Definition of "camping"? (1 Viewer)

[DBSilverfox]

I was up at Monsal Head in Derbyshire today, enjoying the view. In the car park, behind the hotel and cafe, it advertises overnight parking at 30p from 10pm to 8am...

Hmm, thinks I, what a great place to stop over. But then at the entrance it also says "no camping".

My understanding from the Aires in France is that it only becomes camping if you start putting tables, chairs, awnings out, to extend your motorhome footprint. Is it he same in the UK?

would you legally be ok to overnight in a motorhome at Monsal Head would you think?

David

 

[pappajohn]

would you legally be ok to overnight in a motorhome at Monsal Head would you think?

short answer.....No.

parking and camping are two different animals.

where it states 'no camping' it really means 'no sleeping'

 

[DBSilverfox]

short and sweet

so are you saying parking becomes camping when you sleep in the vehicle?

And therefore it would also be illegal to roll out of the pub a little worse for wear, decide not to drive home, and sleep on the back seat of your car in the same car park, paying your 30p?

David

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[pappajohn]

short and sweet

so are you saying parking becomes camping when you sleep in the vehicle?

And therefore it would also be illegal to roll out of the pub a little worse for wear, decide not to drive home, and sleep on the back seat of your car in the same car park, paying your 30p?

David

yep!!!

and you'd be breaking the law by being in charge of a vehicle while pi$$ed as the car park is a public place, even thought its private the public use it.


unless you leave your keys with the landlord of the pub then you'd only get a fine for sleeping.

 

[buttons]

I was up at Monsal Head in Derbyshire today, enjoying the view. In the car park, behind the hotel and cafe, it advertises overnight parking at 30p from 10pm to 8am...
Hmm, thinks I, what a great place to stop over. But then at the entrance it also says "no camping".My understanding from the Aires in France is that it only becomes camping if you start putting tables, chairs, awnings out, to extend your motorhome footprint. Is it he same in the UK?
would you legally be ok to overnight in a motorhome at Monsal Head would you think?David

You can park there if you like Dave, problem is the next time you want to sit and enjoy the view from your motor home there will be a sign that we can all understand saying all vehicles with cooking facilities are not allowed to use this car park. Or maybe a height restriction. Camping is camping, parking is parking simples!

 

[bernardfeay]

take a chance

If you see signs saying that you will be clamped then it's best to move on. If not keep a low profile and be ready with a good excuse.

My oil warning light came on and it was best to wait till morning and get my bike off the back to look for some. The engine was overheating. think of the best you can come up with and get the wife to tell the same story - that's the tricky bit.

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[Wildman]

the distinction between camping and parking in Europe is very clear, I.E. no tables chairs awnings or owt else outside the van and you are parking, put anything out and you are camping. why should we expect the UK to be different???????

 

[400ixl]

We shouldn't expect it to be different, but that little piece of water has made many of our rules different to the continent.

I agree that the difference is perceived as sleeping. At least it was when I worked for the Highways Department of our County Council many moons ago.

Having grown up on the continent there are lots of oddities between our rules and theirs.

 

[Douglas]

If we all clubbed together and one of use volunteered to test it with no cost to the volunteer we could force the authorities to define camping, any offers?

Doug...

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[GJH]

Extract from information given to me by Derbyshire Dales Council:

Provision or Ban on Overnight Parking. Whilst overnight parking is allowed on most of our car parks, camping is not. Vehicles may be left overnight, but only if unattended. Sleeping within the vehicle is prohibited.
The reason that overnight parking is allowed by the Council is so that the many guest houses and public houses providing overnight accommodation, but which are unable to provide parking for their clientele, may direct vehicle owners to alternative nearby facilities. Similarly, many homes within the Dales do not have off road parking (although we do provide each household with a free parking pass which allows for parking after 4pm and up to 11am on our car parks).
The reason why overnight camping is prohibited, on the other hand, is that there are numerous licensed camping and caravan sites throughout the Derbyshire Dales and we do not wish to condone the use of our public car parks by travellers seeking alternative low cost accommodation, be that overnight or longer term.

Full details Here.

As to whether we should or should not expect to be different from mainland Europe, whether we like it or not the UK is different from mainland Europe in a number of aspects. When one looks at the media one finds that many of those differences are applauded by large proportions of the UK population.

Also, as shown by Link Removed, there are plenty of people who believe that the definition of "camping" should not be changed.

If motorhome owners want the definition of "camping" to be the same as in mainland Europe (e.g. as Roger mentions) then the way to do it is by positive, constructive lobbying to overcome what, to many, are totally legitimate objections. Simply ignoring signs and regulations because we don't like them will be counter productive.

Graham

 

[scotjimland]

If I saw this sign there would be no doubt in my mind what it meant ..

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Monsal+Head,+United+Kingdom&sll=52.024664,1.413001&sspn=0.064855,0.159817&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Monsal+Dale,+Buxton,+Derbyshire,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.240153,-1.723566&spn=0.015769,0.039954&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.240258,-1.723655&panoid=6iUihtgNoN2mcV_teZ8MOg&cbp=12,251.34,,1,6.29

 

[buttons]

the distinction between camping and parking in Europe is very clear, I.E. no tables chairs awnings or owt else outside the van and you are parking, put anything out and you are camping. why should we expect the UK to be different???????

Does this also apply to a caravan being hitched to a tow car, in essence they are the same beastriving2a motor home) so the same should apply. Shouldn’t it?
They have the same classification for parking in UK why not France?:yeah:

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[GJH]

Does this also apply to a caravan being hitched to a tow car, in essence they are the same beastriving2a motor home) so the same should apply. Shouldn’t it?
They have the same classification for parking in UK why not France?:yeah:

The latter question is one for the French authorities, rather than here, isn't it?

As regards parking of car/caravan combinations generally, they are not always the same as a single vehicle. Trailers, including (and sometimes specifically) caravans, are not allowed at all in many car parks in the UK.

Graham

 

[John & Joan]

If we all clubbed together and one of use volunteered to test it with no cost to the volunteer we could force the authorities to define camping, any offers?

Doug...

No Doug. However if we all clubbed together and asked for representation with DEFRA in the same way that the Big Clubs and ACCEO have then we could have a voice in how decisions are reached.

Politics need to be used to change laws and perceptions, not disobedience.

 

[John & Joan]

We shouldn't expect it to be different, but that little piece of water has made many of our rules different to the continent.

I agree that the difference is perceived as sleeping. At least it was when I worked for the Highways Department of our County Council many moons ago.

Having grown up on the continent there are lots of oddities between our rules and theirs.

Does that mean that all those lorry drivers taking their compulory breaks in the cab of their vehicle are Camping. I keep bringing this up and I am told it is different because they have Tacos and have to stop.

If sleeping in the vehicle is camping then they must also be camping and not parking as they say they are.

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[Wildman]

Does that mean that all those lorry drivers taking their compulory breaks in the cab of their vehicle are Camping. I keep bringing this up and I am told it is different because they have Tacos and have to stop.

If sleeping in the vehicle is camping then they must also be camping and not parking as they say they are.

at last a voice of reason.

 

[hilldweller]

If I saw this sign there would be no doubt in my mind what it meant ..

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...=6iUihtgNoN2mcV_teZ8MOg&cbp=12,251.34,,1,6.29

And a quarter of a mile away.....

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...53.238632,-1.722405&spn=0.001236,0.00346&z=19

 

[hilldweller]

Politics need to be used to change laws and perceptions, not disobedience.

Worked for the Peak District - where Monsal Dale is.

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[GJH]

Does that mean that all those lorry drivers taking their compulory breaks in the cab of their vehicle are Camping. I keep bringing this up and I am told it is different because they have Tacos and have to stop.

If sleeping in the vehicle is camping then they must also be camping and not parking as they say they are.

As the results of my investigations Here show, restrictions are normally put in place by local authorities. In making those restrictions the authorities take account of the fact that national legislation means HGV drivers have less choice than the rest of us as to when and where to stop.

Of course, one could campaign for all motorhomes to be fitted with tachos and their drivers to be subject to the same rules as HGV drivers. Then there would be a case for allowing the same freedom of overnight stops

Graham

 

[Douglas]

No Doug. However if we all clubbed together and asked for representation with DEFRA in the same way that the Big Clubs and ACCEO have then we could have a voice in how decisions are reached.

Politics need to be used to change laws and perceptions, not disobedience.

Well John, you have faith that such an action would work, I on the other had have absolutly no faith at all.

Doug...

 

[Wildman]

A tacho does not make people tired, motorhomers get tired also, vast numbers of them are retirees and need even more sleep. Why should a lorry driver have more right to sleep in a layby than myself. I really don't see the distinction.

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[GJH]

A tacho does not make people tired, motorhomers get tired also, vast numbers of them are retirees and need even more sleep. Why should a lorry driver have more right to sleep in a layby than myself. I really don't see the distinction.

A good point Roger. When I suggested above about campaigning for all motorhomes to be fitted with tachos and their drivers to be subject to the same rules as HGV drivers I was being a bit flippant - perhaps I should not be

However, when one looks at the question, HGV drivers have schedules to keep to which are not within their control and that led, in the past, to some people driving when they shouldn't because they were pressured into it by the companies they worked for. The introduction of the compulsory breaks is a protection for the drivers and the general public.

Motorhome drivers, of whatever age, do not have those pressures (unless they are self imposed) and should be expected to plan their journeys such that they can take breaks when they expect to need to.

That is where the distinction lies.

Graham

 

[Wildman]

sorry Graham, but you seem to have missd the point I was trying to make, having a timesheet to keep to and a living to earn etc does not make a lorry driver a different human being to me. If sleeping is fine for one then it is for the other. We all need sleep, can all drive for long hours. If it is safe and not a problem for lorry drivers then my white lorry makes me a lorry driver also.

 

[DBSilverfox]

Thanks all for the great replies. Seems it stirred up a healthy debate.

The consensus seems to be that continental and UK definitions of camping versus parking are very different, to our disadvantage. Like it or not, it is the law, and at least there seems to be a camp site just down the road.

as for truck drivers, I do agree it is a different arena altogether - I would let them park and sleep anywhere rather than go back to the old days of having to drive stupid hours non-stop and falling asleep on the motorway. Though I do recall an Irish trucker I used to work with that put his tacho's in back to front and was prepared to pay the fines when caught because of the extra profit he could make on a long drive down to Milan.

I am glad I asked the question though :thumb:

David

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[Jim]

On another thread

Because we as a population exept it like sheep and do nothing about it! Apathy rules!!

Doug...

on this thread

Well John, you have faith that such an action would work, I on the other had have absolutly no faith at all.

Doug...

So what should we do, nothing or something

 

[GJH]

I know the point you're making Roger, just think it doesn't stand up other than in isolation. The fact is that those of us not subject to the tacho (etc) legislation have much more freedom to decide when we stop.

A HGV driver is required by law to stop at given intervals whether he feels the need to or not.
A HGV driver is told by the company he works for where he has to go and the time he has to complete the journey.

The rest of us do not have those requirements imposed upon us.

As David says, like it or not, it is the law, and at least there seems to be a camp site just down the road.

Graham

 

[Douglas]

On another thread


on this thread



So what should we do, nothing or something

You take part of a sentence and leave out the part that gives meaning to the part you quote Your question does not deserve an answer.

Doug...

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[John & Joan]

So what should we do, nothing or something

I think we need to do something.

As the exemption certificate holder of a club with exactly the same exemptions as the big two. I had many clashes with officials in Natural England, when a query was met with the stock reply " it has been agreed with the big two clubs and ACCEO".

The big two have their own agenda and commercial interest in maintaining their own sites and CL/CS networks. Their main interest in in tuggers.

ACCEO represent 200 of the 400+ exempted clubs. Their main interest is again tuggers. They concentrate on rallies and holiday meets. ACCEO officers have stated to me that they don't consider small clubs should be able to certificate 5 van site (like FUN). They went so far as to try to block our 5 van exemption with DEFRA. I don't feel they represent me in any negotiations or consultations.

The rest of the exempted clubs (about 200) have no representation at all. The non club motorhome user is in the same boat.

We need a body to represent Motor Caravanners. I know we have the Motor Caravanners' Club but in my year of membership I have found that they are only interested in Holiday meets and 5 day rallies. They do not seem to have any effective lobbying going on.

I appreciate that MCC are cooperating with Practical Motorhome to establish Nightstops by certificating sites promoted by the magazine.

The MCC group in Northern Ireland did effectively campaign for Aires and have had two fully functioning Aires established in 2007 in Northern Ireland. Since then things seem to have stagnated and we hear nothing from MCC on the many issues raised on this and other forums.

We need a body to promote and lobby for Motor Caravan users. That way we could sort out the issues associated with Aires, Parking and Full timing. This body should have a place in the negotiations taking place with DEFRA, The Big two and ACCEO.

We need to be knocking on DEFRAs door and demanding to be heard.

John

 

[buttons]

car/caravan combinations generally, are not allowed in many car parks in the UK.Graham

Are you suggesting Graham that the rest do welcome caravans? To this I must agree as I can’t recall seeing specific signage no caravans without camping or motorhomes.:thumb:

 

[GJH]

Are you suggesting Graham that the rest do welcome caravans? To this I must agree as I can’t recall seeing specific signage no caravans without camping or motorhomes.:thumb:

Sorry, I don't really know what you are getting at. I have never seen any no camping/cooking/sleeping etc regulations which are specific to any particular vehicle type. There are, though, plenty of councils which do not allow trailers in their car parks at all.

Graham

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