For the mechanics amongst you (1 Viewer)

[Snowbird]

I have a friend here with an elderly Fiat 2.5 turbo diesel who asked me a question this morning that am having problems answering.
He tells me that his camper will go into gear OK when cold but when its been working all day he has difficulty selecting 1st and reverse gear. Its as though the clutch is not operating. If he switches the engine off he can then select 1st or reverse whilst holding the clutch in and then drive off. He tells me that there is no clutch slip at all. What could be his problem. The correct answer could mean a new funster.

 

[Terry]

Not a mechanic but my monies on gear linkage adjustment
terry

 

[Peter JohnsCross MH]

The more mature Fiats were known for 'rice pudding gearboxes' i.e sloppy generally due to worn linkages, not expensive to replace.

Geo would be the expert give him a PM

Peter

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[Popeye]

It sounds as if the centre plate is not fully releasing (free form flywheel and cover), first thing to check is the master and slave cylinder operation or cable if it is cable operated.

If hydraulic, then attempt to bleed air from the system, to attain a better 'pedal'. If problem re-occurs then air is either bleeding in through Master or Slave cylinder.

 

[Snowbird]

Gear linkage adjustment was my first thought too,but why only when its been working hard all day and hot. When its on motorway work he tells me its OK and its only when he is on mountain roads and using the gearbox hard.

 

[Snowbird]

Its cable opperated.

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[veevee]

Had 2 Ducatos with gear selector problems, it's generally wear inside the gearbox that's the cause.

I hoped it was the cable selection system but never was.

The first time it happened I had lost reverse, first and second and a difficult to get fifth. Had to make two collections in central Paris with a very loaded van and just prayed I didn't end up down one of the many cul de sacs they have. From there had to travel back to the UK.

Chose to collect during evening for less traffic but had never before realised how many hills there are in Paris, you soon know trying to pull away from traffic lights uphill in third gear!

Second van I lost reverse and fifth, just makes life difficult.

 

[aba]

maybe just the gearbox oil needs changing.

is that not the one that had water ingress troubles on the gearbox???
some fiats used to get water into the gearbox from the scuttle panel which would mean whilst cold the oil and water would separate and then combine and emulsify when warm loosing viscosity (slipperiness)

could be wrong but its an option.

 

[simsy56]

My money is on worn linkages.

Craig

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[TheBig1]

Sounds like a shaft bearing in the gearbox heating up and swelling, so making it difficult to choose first and reverse. First point check gearbox oil and change it if not done for a few years. so many people change the engine oil regularly but rarely think of gearbox or axle oils

 

[bigfoot]

If the 'stick' is on the floor it will be linkage. It was adapted from the column change which was on LHD models,which was more efficient,somehow british drivers had an aversion to these preferring a 'stick' on the floor.
The Bowden cable models had the stick on the dash.
If the former it may be slack if the latter the cables may be stretching.

 

[veevee]

Sounds like a shaft bearing in the gearbox heating up and swelling, so making it difficult to choose first and reverse. First point check gearbox oil and change it if not done for a few years. so many people change the engine oil regularly but rarely think of gearbox or axle oils

Quite agree, but as ours were working vans we changed gearbox oil every year.
Both of our vans had more than 100,000 miles on their clocks but were driven with consideration.
Our current van have just changed the front tyres after 56,000 miles, so not very hard on the mechanicals.

So far the gear selection at 97,000 miles is holding up but not quite as smooth as say 50,000 miles ago, most of our miles are on motorway.

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[Snowbird]

OK, he tells me he had the gearoil changed before leaving home and I have just checked the dipstick and its fine. Its a LHD with the column change with cables. I have tried it and its working as he said,no problems at all selecting any gears. He tells me he only has the problem of selecting first and reverse when he has been working the gearbox hard all day. My thoughts were going towards a weak pressure plate but am not so sure now.

 

[Reallyretired]

Could be a contaminated clutch plate that is getting sticky when warm.

 

[spannermanwigan]

1) Possibly partly seized flywheel center bearing, tightening up more
when hot, causing drag on input shaft. overcome by weight of vehicle
and engine drive when started in gear.

2) High spots on flywheel and or pressure plate faces, distortion increasing
with increase in engine and clutch temperature.

3) Distorted Diaphragm or worn fingers on pressure plate.

This is of course taking that the hydraulic release mechanism has been checked
and is in good order.

Has to be a flywheel/clutch related problem as only thing that changes when
engine is stopped over when clutch is pressed, is that there is no possibility
of drag on the input shaft, hence gears can be selected.

Hope this helps
regards
Steve :thumb:

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[Snowbird]

1) Possibly partly seized flywheel center bearing, tightening up more
when hot, causing drag on input shaft. overcome by weight of vehicle
and engine drive when started in gear.

2) High spots on flywheel and or pressure plate faces, distortion increasing
with increase in engine and clutch temperature.

3) Distorted Diaphragm or worn fingers on pressure plate.

This is of course taking that the hydraulic release mechanism has been checked
and is in good order.

Has to be a flywheel/clutch related problem as only thing that changes when
engine is stopped over when clutch is pressed, is that there is no possibility
of drag on the input shaft, hence gears can be selected.

Hope this helps
regards
Steve :thumb:

Thanks to all for your thoughts on this. I am going for this diagnosis and wonder if you advise him to get it sorted before leaving for home next week or let it develop.

 

[spannermanwigan]

If the mechanics and engineering skills are as good as your
posts give the impression they are in Marrocco, and value for money
also. I wouldn't hesitate I would have it sorted.
However Im confident with a competent driver at the wheel the
journey home could be carefully completed though a failure in Spain
or France I fear would be very expensive indeed.

regards
Steve:thumb:

 

[darklord]

Its a well documented problem, I had it, i cured it....with help from here Broken Link Removed

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[spannermanwigan]

Its a well documented problem, I had it, i cured it....with help from here Broken Link Removed

Don't think he has a sloppy gear change, maybe he has ?

regards
Steve

 

[Snowbird]

No there is no sloppy gear change, its a LHD with the column change not the RHD with the floor mounted gear change. I know the problems with these as I had one that smashed my knuckles on the dash every time I changed gear.
I was thinking along the lines of a weak pressure plate as the problem only becomes evident when he is working the gearbox hard ie, over mountain ranges. I asked if there was any sign of clutch slip and he assured me not. we are possibly 400 miles from any mechanics that I know so thought it a good idea to ask here first.

 

[DP+JAY]

You say it's a cable clutch.
If the clutch ajustment is correct then I suspect either the cable is about to snap (check for frayed cable at each end and rusting/splits along it's length) or the pressure plate is about to collapse.
I have known this scenario on many vehicles and these are the two main causes.

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[pappajohn]

the gearbox oil may be new.....but is it the correct grade ?

the garage may have bunged in whatever grade they had to hand.

 

[gozomike]

It sounds as if the clutch is draging. If you can start it in gear does the vehicle creep along with the clutch pressed?

 

[Snowbird]

It sounds as if the clutch is draging. If you can start it in gear does the vehicle creep along with the clutch pressed?

When I tried it no it didn't creep and had no problem with it at all. I could select all gears without problem. The only problem seems to be when the gearbox is worked hard and then its only 1st and reverse thats difficult to select whilst
the engine is running. I cannot get it to do this without taking it for a hard days drive over the Atlas mountains.That's the problem. He tells me the gearbox was filled with the correct semi synthetic oil and its at the correct level as I checked the dipstick myself.

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[gozomike]

Hi. What I am wondering is if the clutch is only just clearing when it is cold could it be getting hot with the driving you describe and then not fully clearing. If so it might not show up on say motorway driving where the clutch is not being used. Could be the cable has stretched and needs adjusting. First & Reverse are usually the most difficult to engage.
Mike

 

[Landy lover]

Most of us old'ns have had situations in the past where a clutch has gone and we have continued to drive without the benefit of a clutch just by matching engine speed and road speed - I have recovered many vehicles in the past where I can still drive them but the 'driver' cannot from cars to HGV's ( bit interesting with 30 ton behind you ) - I suspect you can too Dave - when this problem occurs can you change gear without the clutch by matching the road and engine speeds ?? This would settle whether or not it is the clutch or the gearbox / linkage

 

[Snowbird]

Most of us old'ns have had situations in the past where a clutch has gone and we have continued to drive without the benefit of a clutch just by matching engine speed and road speed - I have recovered many vehicles in the past where I can still drive them but the 'driver' cannot from cars to HGV's ( bit interesting with 30 ton behind you ) - I suspect you can too Dave - when this problem occurs can you change gear without the clutch by matching the road and engine speeds ?? This would settle whether or not it is the clutch or the gearbox / linkage

Agree regarding the changing of gears without the clutch, I once had a Guy big J with a Gardner and David Brown box that I only ever used the clutch to start off, after that I never used it as the damned thing needed a gorilla to press it down. The problem with this one is it only happens when its been working all day and its just not practical to get the thing hot to see whats happening myself. Am going to have a look at the clutch cable today and see if theres any slack in that.

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[joner8888]

Clutch adjustment needed, either bleed out hydraulic system or check slave cylinder on gearbox housing for leaks or worn seals.
Some had a cable system which can be simply adjusted up.
As a test - when problem occours, try pumping up and down on pedal as to increase the pressure then try putting in gear---may help!:thumb:

 

[gozomike]

Hi.
Another suggestion from someone else who has been in the trade is oil, either from the back of the engine or the front of the gearbox, getting on the clutch. Is there any oil showing on the bottom of the bellhousing.

Mike

 

[veevee]

Agree regarding the changing of gears without the clutch, I once had a Guy big J with a Gardner and David Brown box that I only ever used the clutch to start off, after that I never used it as the damned thing needed a gorilla to press it down. The problem with this one is it only happens when its been working all day and its just not practical to get the thing hot to see whats happening myself. Am going to have a look at the clutch cable today and see if theres any slack in that.

Did you ever get to the bottom of the gear selection problem... thought about this post a few times and wondered

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