VOSA Stopping Fivers (1 Viewer)

[Jim]

We had a funster who was towing a fifth wheel stopped by Vosa on Friday just outside Shepton. Wrote him up for the handbrake. VOSA said that an electronic handbrake was illegal, they gave him 72 hours to get it sorted, he's on his way to Calders now to get a regular handbrake fitted.

Most fivers i know rely on chocks, if you don't have a handbrake fitted then you should consider it before VOSA pull you in. :thumb:

 

[Pikey Pete]

When I had my Fiver, I understood then, that all Fivers had to have a mechanical handbrake, by law.
Mine did and I was told that all UK imports had one fitted before resale.
So I'm surprised that there was one out there without the mechanical handbrake.

Pete:Cool:

 

[vwalan]

vosa have been aware of it for awhile .if you look back i brought it up awhile ago . chocks are just that chocks .
there will soon be alot more of these type vehicle checks . the last one i got a word about was living vans . defined as having a large area to carry m,bikes ,cars etc .are not campers or caravans . like mine they are living vans . / many m,homes have this sort of garage area . they are being registered in correct as motor caravans and also have the wrong mots .
i think soon you will hear of vosa stopping them as well.
toy haulers as some are called are a definate pull if the 5er is over 3,500kg gvw . its on the cards . be warned .

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[Landy lover]

This has always been an issue Jim - it has very much been down to the interpretation of the Construction and Use regulations by each supplier so therefore a very grey area - when we bought ours we looked closely at C&U and it was one of the many reasons that we plumbed for Niche Marketing as their interpretation was the same as ours that a fixed lever operated handbrake was the correct interpretation of the C&U regs. Electronic is only as good as the batteries and furthermore if you continually energise the electromagnets in the braking system you do risk failure at a critical time. The wheel wedge used by some while it is a very efficient system of stopping a twin axled trailed vehicle moving the application time I would suggest would be considered unacceptable in an emergency a) because of the application and b) because it is not a fixed part of the vehicle - ie it could easily be left out of the vehicle or lost and therefore the vehicle would be without a 'mechanical' means of braking.

While it is annoying for the member concerned I think this 'stop' by VOSA has at last removed the 'grey' area albeit it can only be taken as the opinion of just 1 VOSA inspector

 

[Landy lover]

When I had my Fiver, I understood then, that all Fivers had to have a mechanical handbrake, by law.
Mine did and I was told that all UK imports had one fitted before resale.
So I'm surprised that there was one out there without the mechanical handbrake.

Pete:Cool:

There are a surprising amount out there without a mechanical handbrake relying on wedges and clamps to satify the C&U requirements

 

[Peter JohnsCross MH]

I believe there is an A frame manufacturer relying on electronic braking !

Peter

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[simsy56]

Is'nt a ratchet type 'scissor' brake between the wheels, mechanical?

Craig

 

[chatter]

Is'nt a ratchet type 'scissor' brake between the wheels, mechanical?

Craig

no, like all largish trailers, caravans 5vers need a proper handbrake fitted permanently

 

[motorhomelover]

i have a tow car fitted with a brakebuddy that is electronic / hydraulic
is this not legal now?

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[aba]

i have a tow car fitted with a brakebuddy that is electronic / hydraulic
is this not legal now?

i presume it still has a mechanical hand brake so i guess your ok.

but what about the new cars that are fitted with electronic parking brakes are they now illegal ?????

 

[vwalan]

that braking system well covers the braking regs . one of the few systems that does on a frames . again vosa do understand which systems are ok and which arent . there is going to be alot more vosa checks .

 

[Sundowners]

. Wrote him up for the handbrake. VOSA said that an electronic handbrake was illegal,. :thumb:

I would think that he was relying on pulling the pin on the driving brakes safety device----this operates the brakes if the trailer parts company with the tow vehicle--------it is not designed to remain on (like a parking brake)

Have to confess that our first 5er did not have a park brake:Blush:---we were quite relieved when we no longer owned it, but made sure the next one was legal:thumb:
Nigel & Pamala

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[algill]

The first thing we did when we got our 5er was to fit a parking brake.

That's over 5 years ago and we haven't used it yet.

I can see that there would be a use for it though if we had a breakdown on the road and had to separate the tow vehicle from the 5er.

Al

 

[Landy lover]

Is'nt a ratchet type 'scissor' brake between the wheels, mechanical?

Craig

Correct it is mechanical BUT it is not a permanent fixture - there for it can be left behind /forgotten in which case the vehicle has no handbrake - I think the answer in truth is in the name - HAND brake

parking brake, also called hand brake, emergency brake, is a latching brake usually used to keep the vehicle stationary. As I understand C&U it must be a fixture to the vehicle/trailer .

 

[slobadoberbob]

only needs one

While it is annoying for the member concerned I think this 'stop' by VOSA has at last removed the 'grey' area albeit it can only be taken as the opinion of just 1 VOSA inspector

Only needs one. One day we will see the same report for A frames.. just a matter of time.

Bob

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[Landy lover]

i presume it still has a mechanical hand brake so i guess your ok.

but what about the new cars that are fitted with electronic parking brakes are they now illegal ?????

Electronic handbrakes on modern vehicles are applied by and or released by electricity - once applied the power source is turned off ( as in ignition) and there is no further reliance on power to maintain braking - using the electronic braking system on a 5'er to hold as a handbrake would rely on keeping a permanent 12 volt power system to the Electromagnets - therefore these are not designed for continuous application and would undoubtedly fail in time PLUS once the tow vehicle is removed you would be reliant on the 5'ers on board batteries and once they discharged the brakes would fail.

 

[2657]

Correct it is mechanical BUT it is not a permanent fixture - there for it can be left behind /forgotten in which case the vehicle has no handbrake - I think the answer in truth is in the name - HAND brake

parking brake, also called hand brake, emergency brake, is a latching brake usually used to keep the vehicle stationary. As I understand C&U it must be a fixture to the vehicle/trailer .

Mine is a mechanically operated expanding wedge between the tyres and is locked in place mechanically and is fixed to the vehicle by a steel cable. As far as I am concerned this satisfies the requirements laid down in the following document issued by the DfT.

Another issue that never seems to be mentioned is the gross weight of the trailer, as can be seen from the document things change at 3500kg max vehicle weight, was the trailer inspected in the recent incident above this weight?

Use of the emergency breakaway attachment for parking is not a grey area and is definitely not allowed.

Having made my views and interpretation known please be aware of the disclaimer at the bottom of the document.

It would be interesting to hear Alex at Calder Leisure's views on this, are they still selling 5er's without a ratchet operated parking brake operating internally on the brake drums.

Link Removed

 

[eddie]

i have a tow car fitted with a brakebuddy that is electronic / hydraulic
is this not legal now?

Well!

I tow a 4x4 Terios behind our Gulf Stream and the handbook states that it can be towed behind a motorhome on a "A" frame. So I bought that one so there would be no warranty problems.

However, I personally believe that "A" frames are illegal, as I cannot see any reason why they should be legal.

It is a car! end of argument. Regardless of whether your driving it along the road, or pulling it along the road

If you dispute this, hook up your tow car onto your motorhome, remove the car tax disc from the car, and park then the whole lot up on the road. Then debate with a Policeman that the "car" is a trailer and doesn't need road tax! Or park it with no tax and then suggest to the Policeman that if you quickly clip the "A" frame on that it turns into a trailer

As for type approval et al? All it needs is for someone to be driving a car that has been "adapted" for towing (remember no crash testing is done after the car is modified) to knock a pedestrian down and there is the slightest evidence that additional injuries were caused due to the modifications, and that will be the end of it!

How many of us have told our insurance Companies that we have had engineering modifications made to our vehicles to enable them to be towed for leisure (not breakdown) behind a motorhome?

Very few I would guess as there are no Engineers in the mags or on the forums offering to carry out mechanical reports to satisfy insurance Companies, which you can guarantee, would be the response to telling an insurer that you have fitted a "A" frame! making engineering modifications to a car. In fact perhaps those that dispute that "A" frames are legal they could publish the response from their insurers when told that the car had had engineering modifications?

My Terios has a steel bar welded across the front of the car at about knee height now, this is the bar that the two arms of the "A" frame hook onto. That wasn't there when Diahatsu did the crash testing and N-Cap did there reports :Blush:

So don't worry about your electronic brakes Just make sure you don't hit anyone and get on a manslaughter charge

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[GJH]

(snip)
While it is annoying for the member concerned I think this 'stop' by VOSA has at last removed the 'grey' area albeit[HI] it can only be taken as the opinion of just 1 VOSA inspector[/HI]

Is that definitely the case or are VOSA issuing inspectors with (possibly new) guidance that tells them what is legal or not in these circumstances?

 

[GJH]

(snip)
Having made my views and interpretation known please be aware of the disclaimer at the bottom of the document.(snip)

Such disclaimers are more or less standard now and reflect what has always been the case - that the courts decide. They are basically equivalent to those issued by lawyers which say that an opinion expressed is just that and not professional advice. Disclaimers have become needed more in recent years because of the compensation culture which has come to infest the world.

 

[Landy lover]

Mine is a mechanically operated expanding wedge between the tyres and is locked in place mechanically and is fixed to the vehicle by a steel cable. As far as I am concerned this satisfies the requirements laid down in the following document issued by the DfT.

The question is therefore is it a permanent fixture to the vehicle ? you say it is fixed by a steel cable to the vehicle - how do you stow it when the trailer is on the road.

Hence the reason why I said it was the opinion of 1 VOSA inspector another may accept it - the same thing could easily happen with any part of a vehicle in an inspection 1 may say a part is unsafe and issue a prohibition another may just put an advisory on it.

My personal opinion is that the wedges do not comply with C&U but that is just my opinion

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[2657]

The question is therefore is it a permanent fixture to the vehicle ? you say it is fixed by a steel cable to the vehicle - how do you stow it when the trailer is on the road.

Hence the reason why I said it was the opinion of 1 VOSA inspector another may accept it - the same thing could easily happen with any part of a vehicle in an inspection 1 may say a part is unsafe and issue a prohibition another may just put an advisory on it.

My personal opinion is that the wedges do not comply with C&U but that is just my opinion

The parking brake is attached to the vehicle by a steel cable which is securely attached to the trailers chassis much the same as the way the ratchet assembly is fixed to the chassis and then connected to the working parts of the handbrake mechanism by a steel operating cable. When not in use it is stored securely in a locker, still attached to chassis.My brake operates externally, the ratchet system operates internally.

I realise that this is open to interpretation, some would say not but until some definitive legislation is provided my opinion is that my method does comply with the advice given in the DfT document on American trailers.

I agree that VOSA operators quite often give inconsistent advice, in my working life I have come across this more than once. The problem is that these people, often inadequately qualified in my opinion, have the power to serve prohibition notices without appeal.

 

[Landy lover]

I agree that VOSA operators quite often give inconsistent advice, in my working life I have come across this more than once. The problem is that these people, often inadequately qualified in my opinion, have the power to serve prohibition notices without appeal.

I so totally agree with you - far too much power and lacking in both brains and common sense the ones I have had the misfortune to meet

 

[Organplayer]

organplayer

Going off on a tangent, do VOSA operatives actually have the lawful power to cause a motor vehicle to stop in order to carry out their checks?. I was under the impression that only a police officer in uniform could do this, along with PCSO"s and traffic wardens employed by the police. I know things have changed enourmously since my days in the "job". Perhaps MrPlodd could enlighten us. In the meantime I shall try to find the answer to this rather minor issue in due course. Happy travels to us all.

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[vwalan]

Link Removed
have a read here,

 

[Landy lover]

Going off on a tangent, do VOSA operatives actually have the lawful power to cause a motor vehicle to stop in order to carry out their checks?. I was under the impression that only a police officer in uniform could do this, along with PCSO"s and traffic wardens employed by the police. I know things have changed enourmously since my days in the "job". Perhaps MrPlodd could enlighten us. In the meantime I shall try to find the answer to this rather minor issue in due course. Happy travels to us all.

Lifted from the VOSA site
29-07-04 Minister launches VOSA's Power to Stop




New powers to allow VOSA officers to stop lorries for checks on vehicle and driver compliance without the need for police support were officially launched by Roads Minister David Jamieson today. This will increase VOSA’s effectiveness and flexibility in targeting unroadworthy vehicles and the minority of drivers who break our road traffic laws. It will also free up valuable traffic police resources, allowing the police to concentrate on tackling crime and reducing road casualties.
Until the new powers were agreed, police officers had always to be present during spot-checks as only they had the authority to stop the vehicles. This was not always an efficient use of police time and meant VOSA staff were reliant on the availability of uniformed officers to carry out checks.

So it was the same barmy outfit that gave us traffic officers ( plastic policemen ) PCSO ( plastic policemen ) etc and reduced the effective policing we had on our road system claiming it saved money where as in fact it cost more just comes out of a different purse

 

[johnp10]

Going off on a tangent, do VOSA operatives actually have the lawful power to cause a motor vehicle to stop in order to carry out their checks?. I was under the impression that only a police officer in uniform could do this, along with PCSO"s and traffic wardens employed by the police. I know things have changed enourmously since my days in the "job". Perhaps MrPlodd could enlighten us. In the meantime I shall try to find the answer to this rather minor issue in due course. Happy travels to us all.

Yes, VOSA vehile examiners now have the power to require the driver of a moving vehivle to stop and allow examination without Police presence.

VOSA "stop" powers save a lot of public money, as no Police involvement is required.

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[Kasey]

Dont know that I will stop for anyone other than a policeman. We all know what is happening in europe with crooks impersonating police. Who's to say it wont happen here.

Oh, silly me, it did back in the 70's - it was called hijacking.

Back then, weights and measure inspectors were allowed to stop vehicles with the appropriate sign. Then people stopped stopping cos of fears of hijacking, so we ended up with the police being the only ones legally able to stop vehicles.

Lets all go round in circles again shall we.

 

[Organplayer]

organplayer

Thanx to everyone for the information. How things have changed. I remember when in Police uniform and working with the Min.of Transport as it was then, and stopping vehicles for MOT checks, dear old Ivor,the examiner always used to say before we started, "I don"t want any vans,ice cream vans or campervans of any sort. Ah, memories. Those were the days. Back to dreaming of happy free days with what seemed so little to worry about,before cameras here, there and everywhere and the huge power of the State. Best wishes to everyone.

 

[vwalan]

vans and camper vans are prime targets now . most 3,500kg gvw m,homes are over loaded so easy its easy meat these days plus weigh mats make it nice and convieniant .no going off to weigh do it in the layby. gordanos service station is another great pulling .catching place.

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