So how do you get started on these cold frosty mornings. (1 Viewer)

[Gonewiththewind]

Over the past 3 to 4 weeks my van is getting harder to start. This morning have resorted to the spray can. Not sure if this is good, bad or indifferent. I was told many moons ago, that it damaged your engine.
Any one want to clarify or offer advice.

(beats the political stuff)

Don

 

[Dodgey]

Petrol or diesel?

 

[Gonewiththewind]

Diessl !

Don

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[Snowbird]

Becouse I use 100% bio diesel in my vehicles I have an inline fuel heater which warms up the fuel by the use of 2 glowplugs which thermostaticaly switch off when the engine is at working tempreture.When the glowplugs switch off the fuel is warmed by the heater coolant.I had no problems with starting even when temps went down to minus 15 last year.Engines that use biofuel are not as easy to start as fossil diesel engines,but I have had no problems as yet.Regarding your difficult starting in cold wheather,have you checked that your glowplugs are working correctly.

 

[Gonewiththewind]

At the moment I use 50/50 Diesel and Bio. I have changed the glow plugs, but how do you check that they are functioning correctly.

I had looked at one of these heater filters, but pension dosnt go that far.

Don

 

[Dodgey]

Glow plugs would be my guess on diesel, if the motors cranking happily then there's you most likely problem.

As to starting fluid, don't know but I'd be cautious on a diesel, but other may and probably do know better:thumb:

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[Snowbird]

Any competant mechanic will test the glowplugs for you.
The fuel heaters I use came from Germany,but are now available on ebay UK for about £85 for the complete system.If you use these you can run 100% bio and it wont take long to get your money back.

 

[Douglas]

Over the past 3 to 4 weeks my van is getting harder to start. This morning have resorted to the spray can. Not sure if this is good, bad or indifferent. I was told many moons ago, that it damaged your engine.
Any one want to clarify or offer advice.

(beats the political stuff)

Don

Having to use ether to get a diesel going, assuming that glow plugs and the fuel delivery is OK can be a indication that the engine is loosing compression, but as said before all these things can be tested.

As to doing damage, yes it does do damage, it lifts the temperature of the exhaust higher that normal and can burn the valve seats, but if it is loss of compression then the engine is already in need of work and the damage that the ether is doing is not important.

However if the compression is good the damage is more serious as it will course loss of compression due to the burning of the valve seats. get it checked as soon as possible and you may save yourself a head overhaul.

Doug...

 

[wivvy's dad]

Should we not know what sort of mileage the engine has done?

My Transit with 130k miles can be a bit sluggish, but I normally give it 2 turns of the key = twice the glowpluggery, then start.

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[Peter JohnsCross MH]

It has been said that engines get addicted to the use of Easy Start, an ether based aerosol, how true this I do not know.

I cannot see how the use of it would burn out valve seats as it is only enough to get a few ignition sequences, enough to kick start.

Peter

 

[Larrynwin]

My well used 1966 International B414 tractor given 40 secs on glowplugs always starts ok. When battery was low I tried easystart , it worked but knocked like mad when first started. I think best to avoid it.

 

[Snowbird]

As I have said in previous posts regarding engines becoming addicted to easystart.They are made from metal,therefore cannot become addicted.
People think they become addicted becouse once you start to use it you have to keep using it.The problem is that if you have to use easystart there is an underlying problem with your motor,sort that out and you wont nead the easystart.

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[goffer]

sound like sluggish battery to me, glow plugs have been replaced so should be ok normally last for several years.

 

[Terry]

Has anyone ever taken the cylinder head off a engine that has had a lot of easy start in it ? I have :thumb: it looked like it had been hit with a axe Knocked hell out of it - best to avoid it if possible :thumb:Make sure the battery is fully charged - a good earth and that the glow plugs are working :thumb:
terry

 

[Douglas]

It has been said that engines get addicted to the use of Easy Start, an ether based aerosol, how true this I do not know.

I cannot see how the use of it would burn out valve seats as it is only enough to get a few ignition sequences, enough to kick start.

Peter

Believe me Peter its true, for my sins I served my time on Diesel engines and lost count of the number of engines that I have overhauled, I have seen valves that have pieces missing the shape of a slice of cake from engines that had a to be started every morning on ether.

Doug...

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[dazzer]

Might not be the glowplugs but the controller that isnt letting them stay on for long enough. A always give the van 2 or 3 glow plug cycles before starting on a really cold day, seems to work every time for me :thumb:

 

[MitchandJenny]

Poor cold starting gonewithewind

If when you turn on the ignition, the glow plug lamp stays on for a reasonable time, then it is an easy job to test your glow plugs. Using a long socket of correct size ( 10 or 11 mm I think ) take out the glow plugs one at a time, get a good battery and put a pretty substantial piece of wire from the Pos terminal to the threaded end that the connector normaly goes to and put the side of the plug body onto the neg terminal ( dont use the threaded part of the body that screws into the engine, you may burn it ). A good plug will glow red. No glow , its US. Only do this if you are a Bit handy at DIY. Good luck. Mitch

 

[rainbow chasers]

Glow plugs will need a little longer to go out. Don't always trust the dash light!

On some vehicles, if you listen carefully, you will hear a 'click' as the solenoid relay knocks off. This is usually, quite a few seconds AFTER the dash light goes out. Listen for that.

If not, use the old 'ten second rule' - sometimes it may even need a little longer, or to switch off the ignition and start the process again.

During snow/icy periods, buy quality fuels. Cheaper ones do not have as much, if any additive and diesel does freeze. Allow for this thickening on start up, as that fuel in you lines will be colder than in the tank.

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[Gonewiththewind]

Glow plugs will need a little longer to go out. Don't always trust the dash light!

On some vehicles, if you listen carefully, you will hear a 'click' as the solenoid relay knocks off. This is usually, quite a few seconds AFTER the dash light goes out. Listen for that.

If not, use the old 'ten second rule' - sometimes it may even need a little longer, or to switch off the ignition and start the process again.

During snow/icy periods, buy quality fuels. Cheaper ones do not have as much, if any additive and diesel does freeze. Allow for this thickening on start up, as that fuel in you lines will be colder than in the tank.

Thats another queation answered without me asking. My dash light goes out after about 5 / 6 seconds owever the click doesnt occur for another 10 seconds, and I did wonder which should I rely on. thanks to the above, I now know.

Don

 

[Gonewiththewind]

If when you turn on the ignition, the glow plug lamp stays on for a reasonable time, then it is an easy job to test your glow plugs. Using a long socket of correct size ( 10 or 11 mm I think ) take out the glow plugs one at a time, get a good battery and put a pretty substantial piece of wire from the Pos terminal to the threaded end that the connector normaly goes to and put the side of the plug body onto the neg terminal ( dont use the threaded part of the body that screws into the engine, you may burn it ). A good plug will glow red. No glow , its US. Only do this if you are a Bit handy at DIY. Good luck. Mitch

Thanks Mitch, I should have tried that when I fit the new ones 2 week ago. however we assume that new gear is OK and working. But will have to brave the cold and remove one and try that method.
I am begining to doubt the battery, but that will have to wait as pension christmas and new batteries just dont go together.
Much appreciate all comments and advice.

Thanks
Don

 

[johng]

agree with Mitch.. I test my GP's out of the engine.. even new ones can be broken

Last time, I put all 4 on an extruded aluminium bar, wired the feed wire and the metal bar to battery and had them all glowing nicely - the other way is a positive wire to the terminal of the GP, and earth the body of GP on the neg of the battery.. will work just as well.. one at a time...

I am not sure it's been mentioned, but cycle them 2 or 3 times on really cold mornings, should help..

John

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[MitchandJenny]

Poor cold starting gonewithewind

Don. you shouldnt doubt the battery if it is spinning it over ok. PS please dont use easy start, it can be terminal at worst and do long term damage. Good luck mate you sure picked the right weather.
Mitch

 

[motor roamin]

One of my guys got a can of easy start out of his boot.......after I explained if it went near my trucks his P45 will be in his hand he understood my fealings on using it.

As a motor engineer tech eng......I would ban easy start......causes way too much damage......if an engine doesn't start then there is a fault.....it could be that using part bio fuel your diesel is waxing when cold so needs warming before injection......I use only BP all additives included never have astarting problem without it being another fault.

Hope this helps Rick.

 

[pappajohn]

glow plugs failing.

while i agree with doug in principle, the actual time scale while starting on ether will not allow the valves to overheat to the point of damage.

i would imagine more valve damage will occur running a petrol engine on LPG than starting a diesel on ether.

the engine will become dependant on the stuff though and will become harder to start without it....or it will appear so.

glow plugs are probably around £10 to £15 each so worth replacing them anyway.

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[Gonewiththewind]

glow plugs failing.

while i agree with doug in principle, the actual time scale while starting on ether will not allow the valves to overheat to the point of damage.

i would imagine more valve damage will occur running a petrol engine on LPG than starting a diesel on ether.

the engine will become dependant on the stuff though and will become harder to start without it....or it will appear so.

glow plugs are probably around £10 to £15 each so worth replacing them anyway.

Changed them about 2 weeks ago John. My next job was the fuel filter, but its such a bugger to get into (1998 Boxer) and my feet and hands dont function too well in this cold weather.

Don

 

[Landy lover]

In a previous life many decades ago I trained as a diesel fitter on heavy goods and plant
So for what its worth combining training back in the early 60's then with more modern additions this following would be my recommended check list for a poor starting diesel vehicle.
First to check the viability of the glow plugs usually the main problem - as said the glow plugs can be checked easily by any competent mechanic in situe and should not cost and arm and a leg with the right equipment if it takes generally no more than 10 mins if it does then he has gone for a cuppa - I have a tester which takes 10 to 20 seconds per glow plug and tests its resistance at cold and then through the heat range by resistance for the set period of time 10 or 20 seconds -
Second is to test the timer and relay that operated the plugs for current flow - easily checked by use of a multi meter - bear in mind different vehicles have different electrical layouts - some use a combined timer and relay others use a separate timer to the relay so you may hear a click which is the timer going off but if it has a separate relay which is not working then no current is flowing to the glow plugs.
A multimeter connected to a glow plug and then to earth for continuity will prove this
Assuming 1 and 2 are OK then
Three - next move is the battery - a full drop test will prove if OK if not then a new battery is really the only option - always check the spec of the battery fitted ie amp hours and the cranking amps against vehicle manufacturers original specification - there are many batteries that will fit most vehicle and the pocket always dictates going for the cheapest option - you should always go for the best or if available better so consult the handbook and check carefully and don't accept what Kwikfit fitter etc. is saying he is paid to sell the batteries they have in stock - not the best for you or the vehicle
Four - assuming the battery is checking out OK then look at the starter - is it spinning the engine freely - or is it struggling - a tired starter will draw far more amps from the battery than it should and will ultimately fail like wise a tired battery can cause a starter to fail prematurely. If the starter is struggling then check battery connections and the connection to the starter are they all clean and tighted if loose or if corroded then clean and tighten and try again - if the starter is still sluggish then check the earth connection from the engine , gearbox etc - all too often there is corrosion in these causing poor earth
and giving the impression of a bad starter / battery - easiest way to check this is to get a good set of
jump leads and connect a good point on the engine ( lifting eye / head bolt or similar ) directly to the earth lead on the battery then try spinning the starter - if the starter spins more freely you need to clean and replace or add additional earth leads. This is a particular problem on older vehicles.
If all this checks out then you move on to the fuel side -
Five - is there plenty of fuel in the tank . If there is then
Six - is the fuel draining back into the tank overnight due to a faulty lift pump - most older vehicle have a lift pump on the side of the engine -easily checked by either operating the pump manual lever situated underneath the pump or by cracking one of the joints on the filter and turning the engine to see if fuel flows OK if it is not then the first half a dozen turns of the engine is wasted on pumping fuel from the tank before the engine has a chance to fire - If if is a modern engine and has an in tank pump you will get a fair idea by turning the igintion on and listening carefully to the sound and tone of the pump - if it runs for a while and is noisy then that needs a bit of specialist advise
Beyond this and the obvious rectification andfuel filter changing - you will have done the best you can and are stepping into the realms of specialist tools to check fuel feed pressures - injector pumps - injectors - timing etc etc. and I suggest you leave well alone and get specialist help
Hopefully the wanderings of an ex mechanic may point you in the right direction

Ref Easystart I was always taught last resort for a knackered engine as it strips the carbon away from the piston/rings stopping good compression. My tutors opinion of it could not be posted on a delicate site like this
His opinion of engines getting addicted to it was the user that used to get addicted to it to save a couple of days hard work doing a 'proper' job on the engine

 

[Gonewiththewind]

Hi Landy Lover, I Hope you dont mind, but I have saved and printed off as a check list. As soon as I can I will get out there and work through the list.

Thanks again one and all.
Trully appreciated.

Don

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[MitchandJenny]

Poor cold starting gonewithewind

Good luck Don. Awaiting the results of your testing with interest. (There but for the grace of God etc)
Mitch.

 

[Jaws]

Remember those bloody awful ford York engines ?

When I was a fork truck fitter the works van I was given was a Ford Transit pick up with a Yok in it

We built that engine from the floor up three times.. Every time it would start fine for a few weeks and then start playing up again
In the end I was allowed to turn up for work 45 minutes late every day cos the Milkman came round in his electric float and I would cop a jump from the traction batteries, feeding the pick up with a good solid 18v+ AND a dose of ether usually worked !!

 

[Landy lover]

Remember those bloody awful ford York engines ?

Terrible things then some bean counter at Land Rover decided to fit them to some Range Rovers as an option - obviously did not discuss with any mechanics first

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