american troops (1 Viewer)

[robnchris]

What was this soldier thinking, going out and murdering Afghan families.

As sad as this is and we are concerned about any reprecussions that might befall our troops because of this idiot Americans actions.

Noticed he didn`t turn the gun on himself like most do that perform an action like this.
Be very interesting to see were the court case gets held, the Americans are very quick to extradite people from the UK so by that reason he should be made to face an Afghan court and of course their penalties.

It`s time Mr Cameron ended this treaty with the Americans and stopped the extradtion of UK residents.

 

[Forestboy]

Cameron is in USA now talking to Obhama about global security.
Yeah Right we can really trust those two. More likely planning their next invasion whats the betting they get involved in Syria. And the yanks would just love to have a go at Iran, God help us all if that happens because they'll bite back and hard.

 

[haganap]

Is it not possible that he just flipped and lost it?
maybe a psychotic breakdown with the pressure of doing one of the most dangerous jobs in the world?
Should we maybe let him at least have a court appearance and a "FAIR" trial first? who knows maybe even an assessment?

Although mental illness can never be hid behind for the actions of some, I promise you this, as an emergency practitioner in the field, it could be you next.

I see it daily to make assumptions on how man (and women) can and does completely loose it. I see returning soldiers regularly with little or no support to cope with what they have seen.

please at least let some trial occur before you hang him.

No its done nothing for our job there, but, maybe the American's should have a god look at how this happened in the first place? lack of psychological testing? lack or R&R? failure in the recruitment process?

Who knows.

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[Chris]

I can see why he flipped to be honest.

Colleagues blown up on a regular basis, Afghan soldiers shooting and killing the soldiers training them. Add to that the general hostility and hatred and an invisible enemy and there is a recipe for disaster.

I would not trust an Afghan court to give him anything approaching a fair trial.

Get everyone out of there and let them blow each other up.

 

[Forestboy]

What this soldier has done is terrible and the Talyban will use it to stir up even more hatred towards us. But what kind of stress are these soldiers under, we can't even imagine. The brit soldiers do 6 months and then come home the yank soldiers are out there indefinately, I'm amazed more of this kind of thing has'nt happened.

The bloody politicians should be made to fight wars not our kids.

When our son came back from Afghanistan he was a total mess, he lost his best mate on their last day, all he kept saying was "we left him behind" it was heart breaking.
The armies answer was to give em a crate of beer get plastered and let it all out. Three years later he's still very bitter although he never talks about it and the support from the army was virtually non existent. A bit like our politicians they make all the right noises and then do bugger all.

 

[callumwa]

[HI]What was this soldier thinking, going out and murdering Afghan families.[/HI]

As sad as this is and we are concerned about any reprecussions that might befall our troops because of this idiot Americans actions.

Noticed he didn`t turn the gun on himself like most do that perform an action like this.
Be very interesting to see were the court case gets held, the Americans are very quick to extradite people from the UK so by that reason he should be made to face an Afghan court and of course their penalties.

It`s time Mr Cameron ended this treaty with the Americans and stopped the extradtion of UK residents.

We will probably never know what he was thinking. He may not even know himself why he "lost it". Working in the most hostile environment imaginable, it's not beyond reason some guys are going to lose it. Every person, every car that passes could be the one that is going to blow you and your colleagues to shreds. As Haganap has said the line between mental stability and instability, can be so fine at any time, never mind in such a god damn awful hellhole.

The presence of our troops, American troops and others is doing nothing to improve the situation, there so pull them out now!
Every "Invader" has left Afghanistan with their tales between their legs. We will be no different.

As to those that argue that our 400+ losses will have been for nothing, only time will tell, but that surely does not mean another 100 or more families should also be bereaved purely to "justify" those losses, because of an indeterminate date set by a Politician.

A UK survey last night (BBC Newsnight) said 73% say pull out now, but will the Politicians listen? I fear not, and our casualty toll will just keep climbing for nothing.

Enough is enough, ten years plus, longer than the 2 World Wars added together.
Bring our boys and girls home now........

Callum

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[GJH]

I would not trust an Afghan court to give him anything approaching a fair trial.

Interesting comment given that we have been told so often that our troops are there to build a state which will (amongst other things) have a fair justice system.

If the Americans actually believe that they are building such a state they should hand the soldier over for trial. If they don't then they must admit that the whole war was simply Bush's misguided revenge attempt and get the troops out.

 

[slobadoberbob]

I fly 'we support our troops' flag

I fly 'we support our troops' flag at shows.. I will continue until our troops come home.

I also believe we should send the politicians out and let them do a tour, perhaps they then would think about those hundreds of faces we see each time they add to the list of those that have given there life.

I do not know why a solder lost it and killed these families ... but I cannot be the judge and jury without the facts. if he flipped it may go towards understanding the issues, but I do not want to judge the issue. It is regrettable that any life is lost and it is more so when it is a non combatant.

I agree it will have it's own knock on and even more will lose there lives.

But at the end of the day the countries politicians need to carry the ultimate blame..

Bob

 

[robnchris]

Is it not possible that he just flipped and lost it?
maybe a psychotic breakdown with the pressure of doing one of the most dangerous jobs in the world?
Should we maybe let him at least have a court appearance and a "FAIR" trial first? who knows maybe even an assessment?

Although mental illness can never be hid behind for the actions of some, I promise you this, as an emergency practitioner in the field, it could be you next.

I see it daily to make assumptions on how man (and women) can and does completely loose it. I see returning soldiers regularly with little or no support to cope with what they have seen.

please at least let some trial occur before you hang him.

No its done nothing for our job there, but, maybe the American's should have a god look at how this happened in the first place? lack of psychological testing? lack or R&R? failure in the recruitment process?

Who knows.

I`m not for one moment having a go at the Troops out there, they are facing an impossible task, a war that more than enough people think can`t be won.

My gripe is with the our politicians and the Americans, ok so he lost it actually the reason he did what he did doesn`t come in to my train of thought, I`m more concerned with the way the Americans appear to be dictating to our government when the majority of the people that voted these politicians into office don`t support these actions.
It`s a tragedy that they listen to the Americans yet are deaf to our demands, what can we do to make them listen?

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[haganap]

I`m not for one moment having a go at the Troops out there, they are facing an impossible task, a war that more than enough people think can`t be won.

My gripe is with the our politicians and the Americans, ok so he lost it actually the reason he did what he did doesn`t come in to my train of thought, I`m more concerned with the way the Americans appear to be dictating to our government when the majority of the people that voted these politicians into office don`t support these actions.
It`s a tragedy that they listen to the Americans yet are deaf to our demands, what can we do to make them listen?

Rob, I agree with what you say,

my Gripe is that you described the man as an idiot. That is something that can be aimed at our politicians for sure, but not at the soldier, as we know not why what happened happened.

 

[johnp10]

What was this soldier thinking, going out and murdering Afghan families.

As sad as this is and we are concerned about any reprecussions that might befall our troops because of this[HI] idiot [/HI]Americans actions.

Noticed he didn`t turn the gun on himself like most do that perform an action like this.
Be very interesting to see were the court case gets held, the Americans are very quick to extradite people from the UK so by that reason he should be made to face an Afghan court and of course their penalties.

It`s time Mr Cameron ended this treaty with the Americans and stopped the extradtion of UK residents.

Have you considered wether this "idiot" has cracked under the pressure of successive tours in Iraq and now Afghan, attempting to give these people a better life?
Do you think this married man with a family just went out, killed 16 people and then calmly walked back to his base FOR FUN?
People do occasionally crack under these pressures.
Seen it happen to the most unlikely guys.
Not nice.

What has this got to do with US extraditing Brits?

Interesting comment given that we have been told so often that our troops are there to build a state which will (amongst other things) have a fair justice system.

If the Americans actually believe that they are building such a state [HI]they should hand the soldier over for trial.[/HI] If they don't then they must admit that the whole war was simply Bush's misguided revenge attempt and get the troops out.

Hand him over just like that:?
No they shouldnt, Graham.
They are already baying for blood.
There can be no fair trial for him in a country already using his actions, either cognisant or not, as a vehicle to beget more violence.
Would you have him stand a show trial with a foregone verdict without any psychiatric assessment or investigation?

 

[yorkieman]

Rob, I agree with what you say,

my Gripe is that you described the man as an idiot. That is something that can be aimed at our politicians for sure, but not at the soldier, as we know not why what happened happened.

It's true. Until we know what happened it is best to keep an open mind.

Who knows, he might have suffered many major losses himself (friends and comrades) and then just lost it.

That's not to say he was right to do - not at all - but I suspect we'd need to walk in his shoes to know why he did what he did.

Like many others, I wish we could just end the whole mess and bring our lads and lasses home (and all the other nations too). It is a futile exercise and I dread to think what Afghanistan will be like 10 years after we have left. I doubt it will be the civilised democracy we had been hoping for it to be.

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[robnchris]

Rob, I agree with what you say,

my Gripe is that you described the man as an idiot. That is something that can be aimed at our politicians for sure, but not at the soldier, as we know not why what happened happened.

Point taken and as an opening gambit on reflection my choice of describing him as an "Idiot" without knowing the pressures he could have been under could well have been politically incorrect.

Though after reading other responses in this thread I would say there are a whole other bunch of guys out there that haven`t gone out and turned their rifles on civillians all experiencing the same situation.

In answer to "johnp10" point "Do you think this married man with a family just went out, killed 16 people and then calmly walked back to his base FOR FUN?"

I have no idea why he did it hence my opening sentance "What was this soldier thinking, going out and murdering Afghan families"
Because that is exactly what he did, whether he was under the influence of stress, temporary insanity, drugs or whatever.

My prime concern is the repercussions that his actions could have on our troops.

My point about the extradition is plain, the Americans have two options here hang him out to dry and give him over to the Afghans for a trial or do what they do best and please themselves and take him back to the states.

Personally I agree with Graham, the paranoid Americans are happy to use the extradition card when they want to bring people to the states so why shouldn`t it be a two way street.

This soldier killed 16 people as you say, women and children in Afghanistan and that is were he should be tried and by their law, he didn`t give them any options when pulling the trigger and in doing so he has endangered the lives of his comrades.

 

[slobadoberbob]

would he get a fair trial?

All I ask is would he get a fair trial?

Bob

 

[scotjimland]

All I ask is would he get a fair trial?

Bob

in the US or Afghanistan ?

From an Afghani's point of view he won't get a fair trial in the US .. they not only want justice to be done , also see it being done..

try the boot on the other foot..

if he had murdered 16 innocent civilians outside a USAF base in the UK would we not demand he be tried in an English court ?

To cite another case..

Al Magrahi, ( or however you spell his name) the Lockerbie bomber was tried in a Scottish court.. that is where the crime was committed.

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[robnchris]

All I ask is would he get a fair trial?

Bob

How could he not get a fair trial?

It`s not like he was framed or there is any doubt that he didn`t do it.

 

[johnp10]

All I ask is would he get a fair trial?

Bob

How could he not get a fair trial?

It`s not like he was framed or there is any doubt that he didn`t do it.

Of course he wont get a fair trial in Afghan.
Ridiculous to think he would.
It's naive to think they want justice.
What they want is revenge in blood. Justice doesn't come into it, nor does the man's state of mind.

Prattling on about giving them a fair democratic system is ok, but to do so without first hand knowledge of the psyche involved is a waste of time.
As soon as we pull out, the Taliban will be back in power.
Revenge is the thing where any foreigner is concerned, especially non muslim foreigners.

Give the man a fair chance. Wait until his mental state is established before condemning him, which is what handing him over would be.

Where this happening in the UK is concerned, this is a civilised country in which he would get s fair trial.
We dont have an anti foreigner revenge culture.

 

[GJH]

Hand him over just like that:?
No they shouldnt, Graham.
They are already baying for blood.
There can be no fair trial for him in a country already using his actions, either cognisant or not, as a vehicle to beget more violence.
Would you have him stand a show trial with a foregone verdict without any psychiatric assessment or investigation?

You took the words out of context John.

If the Americans actually believe that they are building such a state they should hand the soldier over for trial. If they don't then they must admit that the whole war was simply Bush's misguided revenge attempt and get the troops out.

What I was pointing out over the two sentences is that the Americans have a choice. Either the war lives up to their justification, in which case they have to trust the Afghan government, or it doesn't, in which case they should get the heck out. As Rob points out the Americans want to have their cake and eat it.

This episode is obviously a tragedy for the soldier but even more so for those he killed and their families.

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