Council Tax and Full Timers (1 Viewer)

[scotjimland]

Caravan Times:

Caravan owners at Throney Bay Park in Canvey Island are to be made to pay council tax after an investigation revealed that they were living there all year round.

A total of 292 homes on the site will now be subject to the levy, with the remainder of more than 800 caravans still falling under the park's business rates, according to the Echo.

The newspaper launched a campaign to have the Valuation Office Agency conduct a review of the site to establish whether some residents were avoiding their responsibilities.

Castle Point councillor for economic regeneration Norman Smith told the Echo that it was "only right" that permanent residents should be asked to contribute.

"They are taking from the borough as much as everyone else in terms of services, so why should they not contribute?" he asked.

The ruling means the owners of the 292 caravans in question will have to pay £1,046 per year after their homes were classed as band-A for council tax.

While we were on a CL we were sent a council tax bill .. addressed to
The Occupier,
The Motrohome,
CL Address ..

When we went to see about it we advised that if we had no other address where we paid rates we were liable for rates where we lived whether it was a motorhome or not, it came under the same rules as a caravan, static or not ..

We contested this and told them we were moving soon to a rented house. In the end they canceled the bill, but it did cause a lot of stress for both us and the cl owners.

Full timers .. be aware that you may get 'shopped' if you stay more than 28 days, keep moving and keep a low profile.

 

[PenelopePitstop]

Surely if you're paying site fees the site owner should have taken his council / business tax into consideration when setting site fees? Therefore you pay your part of the tax in your fees? Is that too simple???

 

[scotjimland]

Surely if you're paying site fees the site owner should have taken his council / business tax into consideration when setting site fees? Therefore you pay your part of the tax in your fees? Is that too simple???

I can only tell what we were told.. if we had no home address where we paid rates we were liable to pay them where we 'lived'

Graham can probably clarify .. ?

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[Munchie]

Don;t work like that Marie as Jim says if it is your ONLY residence then you have to pay council tax at the lowest rate

 

[weejocky]

Itinerant Full Timers should pay something but it would be hard to nail them down. If you are static, then you should pay like everyone else. Fulltimers won't get much for their money, but neither do house dwellers, why should they get away without paying, why did jimscotland not want to pay?

 

[scotjimland]

why did jimscotland not want to pay?

are you asking me or the forum ?

I posted for information, not to justify what I did or didn't want to do.

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[Munchie]

Business rates are paid by the site owner and you pay through the site fees. It is just a way of the robbing councils being paid twice. :Angry:

 

[weejocky]

Yes all bussineses with property have to pay business rates. They are different from domestic rates and have nothing to do with them so it cannot be a charge twice. Some full timers might try to get away with it or appeal, but those fulltimers would want the local police or fire service to attend if there were an emergncy. A proportion of the tax goes to these organisations, but probably only after tea, cakes and comfy chairs and cast iron inflation proof pensions for council staff are paid for. But just because you choose to live in a van shouldn't mean you get away with it.

 

[GJH]

Yes all bussineses with property have to pay business rates. They are different from domestic rates and have nothing to do with them so it cannot be a charge twice. Some full timers might try to get away with it or appeal, but those fulltimers would want the local police or fire service to attend if there were an emergncy. A proportion of the tax goes to these organisations, but probably only after tea, cakes and comfy chairs and cast iron inflation proof pensions for council staff are paid for. But just because you choose to live in a van shouldn't mean you get away with it.

This post just shows how someone can thrash between the extremes of being correct and total b*ll*cks in the same post.

Yes, National Non-Domestic Rates are separate from the Council Tax. NNDR is a central tax, set by Westminster, collected by local authorities and passed straight to Westminster. CT (within the limits allowed by Westminster) is set, collected and spent locally.

The NNDR element for a site (which the site owner will collect through fees like any other business expense) will cover only those who do not reside permanently on the site. Any permanent residents will be liable for CT just like those of us who live in normal buildings.

To actually make a statement like that which I have highlighted in red, however, is nothing more than ignorant defamation. There are good and bad in any walk of life but, speaking personally, I am disgusted that anyone should come onto this forum and make such an ignorant blanket statement. I worked damned hard throughout my local government career, earned my pension as much as anyone in any else, and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

Graham

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[jhorsf]

I just knew that GJH would explain the error of weejockey"s post

 

[grumps147]

One of the problems with the complete tax system in the UK is you never know what element of tax you pay in what area gets spent on that area. Does all vehicle excise duty, fuel excise duty and VAT from vehicles go on roads?? I dont think thats how it works.
Same for local council taxes, they are heavily subsidised from central government, probably from your vehicle taxes.
As an element of any site fee should take account of the cost of basic council services such as waste disposal, and water to the water company and so on and so forth, then are you not being charged twice if you are asked to pay council tax?
Two issues here. First i personally believe everyone should pay their share - don't get me going about the super rich ability to avoid tax. For some things this cannot be based on actual use, as sometimes you may not make any use, but then suddenly you start maxing out use of some particular service. Secondly, there has to be an element of fareness. What is being proposed by a council tax charge may comply with the rules, but in the case of full timers may not be fare PROVIDING the full timer is paying via site fees.
It all about fareness jim, and though this is not fare I think there are too few people concerned to get a change.

 

[jhorsf]

I would LOVE to be taxed just the twice on everything

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[GJH]

As an element of any site fee should take account of the cost of basic council services such as waste disposal, and water to the water company and so on and so forth, then are you not being charged twice if you are asked to pay council tax?

No, in the circumstances of the site in the OP, people are not being asked to pay twice - at least not by the local council or central government.

The site will have been assessed for NNDR (Business Rates) on the basis of occupiers not being full time. That will not include amounts payable for items such as domestic refuse collection because there are separate arrangements for business waste, which must be transported to and disposed of at a licensed commercial waste site. Businesses can deliver the waste themselves or have it collected (for a fee) by either the local council or a licensed waste collection company.

Water and sewerage charges are completely separate from both CT and NNDR and have been for many years so they don't come into it.

The full time occupiers in the Throney Bay Park case are of a similar status to residents of blocks of private flats where the owners of the blocks are assessed for business rates on the common areas of the building (for which they make a maintenance charge) and the individual occupiers pay CT on their flats.

If any element of the business rates payable by the Throney Bay Park site owners is being paid by the full time residents then that is only because that element is being passed on by the site owners. That is a matter between the residents and the site owners and nothing to do with the council.

Graham

 

[weejocky]

This post just shows how someone can thrash between the extremes of being correct and total b*ll*cks in the same post.

Yes, National Non-Domestic Rates are separate from the Council Tax. NNDR is a central tax, set by Westminster, collected by local authorities and passed straight to Westminster. CT (within the limits allowed by Westminster) is set, collected and spent locally.


To actually make a statement like that which I have highlighted in red, however, is nothing more than ignorant defamation.

Graham

Oh I'm sorry, I did not mean to hurt your feelings. But I think your view is ignorant and one sided. You take my light comment about tea and cake and launch an attack on me. I am sure you did earn your pension, well done GJ what were you, a "Diversity Officer" they earn about 46k a year in tea and cake. Or maybe you were an "Climate Control Officer" earning moreoh:
My comment illustrated that a proportion of our council tax goes to essential services, (which fulltimers should pay for) and plenty goes on dubious stuff like cast iron pensions and stupid jobs like I outlined above, that is the truth I am not being ignorant or trying to defame anyone. Nor was I being rude. but you started it. :moon:

 

[madbluemad]

In the past, whilst I have been working way from home I have hired and lived in a Caravan. The rental fees do not include council tax and the only way to avoid it is to move somwhere else every now and again.

And by the way, I was also paying council tax on my home property.

Jim

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[Dodgey]

Jim, Graham, excellent post and very interesting as I to would, and did:thumb:, assume part of any payment to a campsite would have covered any council tax liability, information is good and thanks again:thumb:

 

[scotjimland]

CAB Guidance on council tax liability

Properties exempt from council tax

Some property is exempt from council tax altogether. It may be exempt for only a short period, for example, six months, or indefinitely.

Properties which may be exempt include:

* property which is empty. This means it has to be unoccupied. The property also has to be substantially unfurnished. The exemption applies for a maximum of six months and the property has to be vacant for the whole of this period (although up to six weeks of occupation during the period is allowed)
* property which is vacant because it needs major repairs or alterations to make it habitable. The exemption applies for a maximum of 12 months whether the work is actually finished or not by then
* condemned property
* property which has been legally re-possessed by a mortgage lender
* property unoccupied because the person who lived there now lives elsewhere because they need to be cared for, for example, in hospital, in a care home or with relatives
* property which is unoccupied because the person who lived there has gone to care for someone else
* any property that only students or Foreign Language Assistants on the official British Council programme live in. This may be a hall of residence, or a house
* a caravan or boat which is used as a main residence but which is unoccupied. This exemption lasts for up to six months. A holiday caravan or boat is exempt if it's on a property where council tax is paid
* a property where all the people who live in it are aged under 18
* property which is occupied only by people with severe mental impairment
* a self-contained ‘granny flat’ where the person who lives in it is a dependent relative of the owner of the main property.

If you think that your property should be exempt, you should consult an experienced adviser, for example, at a Citizens Advice Bureau. To search for details of your nearest CAB, including those that can give advice by email, click on (New window) nearest CAB.

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Link Removed

Why don’t Gypsies and Travellers pay rates and taxes?

This is a common misconception. It is true that Gypsies and Travellers don’t pay rent or Council Tax on unauthorised camp sites, as they are not legally allowed to camp there, and this is why they should be on local authority authorised sites where we are able to apply charges/taxes. Gypsies and Travellers on local authority authorised sites pay all the usual charges, as do any Travellers resident within settled accommodation.

 

[slobadoberbob]

World war III as usual

I now know why I am posting less... whatever one says is blown up or attacked.

Bob:Angry:

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[John & Joan]

A caravan on a site for 12 months occupation, like a house, or infact the owners/wardens house, is charged council tax separately from the sites business rates. The council tax may be collected by the site owner in with the rent and then passed on by them to the local authority, or be charged separately by the council to each occupier.

A caravan occupied for up to 11 months of the year although left on site unoccupied for the other month/s is not charged council tax as a second home.

Touring Caravans and RV/Motorhomes pay a fee to park on the site. This fee covers all services and charges, unless a meter is fitted for electricity.

John

 

[scotjimland]

Touring Caravans and RV/Motorhomes pay a fee to park on the site. This fee covers all services and charges, unless a meter is fitted for electricity.

John

Absolutely correct , but full timing isn't the same as going on holiday.

When I questioned the bill I was told that as I lived full time in a 'caravan' with no home address where I payed council tax I was classed as a traveler and if staying on a site was liable for council tax....

The real problem is that full timing isn't recognised as a legitimate way of life.. with no fixed abode you come against all sorts of problems which only come to light after a couple of years .. Without a permanent residence you are effectively living on the fringes of the law...

 

[Xoxoc]

Jim,

As a fulltimer you needed an address for insurances etc.

The address you used had, I assume, council tax paid for it - why did this not negate the need for you to have it on th CL you refer to?

Bryan

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[John & Joan]

Absolutely correct , but full timing isn't the same as going on holiday.

When I questioned the bill I was told that as I lived full time in a 'caravan' with no home address where I payed council tax I was classed as a traveler and if staying on a site was liable for council tax....

The real problem is that full timing isn't recognised as a legitimate way of life.. with no fixed abode you come against all sorts of problems which only come to light after a couple of years .. Without a permanent residence you are effectively living on the fringes of the law...

Full timing in our motorhome is so that we can travel around the UK and Europe. We do not stay on a site for more than 28 days often less. If I had wanted to live in one place, then I would have stayed in the house or bought a Static caravan. It may be that one day we will need to go square wheeled and would then be obliged to pay council tax on a site we occupied all year, or move into a house.

What we were paying in council tax we are now paying in extra insurance to keep us on the road.

The 28 day rule on CLs is to prevent people using these club exempted sites as permanent places to keep a van and live in there. These sites are for people touring around whether they do this all year, or for shorter holiday breaks.

There is nothing in the 1960 Act that specified that you can only stay on a CL for 28 days. This ruling has been applied by the big clubs and DEFRA (Natural England) as a condition of CL use.

Sites

approved by exempted organisations

5.—(l) Subject ​

​

to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule,

a site ​

​

licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of

land ​

​

as respects which there is in force a certificate issued under

this ​

​

paragraph by an exempted organisation if not more than five

caravans are ​

​

at the time stationed for the purposes of human

habitation ​

​

on the land to which the certificate relates.

(2) ​

​

For the purposes of this paragraph an exempted organisation

may issue ​

​

as respects any land a certificate stating that the land

has been approved by the exempted organisation for use by its
members for the purposes of recreation.​

(3) ​

​

The certificate shall be issued to the occupier of the land to

which ​

​

it relates, and the organisation shall send particulars to the

Minister ​

​

of all certificates •issued by the organisation under this

paragraph.​

(4) ​

​

A certificate issued by an exempted organisation under this

paragraph ​

​

shall specify the date on which it is to come into force

and ​

​

the period for which it is to continue in force, being a period

not exceeding one year.
​

​

Some people will take any opportunity to try to close a CL down if they do not like it being there, so they will keep an eye open and report any overstaying or other breaches of conditions.
​

​

John
​

 

[scotjimland]

Jim,

As a fulltimer you needed an address for insurances etc.

The address you used had, I assume, council tax paid for it - why did this not negate the need for you to have it on th CL you refer to?

Bryan

I had no address Bryan ... end of story, 'care of' or otherwise.

I have said this before , it's impossible to be a full timer and not tell lies. You can dress this up and say it's bending the truth but a lie is a lie.

If you have a home address you are not a full timer .. you are long term touring or whatever you want to call it.

Even if you use a c/o address you still have to tell lies by not disclosing your true lifestyle.

 

[Xoxoc]

I had no address Bryan ... end of story, 'care of' or otherwise.

I assumed you had an address as without one what can a fulltimer do for vehicle insurance, driving licence, medical purposes, passport, banking etc.etc.

I accept what you say about fullltiming not being a recognised lifestyle.

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[John & Joan]

I had no address Bryan ... end of story, 'care of' or otherwise.

I have said this before , it's impossible to be a full timer and not tell lies. You can dress this up and say it's bending the truth but a lie is a lie.

If you have a home address you are not a full timer .. you are long term touring or whatever you want to call it.

Even if you use a c/o address you still have to tell lies by not disclosing your true lifestyle.

No True Jim.We have declared that we are living full time in the Motorhome for our insurance (Comfort). The Schedule is marked as such. Our contact address is our daughter we do not live there.We told Sky that we are on the move, and were told as long as they have a contact address there is no problem.We have our licences and banking and other legal documents at our daughters address. The Bank knows what we are doing. We have another contact address (a relative) in our doctors catchment area. The practice knows we do not live there. I was only discussing where we had been and where we were going with the doctor on Monday. He is going to sort out a 6 months prescription for our meds to be picked up in mid November.Telling lies is just a waste of time and it would invalidate the insurance.John

 

[Jim]

No True Jim.We have declared that we are living full time in the Motorhome for our insurance (Comfort). The Schedule is marked as such. Our contact address is our daughter we do not live there.We told Sky that we are on the move, and were told as long as they have a contact address there is no problem.We have our licences and banking and other legal documents at our daughters address. The Bank knows what we are doing. We have another contact address (a relative) in our doctors catchment area. The practice knows we do not live there. I was only discussing where we had been and where we were going with the doctor on Monday. He is going to sort out a 6 months prescription for our meds to be picked up in mid November.Telling lies is just a waste of time and it would invalidate the insurance.John

Hi John, any chance I could get a peek at your policy from Comfort. Every time I have given them the opportunity to confirm in public that they will insure full timers it has not been taken up. Cheers

 

[scotjimland]

No True Jim.We have declared that we are living full time in the Motorhome for our insurance (Comfort). The Schedule is marked as such. Our contact address is our daughter we do not live there.We told Sky that we are on the move, and were told as long as they have a contact address there is no problem.We have our licences and banking and other legal documents at our daughters address. The Bank knows what we are doing. We have another contact address (a relative) in our doctors catchment area. The practice knows we do not live there. I was only discussing where we had been and where we were going with the doctor on Monday. He is going to sort out a 6 months prescription for our meds to be picked up in mid November.Telling lies is just a waste of time and it would invalidate the insurance.John

By having having a trusted family member as a c/o address you seem to have covered most of the bases John. but if like us and I suspect many others, you had no one, it is impossible to live as a full timer, not tell lies and stay within the law.

AFAIK Comfort are the only company offering insurance to full timers.. but at a price many would find prohibitive ..they certainly won't offer it without a c/o address ..

Many fulltimers using a c/o address do not disclose their lifestyle to the insurance company because they know it wouldn't be accepted, so take the risk ..

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[madbluemad]

I was only discussing where we had been and where we were going with the doctor on Monday. He is going to sort out a 6 months prescription for our meds to be picked up in mid November.

I thought that prescriptions could only be obtained for a period of 3 Months.
Jm

 

[Patrick]

I have read this post with interest as we are planning to take a year out ourselves.

As for lying to the authorities, so what! They lie to us every day! Over the last 4 years I have personally felt like you get nowhere by being an honest stand up person in this country anymore, those at the top of the tree, whether its government or finance all treat the system as (I am ok Jack) and if it all goes pear shaped we will just say sorry, it was an oversight. As a kid i was taught those at the top lead by example, well i am still following that rule.

As for local counsel officials they are in my opinion the laziest of all employees. I have to deal with them on a regular basis over work and trying to get anything done takes months with them. Very overpaid and under worked. Most would only last a week in the real business world.

Sod the lot and do your own thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That’s just my opinion and how I think of our society!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[scotjimland]

I have read this post with interest as we are planning to take a year out ourselves.

As for lying to the authorities, so what! They lie to us every day! Over the last 4 years I have personally felt like you get nowhere by being an honest stand up person in this country anymore, those at the top of the tree, whether its government or finance all treat the system as (I am ok Jack) and if it all goes pear shaped we will just say sorry, it was an oversight. As a kid i was taught those at the top lead by example, well i am still following that rule.

As for local counsel officials they are in my opinion the laziest of all employees. I have to deal with them on a regular basis over work and trying to get anything done takes months with them. Very overpaid and under worked. Most would only last a week in the real business world.

Sod the lot and do your own thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That’s just my opinion and how I think of our society!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was exactly my attitude .. sod 'em.. for a year it probably won't be a problem.. especially if you keep your home, albeit rented out .

Sell up and disappear off the radar sounds great, but sooner or later you have to put your head above the parapet, then you are collared .. all sorts of questions , where have you been, were you working, where did you pay council tax, who is your doctor, bank , school etc etc .. takes a lot of explaining .. especially if you want a bus pass

I'm glad we are now back on the radar..took almost a year to get sorted ..

If you plan on fulltiming .. do as John & Joan have done .. ie have a c/o address with a family member who is prepared to look after your mail and be totally honest with insurance, bank, doctor etc ..

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