I am sure it is the 'long' one) and start ordering the replacement.

Can someone tell me which type of oil should go in the gearbox? To my surprise I didn't find that mentioned in any thread on this subject (but do know to overfill to 1.6 litres instead of the standard 1.2).

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[JockandRita]

Can someone tell me which type of oil should go in the gearbox? To my surprise I didn't find that mentioned in any thread on this subject (but do know to overfill to 1.6 litres instead of the standard 1.2).

Hi Melchoir.

I can't help with the spec or grading, but after having had an engine change, (insurance job) I commented to my usual servicing chappie about the notchy gear change since. He drained the gearbox to find mineral gear oil, and refilled with fully synthetic gear oil, which apparently is the correct oil to use. I have to say, it certainly made a difference.

Also, to help avoid the 5th gear failure, he overfilled the box too, as that gear apparently, is only lubricated by oil splash, from the other gears.
I also attached a really strong magnet to the outer lower half of the cover, to try and trap any future debris.

HTH,

Jock.

 

[Mel]

Thanks Onderweg

Can the people at http://www.debridge.be/ supply the replacement gear? I cannot read Dutch well enough to understand the thread you posted.

My next step is to remove the cover on the end of the gearbox and remove the broken bits - only then can I know which gear is fitted (although I am sure it is the 'long' one) and start ordering the replacement.

Can someone tell me which type of oil should go in the gearbox? To my surprise I didn't find that mentioned in any thread on this subject (but do know to overfill to 1.6 litres instead of the standard 1.2).

I think they can replace the 5th gear

It says the same as what others have put that you need to take the old one out first and you should be able to reach it from outside they mean via the inspection plate.
Give them a ring they will speak english i think.

Mel

 

[SUGGY]

5th Gear faults .

No one has mentioned the age of the Ducato's or engine size in previous posts ,

Is there any particular year of manufacture of the Ducato that are effected by this 5th gear problem ? .

I do remember reading of the early pre 2000 ( i think ) Ducato's that had reverse gear faults .

Graham

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[JockandRita]

Hi Graham,

I believe it applied to the earlier Ducato 230 and 244 models, (ie, yours and ours). :Sad:

The earlier productions of the newer X250 did suffer from juddering problems whilst reversing, (juddergate), as well as from water ingress to the engine compartment via the front screen scuttle, (watergate).
Initially, Fiat vociferously denied any problems, whilst Peugeot/Citroen (PSA Group) put their hands up and accepted that there were problems, which they provided a remedy for. It's exactly the same vehicle, off the same production line. oh:

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Onderweg]

Hi Mel,
We just returned from our holidays so I am a bit late with giving a reply.

First i assumed you living in the Netherlands would speak/understand Dutch :Blush:
But it is like the Americans say: assume is "i make an ass of you and me"

The firm mentioned is located in Belgium so i assume (again oh they can speak English :Cool: Personally i have not had any contact with this firm but it is highly appreciated on the Dutch forum i mentioned

Paul

 

[Drew]

Happened to me

Just had the same thing happen to me, seems quite straightforward to get to the 5th gear. I talked to a guy at the imaginatively named "Mr Gearbox" in Sheffield and he said the there should be a number on the gear that from which he can order the right part. Also you should be able to see the number by just removing the steel cover on the end of the box. He quoted £120 for labour plus parts between £250 and £350 depending on the parts required.
Having looked I think it is easy enough to remover the cover but what bout the rest?
Any advice?

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[Melchior]

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I can report that there has been absolutely zero progress on this by me since I started the thread apart from doing something silly like 2000km. We *had* to go to Frankfurt a couple of weekends ago and had nowhere to stay so motorhome it was. That was a very tiring weekend made a lot worse by the engine buzzing away in 4th, reduced speed and hot hot weather.

We will go to the Düsseldorf Caravan Salon at the end of this month and I really want it fixed by then and I really want to do it myself. We'll use the motorhome this weekend and will be away without it the one after so time is getting tight. Just need to pull my finger out at the start of next week and get the broken one out and get on to ordering the replacement.

I'll keep you all posted...
M

 

[JockandRita]

Go on Melchoir, get stuck in.

I hope it goes well for you...........when you do eventually get round to it.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Drew]

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I can report that there has been absolutely zero progress on this by me since I started the thread apart from doing something silly like 2000km. We *had* to go to Frankfurt a couple of weekends ago and had nowhere to stay so motorhome it was. That was a very tiring weekend made a lot worse by the engine buzzing away in 4th, reduced speed and hot hot weather.

We will go to the Düsseldorf Caravan Salon at the end of this month and I really want it fixed by then and I really want to do it myself. We'll use the motorhome this weekend and will be away without it the one after so time is getting tight. Just need to pull my finger out at the start of next week and get the broken one out and get on to ordering the replacement.

I'll keep you all posted...
M

I have just ordered new parts for my Ducato gearbox at a staggering £668, still at least filling the bits will only cost £120.

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[Drew]

Update

So far I have discovered that this is a problem with pre 2002 Fiat Ducatos. It does not seem to affect vans, just motorhomes and the theory is that it is to do with lubrication.
Fiat added a 5th gear to a 4 speed box by extending the shafts and putting the new gear outside the existing casing. To oil this it appears they put a 3/4 section of pipe through the casing that collects oil and dribbles it onto the gear. It relies on oil being thrown about in the gearbox landing on the pipe and dripping through. Motorhomes spend a substantial amount of time standing about, whereas vans are run almost every day. As it would take a long time for the oil to get through to the gears they would be running dry for some time and eventually wear.
Access is quite easy and counting the teeth is a doddle. Replacement through Fiat main dealership is straight forward (my experience)
This series of photos shows the cover to be removed and what is beneath it. I took off the wheel but you could do it from underneath quite easily. The last photo shows the damage to the teeth, so you will need to replace both gears (£273.79) and the syncro (£241.31) I am also replacing the fork at £41.64....and don't forget the VAT. If I was a little bit more confident I would do the job myself but Mr Gearbox says it is a 2 hour job and quoted £120 so I'll take it there, don't want to damage some really expensive parts.

 

[Toad]

Fiat Electronic Parts Catalog

Newbie here,

Just something that might help with Ducato Parts

http://eper.fiatforum.com/

Online parts catalogue, just enter your VIN and your exact vehicle should come up.

 

[Drew]

Have the parts

I have picked up the replacement parts, all £668 worth of them and went to see a local gearbox mender. He suggested that I didn't really need the selector fork and he also said that the Syncro hub is reversible, so if it hasn't already been reversed I didn't need that either.
Anyway I have them now and can't take them back so will wait and see.
Fitting is going to cost £100 and should only take a couple of hours and includes fresh oil in the gearbox. I guess I could have a go at it myself but if I get it wrong that's a lot of money wasted.

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[Melchior]

Gosh Drew, it sounds like you have paid a lot for those parts. I don't have any direct experience of the cost but have read online about the total being rather less than that.

Anyway, this evening I finally got around to getting underneath it and proceeding forth

The culprit:


88385 on the clock, just about 55,000 miles:



Drove it up onto the ramps.

Ours has an undertray so you need a nice 17mm socket to get that off...


...and a long 10mm for the two smaller nuts on each side up inside the wheelarch.


Undertray removed:


5th gear hiding underneath the black metal cover. Ours has ABS which explains the six pipes:


13mm socket on those bolts to loosen them off. All were easy apart from the top one which you cannot see at all. I have a lovely set of ratchet spanners which really helped (they have saved me more times than I can count over several years) and I was able to remove it quite easily. Get a bucket under there and let the oil drain out:


Not a huge amount of oil came out and then the fun began. All the guides I've read say to just pull the cover off but they do not take ABS into account. The pipes are right in the way of removing the cover and I started getting images of having to drop an engine mount to lower the gearbox enough to clear the pipes. Thankfully though, I was able to get it out by removing the rubber seal, bending the pipes a tiny bit and wangle the cover around.

That left me with this:





Now I cannot go any further as I need a socket to fit that huge nut. I have a 32mm one but that's too small so I reckon it's a 36mm?

From that photo I count 35 teeth.

Bit more research required to know exactly which bits I need to undo and order. Also need to know what type of gearbox oil I need to fill it back up, if anyone knows

Cheers for now, M

 

[JockandRita]

Also need to know what type of gearbox oil I need to fill it back up, if anyone knows

I don't know the spec code Melchoir, but mine was refilled with fully synthetic gear oil, and slightly over as well, to cater for the splash lubrication to the fifth gear. :thumb:
104K Kms now, and no fifth gear problems as yet.
The smoothness of the gear change between mineral gear oil, and fully synthetic gear oil, is very much noticed, ie, it's flawless.

Good luck,

Jock.

 

[Melchior]

Just spoke to these guys http://www.debridge.be/ and they have the stuff in stock. As mine has 35 teeth on the small gear, this means it is the high ratio version. Low ratio has 38 teeth.

He is asking me which bits I want, I can have the synchro and/or the gearset. Now I get to thinking, from what I have read it is the synchro which wears out BUT this is also reversible (is that correct?!) so actually --- do I need *any* new parts? Can I just reverse the synchro...?

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