'Are you a Gypsy?' Ikea tells caravan owner that Travellers are barred from its car p (1 Viewer)

[scotjimland]

Furniture giant Ikea has been caught up in a racism row after insisting it was lawful to employ security guards to stop Gypsies entering its car parks.

The issue was first raised by Luke Massey, who was angered after he, his girlfriend and her mother were challenged as they tried to enter the car park of the Ikea store in Croydon, Surrey. The trio arrived in a camper van. Mr Massey said: "We were flagged down by a car park attendant. When my partner's mum, who was driving, wound down the window, he just said 'Are you Gypsies?'

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[Mavis]

We were at a Kent Rally at a school at East Grinstead and as we arrived so did the Police about 25 mins later.
Residents had reported us as a band of gypsies.oh:

 

[ShiftZZ]

Well done IKEA..

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[GJH]

Surely Mr Joseph Jones would be acting more positively if he took steps to ensure that his members undertook not to set up illegal caravan sites in the first place. Ikea seems to have acted perfectly properly to prevent a trespass rather than authorised use of their land.

 

[Jaws]

Graham, a point of order

Trespass is now the act of entering a place or domain with intent to damage or cause injury

And in the UK it is an absolute bugger to prove until AFTER the damage or injury has been caused..

Sooo.. Not so much a point of order but more a question.

Is the term 'to prevent a trespass' arcane or perhaps been superseded by something new, as in the form used it would appear it presumes guilt before the event ?

 

[slobadoberbob]

It is private land

It is private land, only a licence to enter the car park is given. The company has a right to with draw that licence at anytime .. Also it is ok to check on anyone so entering... I think IKEA have done nothing wrong.

Bob

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[ShiftZZ]

Graham, a point of order

Trespass is now the act of entering a place or domain with intent to damage or cause injury

And in the UK it is an absolute bugger to prove until AFTER the damage or injury has been caused..

Sooo.. Not so much a point of order but more a question.

Is the term 'to prevent a trespass' arcane or perhaps been superseded by something new, as in the form used it would appear it presumes guilt before the event ?

Jaws, are you one of them?

Slobobobobobobo & Treacle types?

 

[joner8888]

I run a buisness in a area that is completly surround by gypsies---Gates--locks--bars--cameras-- I am thinking as i sit here looking through my barred up windows, i feel like Custers last stand :thumb:

 

[wivvy's dad]

I run a buisness in a area that is completly surround by gypsies---Gates--locks--bars--cameras-- I am thinking as i sit here looking through my barred up windows, i feel like Custers last stand :thumb:

Ditto = Salford

I feel like custard.

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[GJH]

Graham, a point of order

Trespass is now the act of entering a place or domain with intent to damage or cause injury

And in the UK it is an absolute bugger to prove until AFTER the damage or injury has been caused..

Sooo.. Not so much a point of order but more a question.

Is the term 'to prevent a trespass' arcane or perhaps been superseded by something new, as in the form used it would appear it presumes guilt before the event ?

The (civil) tort of trespass can be of three types - to the person, to goods and to land. There is also criminal trespass.

I was using trespass in the sense of trespass to land - defined as "any unjustifiable intrusion by a person upon the land in possession of another" and actionable in the courts whether or not the claimant has suffered any damage. This definition is included in parliamentary briefing paper SB05116 (www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN05116.pdf) which was published in February this year.

Could it be that the definition you quote is to goods/person, rather than land, or the criminal act?

 

[Chris]

Ikea sell so much shit they might well attract gypsies

 

[ShiftZZ]

Ikea sell so much shit they might well attract gypsies

There you go Sundance, not good enough for Treacle Mansions....

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[Bushtrekker]

I'm going to IKEA this week.

The one that says it's Ikea Birmingham, although it's about ten miles away in Wednesbury. I must get out those tarot cards and borrow my wife's earrings

 

[Jaws]

No idea Graham ! Not being a legal eagle ( or indeed beagle ) I am just quoting from memory..

However.. a couple of interesting points raised by both yourself and Bob..

any unjustifiable intrusion by a person upon the land in possession of another

Now that statement is rather obtuse as the owner of said land must prove the intrusion as unjust or unjustifiable..


And Bob, whilst I agree with you absolutely........

The company has a right to with draw that licence at anytime

In todays litigious environment would a case not be argued that removing a licence based on the heritage of the person being stopped is tantamount to racism ?
I would suggest the licencee must show good cause to remove said licence vis vis the individual rather than the race ( yes I appreciate this is, in real life a load of tosh, but we are talking legal'ees here )

Although not a gypsy in any way shape of form, I am directly related by marriage to a huge Gypsy family ( none of whom have been 'on the road' for at least 3 generations ) and do know for an absolute certainty the Romany community have played the race card on a few occasions .. and to good effect I might add

 

[JohnH]

I would have thought that we all have the right to allow or disallow who enters our property. The racism bit surely could only have come into play if you said you cannot come on my land purely on the basis of ethnicity. If you said this car park is for customers (as in buying goods from me) then what is the problem. Not many travelling folk buy Ikea furniture for their vans. Of course there are exceptions before I get shot down in flames. I regularly go to B&Q in my van because it holds more than a Toyota Yaris. Just think of all of the "lovely" flat packs I could get in a van conversion.

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[joner8888]

I would have thought that we all have the right to allow or disallow who enters our property. The racism bit surely could only have come into play if you said you cannot come on my land purely on the basis of ethnicity. If you said this car park is for customers (as in buying goods from me) then what is the problem. Not many travelling folk buy Ikea furniture for their vans. Of course there are exceptions before I get shot down in flames. I regularly go to B&Q in my van because it holds more than a Toyota Yaris. Just think of all of the "lovely" flat packs I could get in a van conversion.

If you had the hassle i had with them, sorry --- sod the racial and ethnicity bit ---if you drive new transit --speak irish--ask" how much money be havin in yur poket"--dont pay for items--- break locks off ---- dont come in here:thumb:

 

[Jaws]

The problem is, until after the event who is to say the person or persons being refused entry is not a bona fide customer ?

I am only being devils advocate here you understand.. We suffer at the hands of travellers ourselves here in Thetford.. in fact we have just had yet another lot plot up within a few hundred yards of my house.. So it is back to locking everything up and ensuring all 6 security cameras are working properly every damned night again !! :Angry:

 

[chesterfield hooligan]

are gypsie's not allowed to buy from Ikea

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[joner8888]

The problem is, until after the event who is to say the person or persons being refused entry is not a bona fide customer ?

I am only being devils advocate here you understand.. We suffer at the hands of travellers ourselves here in Thetford.. in fact we have just had yet another lot plot up within a few hundred yards of my house.. So it is back to locking everything up and ensuring all 6 security cameras are working properly every damned night again !! :Angry:

Real Irish people live 300 miles away--if they turn up here and i detect the slightest tang of the accent, i add 500% to the price and say cash up front---they don`t seem interested then:thumb:
I have been bitten before-- not again !

 

[GJH]

However.. a couple of interesting points raised by both yourself and Bob..(snip for brevity)

I think we have to separate the "race" issue from anything else. English Gypsies and Irish Travellers are ethnic groups recognised by the Race Relations Amendment Act 2000 and, as such have certain rights, including a right to a nomadic lifestyle. Those rights do not extend to other travellers (including motorhomers) who are not in those ethnic groups. See the Link Removed (picked because its where I used to work and had some exposure to the problems) for further information.

However, the rights under the RRAA do not allow the right to trespass on land. Ikea (in this case) are not withholding any licence based on race but on potential actions of people who might use the car park for more than the authorised use of parking whilst shopping at the store. As the last paragraph of the report referenced in the OP makes clear, Ikea have taken their action after identifying a problem and taking appropriate advice.

 

[Chris]

There you go Sundance, not good enough for Treacle Mansions....

I wish

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[Gromett]

No idea Graham ! Not being a legal eagle ( or indeed beagle ) I am just quoting from memory..

However.. a couple of interesting points raised by both yourself and Bob..




Now that statement is rather obtuse as the owner of said land must prove the intrusion as unjust or unjustifiable..


And Bob, whilst I agree with you absolutely........



In todays litigious environment would a case not be argued that removing a licence based on the heritage of the person being stopped is tantamount to racism ?
I would suggest the licencee must show good cause to remove said licence vis vis the individual rather than the race ( yes I appreciate this is, in real life a load of tosh, but we are talking legal'ees here )

Although not a gypsy in any way shape of form, I am directly related by marriage to a huge Gypsy family ( none of whom have been 'on the road' for at least 3 generations ) and do know for an absolute certainty the Romany community have played the race card on a few occasions .. and to good effect I might add

Not just on race as they are only stopping caravans and motohomes.
A gypsy wouldn't be stopped in a car, so race is only one element, intent would seem to pay a part also.

Not sure if that would make a difference in court?

 

[joner8888]

We found the legal ways too long wided down here--they pithched up here a few years back.
We asked them nicley to move on--we just got abused-robbed-laughed at
We borrowed the farmers BIG tractor next door, threw chains around their hitches and dragged them out in the road, then parked old machinery in the gates.:thumb:
Told them, if they come back we will use a fore loader and ram them out next time--- they have not been back :thumb:
After all , this is private land and they were not invited
Now with bars-cameras ect, we have to live in our prison
Law is just a ass--kick it

 

[scotjimland]

..... Ikea have taken their action after identifying a problem and taking appropriate advice.

Then it was poor advice.. and it was badly applied.

if they have a problem with illegal encampments they have every right to try and stop it .. but it's a whole different matter asking everyone who has a campervan / caravan what their ethnicity is before allowing access, in my this is opinion wrong and if i am not mistaken .. illegal ..

If this is legal then what's to stop them preventing access to say blacks, Muslims, Jocks, Jews, ... or whoever they decide is unwelcome.

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[joner8888]

Then it was poor advice.. and it was badly applied.

if they have a problem with illegal encampments they have every right to try and stop it .. but it's a whole different matter asking everyone who has a campervan / caravan what their ethnicity is before allowing access, in my this is opinion wrong and if i am not mistaken .. illegal ..

If this is legal then what's to stop them preventing access to say blacks, Muslims, Jocks, Jews, ... or whoever they decide is unwelcome.

Maybe if they have had a reccuring problem with `one` group or type of people they feel they have right to cover their buisness as they seem fit ?

The same could be said about all `hoodies`and the usuall areas they hang around in, police in shopping centres would question them more than they would me.

If boils down to what you can expect in a certain area and deal with it---just one hoodie in a car park = no problem ---10 Itinerants in vans =think again?

 

[Spacerunner]

Then it was poor advice.. and it was badly applied.

if they have a problem with illegal encampments they have every right to try and stop it .. but it's a whole different matter asking everyone who has a campervan / caravan what their ethnicity is before allowing access, in my this is opinion wrong and if i am not mistaken .. illegal ..

If this is legal then what's to stop them preventing access to say blacks, Muslims, Jocks, Jews, ... or whoever they decide is unwelcome.

Or, even, Ford Focus drivers. :thumb:

 

[GJH]

Then it was poor advice.. and it was badly applied.

if they have a problem with illegal encampments they have every right to try and stop it .. but it's a whole different matter asking everyone who has a campervan / caravan what their ethnicity is before allowing access, in my this is opinion wrong and if i am not mistaken .. illegal ..

If this is legal then what's to stop them preventing access to say blacks, Muslims, Jocks, Jews, ... or whoever they decide is unwelcome.

Meant to post this comment earlier and forgot. I wonder if the individual security guard simply got it wrong when asking if the people were "Gypsies". You're quite right, Jim, that that should not have happened. He should have used the generic term "travellers" to make it clear that there was no racial element involved.

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[motor roamin]

About 12 years ago we used to deliver to Ikea every night Croyden being one, as you drive to the back of the store you pass a traveller site, sometimes due to scrap cars and rubish etc you couldn't get in with an Artic, theft was such a problen that they employed a full time shunter and put trailers in to a secure compound 1 mile away......sorry as others I have suffered at the hands of the scum that seem to think if it aint nailed down it belongs to them, and even if it is solong as they can prise it up it's fair, like all on here I work for what I have and don't nick it off some other poor suck who worked for it........I am right or wrong on Ikeas side........I have said a million times if you want to break the law fine but that should be the end of your rights......might sound harsh but so is the 20k a year they cost me that stops me giving someone a job.

End of rant sorry.

All the best Rick

 

[frogijock]

Good on Ikea, now more companies and councils should start doing the same.
The gypsies/travellers have only themselves to blame for people not wanting them in their area/premises

 

[JJ]

Meant to post this comment earlier and forgot. I wonder if the individual security guard simply got it wrong when asking if the people were "Gypsies". You're quite right, Jim, that that should not have happened. He should have used the generic term[HI] "travellers"[/HI] to make it clear that there was no racial element involved.

It could be argued that anyone approaching an IKEA car park was a "traveller" unless, of course, they were living there on the car park... in which case I suppose they would be allowed to go shopping...

JJ :Cool:

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