Dogs and Buses (1 Viewer)

madbluemad

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We have had a dog all of our lives and she goes wherever we go. She has travelled on buses and trains throughout the UK with no problem at all.

Before Easter we went to a Camp Site just outside of Hereford. Very close to a village called Moreton on Lugg.

Before we went we made sure that there was public transport available.

When we tried to get on the bus we were told that we couldn't get on because they didn't allow dogs on their buses. There was nothing special about their buses by the way.

The bus company was Lug Valley Transport. Hereford web site identifies the "First" bus company as being the carrier for this route, First do allow dogs. I'm having a row at the moment with Herefordshire County Council who's transport manager thinks that my complaint is an insignificant waste of his time. He is wrong.

Funnily enough my wife's friend has a friend in Hereford and she rang her this morning to recount the story. She was amazed because all of her friends do take their dogs on the buses in Hereford. It seems to be this one bus company who have a cosy relationship with the transport manager.

This incident has raised a lot of issues, too many to recount here and now. Some people have been taken into Hereford and Leominster by bus and then refused transportation back. There is no other bus.

I need to find a way in to the local councilors ears, which I will do.

The Camp Site by the way is Cuckoos Corner, a small CS. It also has another camping field which is not CC so anybody can go. Great pitches for big RV's or Fivers.
Jim
:Smile:
 

haganap

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Hi Jim
I have looked in to this previously with various companies. The answer I have always been given is that although busses' allow dogs on, its at the drivers discretion.

I took Tara on a bus last year and was charged a childs price for her because of her size. :Sad:
 

GJH

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Without knowing the details of communications with the council transport manager, it could well be that he has no power to take action against the bus company - and, thus, carrying on any discussions would be a waste of your time as well as his.

Bus companies, unless bound by the terms of a specific contract with a local council, can lay down their own rules just as any private business can.

You might get more of a result by complaining to the bus company direct but, unlike local authorities, there is no legal requirement for them to respond.

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madbluemad

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Hi Jim
I have looked in to this previously with various companies. The answer I have always been given is that although busses' allow dogs on, its at the drivers discretion.

I took Tara on a bus last year and was charged a childs price for her because of her size. :Sad:

Yes, Most bus companies leave it to the discretion of the driver and we have never before had a problem. Its just this one bus company that are a law to themselves.

The Herefordshire Transport Manager thinks that he has the last word but he's mistaken, big time.

I remember when you got your dog I thought that this was one of the problems that you would have, with it being so big.

All bus companies charge for dogs, we've been charged between 50p to 80p. Sometimes the one ticket lasts for the day. I don't mind paying as long as we can get about.

Jim
:Smile:
 

Glynn

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It's disgraceful especially with small dogs. We have had this problem once, another bus arrived straight after the one that refused ( different company) and let us on no problem.
 

TheBig1

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Could this be down to the same issue as sombebody else had last year where a muslim bus driver refused to transport a dog on his bus? In their culture dogs are sean as unclean and not allowed to be transported with people. A great many muslim taxi drivers also refure to transport dogs or will only do so in the boot as luggage.

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madbluemad

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Without knowing the details of communications with the council transport manager, it could well be that he has no power to take action against the bus company - and, thus, carrying on any discussions would be a waste of your time as well as his.

Bus companies, unless bound by the terms of a specific contract with a local council, can lay down their own rules just as any private business can.

You might get more of a result by complaining to the bus company direct but, unlike local authorities, there is no legal requirement for them to respond.

I know Graham. I haven't been speaking to the Transport Manger, Hereford County Council have. He just works for the council and as you say has nothing to do with it really. Any company or organisation can do as they wish within the confines of the law.

However, it is the responsibility of the council to provide a fit and adequate service to the public. If the bus company are not doing this then the council must remove the the contract from the offending company and issue it to a company that does comply.

If you look at Hereford web site they show the bus companies that operate within their area. The offending company are not shown on the web site. First bus company are the named carrier and they do allow dogs.

Herefordshire are not taking their duty of care to the environment by allowing this company to act in this manner.

First, the nominated bus company hold a certificate that says they operate an Environmental Management System which complies with BS EN ISO 14001. This certificate is issued by a Notified Body who are regulated by UKAS. They are in compliance with this standard.

Neither Herefordshire County Council or Lugg Valley Transport company are compliant with those parts of the Environmental Legislation that deal with Environmental Aspects or Impacts. By not complying with this legislation they are breaking the law.

It may seem a long journey between Environmental Legislation and Dogs on Buses but there is a a very definite and demonstrable link. There are a few other issues that Herefordshire need to deal with regarding their bus services which I intend to investigate.

I have no time for Council Employees who are of the opinion that they are above it all particularly when they don't have the authority to change a companies operating procedures anyway.

Jim
:Smile:
 
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madbluemad

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Could this be down to the same issue as sombebody else had last year where a muslim bus driver refused to transport a dog on his bus? In their culture dogs are sean as unclean and not allowed to be transported with people. A great many muslim taxi drivers also refure to transport dogs or will only do so in the boot as luggage.

I wish it was that simple.
Jim
:Smile:
 

GJH

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Sorry, Jim, but I'm confused. What legislation requires a council to provide a fit and adequate service to the public in terms of buses? As the council's web site says
Most bus services, called "commercial" bus services, are planned and provided by bus companies, which are solely responsible for the routes, times and fares charged. "Contracted" bus services are run by bus companies to service specifications set out by Herefordshire Council, which also pays the companies the difference between the operating cost and the income from fares on these services. Contracted services are only provided where no suitable commercial service exists.
If the bus company is solely responsible then the council has no responsibility.

What environmental legislation says that dogs must be allowed on buses or that details of all bus operators must be given on council web sites?

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madbluemad

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Sorry, Jim, but I'm confused. What legislation requires a council to provide a fit and adequate service to the public in terms of buses? As the council's web site says
If the bus company is solely responsible then the council has no responsibility.

What environmental legislation says that dogs must be allowed on buses or that details of all bus operators must be given on council web sites?

Yes Graham, your confused and I dont have the time to go into the detail of it.
Jim
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Jim
Don't waste your time with local petty beaurocrats contact the traffic commissioners fo the area.

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GJH

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Jim
Don't waste your time with local petty beaurocrats contact the traffic commissioners fo the area.

If that's an attack on a council officer it seems unwarranted because, from the information which Jim has posted, the problem is with a private sector company which, like all private sector companies, can set its own terms & conditions provided it doesn't break the law.

What would you expect the traffic commissioners to do? Their remit is "to champion safe, fair and reliable passenger and goods transport." not to instruct companies to carry dogs.
 

jhorsf

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Traffic commissioner office may be able to give you information and they issue the operators licence so will know what they have to comply with for psv laws


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If that's an attack on a council officer it seems unwarranted because, from the information which Jim has posted, the problem is with a private sector company which, like all private sector companies, can set its own terms & conditions provided it doesn't break the law.

What would you expect the traffic commissioners to do? Their remit is "to champion safe, fair and reliable passenger and goods transport." not to instruct companies to carry dogs.
I doubt it as a council officer up to my retirement 2 years ago. The bus operators are commissioned by the Traffic commissioners on the recomendation of the transport executive be it a quango or County Council. When I have had occasion to complain I was informed to contact the commission,whose remitmas you say, is to maintain the standards of operation. I dealt with them many times especially when operators refused disabled passengers with wheelchairs or guide dogs.
As with everything in life from public servants to camp site wardens,there is good and bad and jobsworths.
 

pappajohn

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Hi Jim
I have looked in to this previously with various companies. The answer I have always been given is that although busses' allow dogs on, its at the drivers discretion.

I took Tara on a bus last year and was charged a childs price for her because of her size. :Sad:
I hope she got her own seat as well Paul :Eeek:
 

lorger

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When i was younger i passed my bus test just so i could earn extra money to get married we where told then that we could only let 1 dog on at a time i assume incase they bark at each other and would charge them a 1/4 of an adult price never done this as dog was on seat anyway.

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poppys

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I worked for First Group (worst group) in the past for 20 years and the company policy was to allow dogs to travel for a fixed fair ,70p.This fare was regarded as a day ticket. The driver is allowed to refuse the dog travel if it is deemed unruly or if the bus was full and that the dog would have to have been in the gangway between the rows of seats.
 

johnp10

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Has it crosssed anyone's mind that the dog may have been refused because other passengers objected to it?
I wouldnt see anything wrong in that, no different to objecting to the presence of snakes, rats or any other animal.
The Traffic Commissioners are interested in Operator licensing in terms of finances to run the business, vehicle maintenance and drivers' hours monitoring.
Isues like the one being discussed are of no interest to them.
All carriers in the UK, both passenger and goods, are "Private", not "Common" Carriers.
This being the case they can accept or reject any carriage as they see fit, that being passengers animals or goods.
Complain as long as you will to whom you will, you will get no joy.
 

GJH

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Has it crosssed anyone's mind that the dog may have been refused because other passengers objected to it?

That's a good point. As some Funsters know I am allergic to furry animals, which can bring on an asthma attack. Manageable enough most of the time but being in a confined space with a dog could cause problems, as could deposits of dog hairs on bus seats.

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madbluemad

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Has it crosssed anyone's mind that the dog may have been refused because other passengers objected to it?

It wasn't the case that other passengers objected. As I said it is the bus companies policy and they are perfectley entitled to apply that policy, as long as they are not breaking the law.
Complain as long as you will to whom you will, you will get no joy.
Not true. I have a course of action which I will be taking. I am 100% confident in my course of action.

Jim
:Smile:
 

GJH

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Complain as long as you will to whom you will, you will get no joy.
Not true. I have a course of action which I will be taking. I am 100% confident in my course of action.

Jim
:Smile:

Are you going to let us in on it Jim? Seriously, I am interested because I can't see how you would get round their policy. However, if it is possible then it might be useful to other people in other situations.
 
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madbluemad

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I'm not being rude Graham but it depends upon a few pieces of what may apper to be unrelated legislation being valid to my argument. I still have a bit of research to do.

The Town and Borough councils are elected to provide the best service possible to the electorate. I know that you have said earlier that you dont particularley agree with this.

The Town and Borough Councils are responsible for awarding service contracts for the town and Borough.

These service contractors must provide a service that is adequate and legal. If the service is inadequate or illegal then the contract should be withdrawn from that service provider and given to a service provider who will provide an adequate and legal service.

The bus service in question is shown on the Herefordshire website as being provided by "First". The "First web site shows the service as being provided by them and gives a detailed timetable.

The "First" web site states their policy for carrying dogs as being "At the sole discretion of the driver"

"First" are certified in accordance with BS EN ISO 14001. This is a European Standard that deals with the Environment and is widley respected. It would be difficult to comply with environmental law without the correct application of this standard.

The certificate is isuued by "A Notified Body", the "Notied Body" is regulated by "UKAS", "UKAS" are regulated by the European Parliament.

The bus rout in question is not being provided by "First", "First " offer a weekend service that is "subsidised". During the week the service is provided by Lugg Valley Transport. There is no evidence that any contract exists between Lugg Valley Transport and Herefordshire Council.

It would appear that "First" have subcontracted the week day service to Lugg Vally Transport.

The policy for Lugg Valley Transport is that they do not carry dogs other than dogs for the Blind and dogs that asssit those wth hearing disabilities.

The service runs between Leominster and Hereford and there is no other way of making this journy other than by car, or in our case, as tourists, by Motorhome.

I can not leave my dog because there isnt anybody else to look after it.

Now the bus company is barring me from travelling by bus because I have a dog. The stated policy of "First" the official bus provider is to reduce pollution by enabling people to travel by bus rather than car, or in my case a Motorhome, driven by a 6.8 Litre V10 engine who's vehicle emissions present a "Significant Impact" upon the Environment.

It is an absolute requirement of BS EN ISO 14001, that the company must identify their environmental aspects and evaluate and document the impacts that the aspect will have upon the environment.

If "First (or any other company who wants to comply with European Law) do not do this they are in breach of BS EN ISO 14001 and European Environmental Law.

Herefordshire Council are in fact in breach of European law because they have forced me to travell in a manner which will impact upon the environment. This is illegal.

"First have failed to comply with the requirements of their BS EN ISO 14001 Certification and it should be withdrawn from them until they correct their procedures.

There is no evidence that Lugg Valley Transport have any procedures in place to demonstrate that they make any attempt to comply with European Law and reduce or eliminate pollution that their operations are responsible for. If this is the case, they are breaking the law.

It is the responsibility of the council to provide me with adequate public transport and they are not doing is. They should ensure that "First" comply with their own operating procedures.

Just as a side issue, Lugg Valley Transport are the only bus company that I have ever known who impliment this policy.

It has now been discovered that some dogs along this route have been allowed to travell on Lugg Valley Transport. Since this incident with me and my dog, Lugg Valley Transport have been instructed to ensure that their policies and procedures are fully complied with in all cases. This now means that local residents who live between Hereford and Leominster can not take their dogs on to the bus.

This is currentley causing severe problems for the council and the bus company.

Anyhow, thats enough for now.

Jim
:Eeek:

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johnp10

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The "First" web site states their policy for carrying dogs as being "At the sole discretion of the driver"

[HI]The driver simply exercised his discretion. [/HI]

It would appear that "First" have subcontracted the week day service to Lugg Vally Transport.

The policy for Lugg Valley Transport is that they do not carry dogs other than dogs for the Blind and dogs that asssit those wth hearing disabilities.

[HI]If First has subcontracted, it would have been allowed by the original contract.[/HI]

Now the bus company is barring me from travelling by bus because I have a dog. The stated policy of "First" the official bus provider is to reduce pollution by enabling people to travel by bus rather than car, or in my case a Motorhome, driven by a 6.8 Litre V10 engine who's vehicle emissions present a "Significant Impact" upon the Environment.
Herefordshire Council are in fact in breach of European law because they have forced me to travell in a manner which will impact upon the environment. This is illegal.

[HI]The Council have neither forced you to drive a vehicle with a "6.8 Litre V10 engine who's vehicle emissions present a "Significant Impact" upon the Environment"
nor to travel anywhere, so the premise that they have forced yuou to travel in an environmentally unfriendly manner doesnt stand up.
You made that choice.
How can you make a statement like that about your vehicle and then play the environmental card? [/HI]

It is the responsibility of the council to provide me with adequate public transport and they are not doing is. They should ensure that "First" comply with their own operating procedures.

[HI]Just because dogs arent carried doesnt make the service inadequate.
The health of folk like GJH must be considered before the dog, as must folk like me who dont want to pay a bus fare only to get covered in dog hairs.
Were I a driver,only blind dogs would be carried. Any other would be refused, especially a wet one.[/HI]

Jim
:Eeek:

I think you are on a hiding to nothing with this, Jim.
You may get a bit of sympathy, but very little else.
Bus service providers are contracted to carry passengers, not animals.
Also consider that many people feel intimidated by dogs, especially large ones.
Again, they should be considered before the dog.
 

John & Joan

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Traffic commissioner office may be able to give you information and they issue the operators licence so will know what they have to comply with for psv laws


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The Traffic commisioners no longer issue service licences or control fares for bus route. That was taken over by the local authorites on deregulation.

The Commisioners issue operator licences and are charged with the safe operation of such licenced operators vehicles.

VOSA inspect and MOT the vehicle another thing that the commisioners did when I operated a coach hire business.

The bus in question may have been on hire to First Bus if they hold the contract from the local authority to operate on that route. All routes are either economic or run under a subsidy from the local authority now. Buses no longer have separate Service, Excursion and Tour or Private Hire only licences. A bus or coach can be used for any of these purposes unless the contact with the authority specifies a specific type such as low entry step for that service. You can operate a service route now by registering it with the authority 6 weeks before you commence. The retrictions imposed by the Traffic Commisioner licencing have gone.

Tours and Excursions are no longer governed by licencing. Private hire never was.

Things have vertually returned to the pre 1930 Transport Act days at deregulation. Local councils then licenced buses, drivers and conductors as well as routes in their area. Some were very tight in this control other were more relaxed.

John

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SuperMike

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The world is full of problems. Yours is that, your dog was not allowed on a bus. Never mind, you will get over it. :Smile:
 

GJH

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I'm sure you are not being rude, Jim, as neither am I. However, I find it difficult to believe that a number of points on which you base your case (picked out below) have validity. As JohnP says, I think you are on a hiding to nothing with this.


The Town and Borough Councils are responsible for awarding service contracts for the town and Borough.
Under what legislation? And is the service you wanted to use one which is contracted by the council or a (totally separate) commercial enterprise over which the council has no control?

"First" are certified in accordance with BS EN ISO 14001. This is a European Standard that deals with the Environment and is widley respected. It would be difficult to comply with environmental law without the correct application of this standard.
But what relevance does the standard have to this situation?

It is the responsibility of the council to provide me with adequate public transport and they are not doing is.
What legislation places that responsibility on the council?
 

Chris

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I appreciate it was a pain at the time but can't see what remedy you expect to achieve.

An apology?

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