Towing with an A-frame (1 Viewer)

BriW

Free Member
Dec 31, 2011
2
0
north east
Funster No
19,286
MH
van conversion
Exp
2003
Thanks to all members for their welcome.
This must be an old chestnut but I can't find a thread to it.
I've read various articles about towing restrictions, ie; braked and unbraked with maximum weight limit of 750kg, but does anyone have experience of towing in UK and/or europe?
The Smartcar seems a popular car to tow, is this because of it's max allowable mass?
 

peter marshall

Free Member
Mar 5, 2009
2,466
1,704
Cleveleys,Lancashire
Funster No
5,822
MH
Low Line
Exp
9 Years
Hi
No personal A frame towing, I had a trailer, Smart cars acording to the the book says dont tow, we have one to get the key out it's in neutral BUT sometimes when we get back in it's in first if this happens when your towing bye bye smartie, also Spanish police are pulling up A frame towers and making them unhitch we know 2 couples had this last year for certain we were on the same site, Trailer a bit more lumbersome but legal. Pete :thumb::thumb:
 

Wildman

Free Member
May 30, 2008
0
8,470
Ilfracombe, Devon
Funster No
2,913
MH
Amazon Ambassador
Exp
since 1967
Hi and welcome to the fun. As you say there are many threads relating to "A" frames. The smart car is a favorite because most vans have the capacity to tow it and still be within max mass however it is an automatic and has been known to drop into gear under tow, thereby killing the engine. Be aware of driving licence requirements for towing if you do not have a grandfathered licence. Note also the vehicles under 750kgs are not exempt from the braking regs. Which state if brakes are fitted they MUST work. I have yet to see anyone reverse a car on an "A" frame which is also a requirement. Illegal in Spain and a number of other countries full stop. Much better to tow it on a proper trailer, no problems anywhere then. Having said all that there are a number of people who tow in the UK with no problems at all (well at least untill the EU make it illegal).

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Last edited:
Apr 27, 2008
11,794
13,955
Eastbourne East Sussex
Funster No
2,327
MH
Hymer low profile
Exp
Since 1972
We towed a Smart on a A frame and it dropped into gear in Belgium, trashing the clutch and gearbox. Repairs of several thousand £.

We currently tow a Chevrolet Matiz on an A frame. This is a conventional manual gearbox so no problem, it also has the advantage of 4 doors and 5 seats and only weighs a bit more than the Smart. Its also quite a bit cheaper.:thumb:
 

slobadoberbob

Free Member
Jun 1, 2009
6,151
1,960
Kent, garden of England
Funster No
6,953
MH
Winnebago 23' something
Exp
25 years & counting
The first one of 2012

Well it came early.. how many times have we hashed this one.

I am always willing for a debate.. so here goes... Under the Construction and Use Regulations of the Road Traffic Acts A frame are not legal if they cannot be reversed... (which they cannot ) they are for the purpose of the law a trailer and as the toad i.e the car on the A frame then becomes a trailer due to the weight it has to have fully functioning brakes going forward and in reverse as well.

It is illegal in Spain and even Bryan the administrator of this site who is in Spain at the moment got fines on his way out to winter in Spain as did others with him who had toads on A frames.

Spain is not the only country that stop campers with them .. Germany and Belgium and one of the Eastern Block countries have also done so in the past year.

The only way to be safe is to tow a trailer and have the car off the road. But this is a very very very old chestnut and we have done the debate to death on a half a dozen occassions in the past year to my memory.

Bob

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Geoffers

Free Member
May 13, 2011
506
215
Groby Leicester
Funster No
16,396
MH
Coachbuilt
Exp
5
Thanks to all members for their welcome.
This must be an old chestnut but I can't find a thread to it.
I've read various articles about towing restrictions, ie; braked and unbraked with maximum weight limit of 750kg, but does anyone have experience of towing in UK and/or europe?
The Smartcar seems a popular car to tow, is this because of it's max allowable mass?
Yes an old chesnut indead.But we tow a Fiat Panda ideal because its realy a small estate so water containers and light weight stuff is cariried in that, however it do's weigh 1050 k when fuel etc added.We shall keep 'Toading' untill someone confirms its not legal. The problem I have with a trailer is I have no where to store it plus, on some campsites there is little room on the pitch once the toad awning & van are in position, So the choice is yours.If you wish to go the a frame route look at variou site such a 'towtal' who have cars for sale ready converted, last time I looked started about £1500.::bigsmile:riving2:
 

slobadoberbob

Free Member
Jun 1, 2009
6,151
1,960
Kent, garden of England
Funster No
6,953
MH
Winnebago 23' something
Exp
25 years & counting
yes storage is an issue of a trailer

I can go with the issue of the storage problems of a trailer. We have a Brian James trailer and that makes our rig 45' long... the trailer being 20' .. it can handle 2200 kgs so we haul our Hyundia Matrix which is a biggish car or mini MPV... our RV has the capacity to haul that weight as it is an American RV with meaty tow equipment.

The storage is an issue, and at shows we have been always accommodated, and have managed to have the trailer kept connected. Even in France that is the case where we go to. At home it is a bit of an issue, but we had to weigh up the advantages of a trailer over a toad... the legal issue is number one for me. Being a retired lawyer still with current RTA books (Wilkinsons) I tend to know the issues of the legalities of the trailer v the toad. For me there is no option other than to comply with the law and not take a chance as often others decide to do. I stop at traffic lights when red, so it is no different to me. Those that argue that they will stop when they get prosecuted are being a little silly. Regretfully there is no law against being silly. But there are laws re trailers and a toad makes a car attached in to a trailer.

I could have spent a lot less buying a toad and a car than I did buying a good quality trailer that is man enough to the task. I also have a MASS available to tow the trailer within my driving licence requirements. Plus the vehicle I tow with is built and designed to tow. It is not an added on tow bar.... I have air suspension on the rear to make sure that any nose weight is catered for as well.

But as we have often debated this chestnut and we go round and round in circles, I doubt that those that want to wear the bilkers will continue to do so. I know of a couple of RV owners that have used trailers this year to go to spain rather than risk the fines and other possible actions they can face. So it is a start.

Bob
 

vwalan

Funster
Sep 23, 2008
8,835
5,798
roche cornwall
Funster No
4,148
MH
lynton5th wheel
Exp
since a child
hi, bob .theres no need for brakes when reversing ,and the later trailer brakes have brake shoes that automaticaly come off when reversing . .come on you should be able to get it right.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

slobadoberbob

Free Member
Jun 1, 2009
6,151
1,960
Kent, garden of England
Funster No
6,953
MH
Winnebago 23' something
Exp
25 years & counting
auto reverse brakes Alan

hi, bob .theres no need for brakes when reversing ,and the later trailer brakes have brake shoes that automaticaly come off when reversing . .come on you should be able to get it right.

Yes auto reverse brakes... the cam overrides the brake shoes and lifts them when the trailer goes backwards. Perhaps I did not make myself very clear... no unusual Alan.. but thanks for spotting it.

The nose cone when it comes forward on a caravan or larger trailer makes the rod push the trailer brakes on.. when you reverse the same principle but there s a cam that rides up and over allowing the brakes to disconnect for the reverse... so in a way there are brakes in force. The toad has no games to over ride as the brakes are not applied unless they are by wire or in some cars by electronic.... whole different field.


Bob
 

scotjimland

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 25, 2007
2,086
9,025
Suffolk Coastal District, UK
Funster No
15
MH
Timberland
hi, bob .theres no need for brakes when reversing ,and the later trailer brakes have brake shoes that automaticaly come off when reversing . .come on you should be able to get it right.

Like you Alan, I came to the conclusion that for my purpose it was easier and a lot cheaper to tow a caravan.. than run an RV with a toad..

Motorhomes are better for touring and off site camping but if you really need a toad maybe you have the wrong vehicle..

I've had them all.. RVs . Campers, Caravans.. big un's little un's , all have a purpose and none do all jobs well.. choose wisely!

:hardhat:
 

Jaws

LIFE MEMBER
Sep 26, 2008
23,821
71,977
Thetford Norfolk
Funster No
4,189
MH
C class, Chieftain
Exp
since 2006 ( I think ! )
Get a small motorbike.. end of all your problems ! :thumb: ( sorry.. ::bigsmile: )

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Jim

Ringleader
Jul 19, 2007
36,194
128,631
Sutton on Sea, UK
Funster No
1
MH
Adria Panel Van.
Exp
Since 1988
I see A framed cars being reversed all the time. In fact we had a competition at a meet years ago. One guy reversed his A Framed mini cooper over 50m.

Bob. How far do the construction and use rules say that a trailer must be able to reverse?
 

vwalan

Funster
Sep 23, 2008
8,835
5,798
roche cornwall
Funster No
4,148
MH
lynton5th wheel
Exp
since a child
hi . there is no distance mentioned. i think the problemis really that the sliding hitch that is used on many would put the brakes on during reversing. (trailers have special shoes)mind you could have air or electric operated brakes that would only come on if the brake pedal is presses these are available and do have eu type aproval as a braking system.
i know its possible to reverse an a frame we used to play reversing in our yard at work. but its much more difficult behind a big camper. i personaly think they will have a job making a total ban . its possible to meet all the required standards . i also believe spain is incorrect in its actions . but never mind might not be a eu soon so it could all be differant.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Southampton

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 16, 2011
522
318
Hampshire
Funster No
19,191
MH
C Class
Exp
Since 2009
Towing with an A frame

I use the servo assisted Unibrake system. This basically has an additional servo fitted to the toad and operates the brakes in the same way as if you are driving the car, no need for any sliding hitch system. I can reverse as far as necessary if I could control the direction, I need to get out and practice a bit more. Visit http://www.unibrake.co.uk/ for more information.
 

jonandshell

Free Member
Dec 12, 2010
5,476
8,299
Norfolk
Funster No
14,648
MH
Not got one!
Exp
Since 2006
I understand why people tow a small car behind their motorhome, it's to get about when your motorhome is on site!
I know, instead of going to all the trouble of towing a small car behind your motorhome, why doesn't someone invent a motorhome without an engine which you can tow behind your normal car?
Thus saving lots of money and yet another A-frame thread on these forums!!!!!!!:roflmto:



Yes, I know I borrowed the joke from Ken Bruce on Radio 2!:Blush:
 

vwalan

Funster
Sep 23, 2008
8,835
5,798
roche cornwall
Funster No
4,148
MH
lynton5th wheel
Exp
since a child
they have its called two things .
1. a mini artic .
2. a fifth wheelcamper.
unfortunately many of you have missed the point . hee hee we will convert you in the end .
several of us have made the move and know it makes sense. hee hee. :thumb:

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

jonandshell

Free Member
Dec 12, 2010
5,476
8,299
Norfolk
Funster No
14,648
MH
Not got one!
Exp
Since 2006
they have its called two things .
1. a mini artic .
2. a fifth wheelcamper.
unfortunately many of you have missed the point . hee hee we will convert you in the end .
several of us have made the move and know it makes sense. hee hee. :thumb:

Never!!!!!

I don't care that the campsite is twenty miles down a steep hill from town, there's no public transport, we've run out of wine and Fray Bentos pies and both the bikes have flat tyres, you'll never see a toad on our MH!:roflmto:

5ers are a great idea though.................
 

vwalan

Funster
Sep 23, 2008
8,835
5,798
roche cornwall
Funster No
4,148
MH
lynton5th wheel
Exp
since a child
bet you wish you had one . get fraybentos by the box . carry about 250ltr of wine never mind the beer and brandy. get one like mine 7seater you can act as a taxi for others get invited for meals then as you wouldnt want money . makes your hands dirty.
the five alive club is growing healthily.
nice big fuel tanks to help not paying high uk prices when you get home.
cause could make the back seat into a sleeper cab so good for that weekend small camper.
 

johnp10

Free Member
Oct 12, 2009
7,774
15,181
North Lincolnshire
Funster No
8,872
MH
C Class
Exp
8 years ish
they have its called two things .
1. a mini artic .
2. a fifth wheelcamper.
unfortunately many of you have missed the point . hee hee we will convert you in the end .
several of us have made the move and know it makes sense. hee hee. :thumb:

What point, Alan?
Do you mean get a caravan like yours?
If folk want a caravan, they would have one.
Most of these so called "5ers" and "mini artics" dont fit the ill to be a true artic.
Most are legally drawbar combinations, not true articulated vehicles due to the load weight distribution. (That's the LOAD, not the trailer weight).
Call them what you will, they are car and caravan combinations, not motorhomes. You are caravanners.
Not that there's anything wrong with caravanners, just for the sake of getting it right.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Jim

Ringleader
Jul 19, 2007
36,194
128,631
Sutton on Sea, UK
Funster No
1
MH
Adria Panel Van.
Exp
Since 1988
Whats in a name? I don't make such a clear cut distinction between caravans, 5ers or Motorhomes, it's academic anyway. According to the Oxford English, Motorhome is a US term, the British term is Motorcaravan. IMO if you can live in it and a motor pushes or pulls it, it's a form of "Motorhome"


What point, Alan?
Do you mean get a caravan like yours?
If folk want a caravan, they would have one.
Most of these so called "5ers" and "mini artics" dont fit the ill to be a true artic.
Most are legally drawbar combinations, not true articulated vehicles due to the load weight distribution. (That's the LOAD, not the trailer weight).
Call them what you will, they are car and caravan combinations, not motorhomes. You are caravanners.
Not that there's anything wrong with caravanners, just for the sake of getting it right.
 

vwalan

Funster
Sep 23, 2008
8,835
5,798
roche cornwall
Funster No
4,148
MH
lynton5th wheel
Exp
since a child
hi john . mine is a mini artic it puts 50%of its load onto the towing unit.
jealousy will get you in the end.
we know you would like one. i,m well aware of what defines an artic thats why i say both. but thank you for letting us know .
and i can add mine is not a caravan as such .it is a living van . there is a differance . it as a large boot /garage area and is a living van . caravans arent allowed such a load area and be used for tools etc ,m,bikes . have fun .
google fifth wheel campers you know it makes sense.
oh the point is no need for a toad . one insurance ,one mot (if required ),one road tax . some can be driven on a car licence and have greater weight capacities than the normal 8,250kg weight .
best of all worlds .
 

pappajohn

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 26, 2007
43,207
48,815
Dark side of the moon
Funster No
172
Exp
Since 2005
Well it came early.. how many times have we hashed this one.

I am always willing for a debate.. so here goes... Under the Construction and Use Regulations of the Road Traffic Acts A frame are not legal if they cannot be reversed... (which they cannot ) they are for the purpose of the law a trailer and as the toad i.e the car on the A frame then becomes a trailer due to the weight it has to have fully functioning brakes going forward and in reverse as well.

It is illegal in Spain and even Bryan the administrator of this site who is in Spain at the moment got fines on his way out to winter in Spain as did others with him who had toads on A frames.

Spain is not the only country that stop campers with them .. Germany and Belgium and one of the Eastern Block countries have also done so in the past year.

The only way to be safe is to tow a trailer and have the car off the road. But this is a very very very old chestnut and we have done the debate to death on a half a dozen occassions in the past year to my memory.

Bob
Sorry Bob, got to correct you on the point highlighted.

a trailer with brakes, regardless of weight, must have operational brakes. Yes :thumb:
it must also have a means of, independent of human intervention, releasing the brakes in reverse....IE: overun brakes have an auto-disengage system where the brake shoes automatically move away from the brake drum when going backwards




Ooops....sorry Bob, just read post #10

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

johnp10

Free Member
Oct 12, 2009
7,774
15,181
North Lincolnshire
Funster No
8,872
MH
C Class
Exp
8 years ish
Going over old ground with this one, Alan, with all the inaccurate figures etc.
What determines an artic vehicle rather than a drawbar combination is load distribution, not trailer weight imposed as indicated in previous threads.
I doubt any living van, caravan , 5er, whatever can have design documentation stating that when the semi trailer is uniformly loaded, at least 20% (not 50) of the weight of the load (not the van, just the load) is imposed upon the towing vehicle.
Anything designed to live in cannot possibly be uniformly loaded. surely?

Anyway, this is about toads, eh?
Lets leave the toad fans to it.
 

vwalan

Funster
Sep 23, 2008
8,835
5,798
roche cornwall
Funster No
4,148
MH
lynton5th wheel
Exp
since a child
john ,mine started life as a mini artic . i converted it to a living van . living vans can be articulated . mine conforms . and is acceptable with a v112g to dvla and vosa.
as i have said before i am well aware of the regs .
but anyway ,lets keep it fun.
much easier to reverse than m,home and a toad.
catch up with you one day and we shall have a good discusion about it.

actually i used to aframe just about every week so i am into them .and i have a good old harvey frost towboy here . still works for its keep.
have a good one,
 

aba

Free Member
Oct 27, 2009
2,775
1,112
yorkshire
Funster No
9,066
MH
coachbuilt
Exp
dec 2009
ok some love em some hate em but each has its advantages.
a car-caravan combination is good for stopping for a week here and there and using the car for exploring the areas

5th wheel and big pickup same as above although you may be restricted as to where you can go due to the size of it

motorhome and small toad again has the advantages of a car-caravan combination however the toad can be very efficient or even electric powered and most of the time is the daily run around/shopping car.

you may get into the arguments of 2 lots of insurance etc.
but being realistic you are going to insure your £25000 caravan so its academic.
if you only have £500 in your caravan then maybe you may not bother insuring it but what happens if it detaches from your insured car as they do sometimes and wipes out a family or a coach full of people oh sorry its not insured.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

vwalan

Funster
Sep 23, 2008
8,835
5,798
roche cornwall
Funster No
4,148
MH
lynton5th wheel
Exp
since a child
hi, insurance can be got very often as cheap sometimes cheaper than an equivalent m,home. its two policies combined covering the eventualities mentioned. you may be suprised at the prices
as to getting places the nature of the fifth wheel makes it far more manouverable than an equivelant rigid vehicle and again more manouverable than a m,home and toad. i would say there is less restrictions than an eqivelant size m, home.
i take it as read that i just like teasing you all with the idea of a 5er or artic. some will agree some wont. i also stick up for aframe use . but i see the 5er a much better option.
i have over the years driven just about all the types of vehicles . my aframe is a very early intertrade item. nothing like what you see around much today. chains to underneath and as big bumper pads. think its a 77-78 . very well used they were used by the rac and just about all their transits had them in.aframes are a great recovery tool and a necesatity in cornwall where running around with trailers in the summer is almost too hard to do. mind the tow boy is also very conveniant for recovery . speed restrictions apply when on recovery or using the dollie (aframe is unbraked).
 
Apr 27, 2008
11,794
13,955
Eastbourne East Sussex
Funster No
2,327
MH
Hymer low profile
Exp
Since 1972
I tow a car on an A frame but importantly, not all the time. I only take the toad if I know I will need it, which really is just in the UK. This is because UK sites/cl's are usually in the middle of nowhere and parking a largish motorhome in most UK towns/villages is a real problem. I have never needed a toad in France as it's easy to pitch near towns you want to visit and parking is easy.
Like others I could not store a trailer, but if most of my touring was in the UK I would go for a caravan rather than a motorhome, we're not geared up for motorhomes here. In fact if I had room for a trailer I would use the space for a caravan as I think it would be more useful, and I have a suitable 4x4 to tow one. Motor home AND caravan would be the best of both worlds and I suppose if we needed extra accomadation we could tow the caravan behind the motorhome (but where could we put the toad :Doh:)
 

aba

Free Member
Oct 27, 2009
2,775
1,112
yorkshire
Funster No
9,066
MH
coachbuilt
Exp
dec 2009
I tow a car on an A frame but importantly, not all the time. I only take the toad if I know I will need it, which really is just in the UK. This is because UK sites/cl's are usually in the middle of nowhere and parking a largish motorhome in most UK towns/villages is a real problem. I have never needed a toad in France as it's easy to pitch near towns you want to visit and parking is easy.
Like others I could not store a trailer, but if most of my touring was in the UK I would go for a caravan rather than a motorhome, we're not geared up for motorhomes here. In fact if I had room for a trailer I would use the space for a caravan as I think it would be more useful, and I have a suitable 4x4 to tow one. Motor home AND caravan would be the best of both worlds and I suppose if we needed extra accomadation we could tow the caravan behind the motorhome ([HI]but where could we put the toad[/HI] :Doh:)

simple put the toad inside the caravan:ROFLMAO:

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top