Kangaroo Petrol (1 Viewer)

[BobProperty]

I'm currently in the southern part of France on a trip with the motorhome. It behaved itself fine getting around and getting to Knutsford but coming down here it goes into "kangaroo petrol" mode where the engine hesitates and misses and bangs about. If I stop for a few minutes or few hours it goes away for a few hours. My interpretation and investigations are as follows:
1. There's rust in the fuel. I have bought a new fuel filter but it hasn't stopped it from happening.
2. I suspect that no one has filled up the van for several months. My trip here will be the first time for ages anyone has filled the tank to the brim.
3. Because of 2, condensation has occurred within the fuel tank and I've probably got rust/crap/water in there which I don't want.

Possible solutions:
Fuel pump could be on its way out. Van is 19 yo and has done 62k. Having a load of crud in it won't help its performance.
Empty fuel tank out as best I can and clean it out
Go for an electric pump to bypass the mechanical pump. This is an old performance car trick to save bhp on the mechanical pump.
Remove and clean fuel pump - if possible.

Any suggestions gratefully accepted.

 

[movan]

Crumbs Bob... That's the last thing you wanna be doing on your holiday isn't it!!! Are the girls with you?

I know it is probably a daft thing to say but you sure you put deisel in? It's the sort of mistake I would make especially if the pump in a foreign language:Sad:

Hope you get it sorted even if it means emptying tank out and starting again... an unwanted expense but compared to missing out on your holiday time prob a solution?

 

[BobProperty]

Crumbs Bob... That's the last thing you wanna be doing on your holiday isn't it!!! Are the girls with you?

Yes and don't ask about the puncture and the jack.

I know it is probably a daft thing to say but you sure you put deisel in? It's the sort of mistake I would make especially if the pump in a foreign language:Sad:

Hope you get it sorted even if it means emptying tank out and starting again... an unwanted expense but compared to missing out on your holiday time prob a solution?

Have I put diesel in? I hope not, it's a petrol engine . And my French isn't great but I know my gazole from my essence.
OT the petrol is way above the diesel price at present. Diesel you might find for around €1.10 Petrol you can easily pay €1.50 for.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[movan]

At least you have managed to keep a sense of humour about it all.

Hope you get sorted.:thumb:

 

[acting_strange]

Hi Bob

If you could find a friendly french garage you could try "back blowing" the fuel line with an airline as it could be a dirty pick up pipe in the tank. Take off the fuel line before the filter, remove the petrol cap and jet air down the fuel line from an air hose. It has to be done carefully so as not to throw fuel out of the tank via the cap etc.

Has the fuel filter been fitted the right way round?

 

[BobProperty]

The fuel filter that is on now is the right way round. I know because I fitted it
I'm beginning to suspect that this filter is an afterthought by someone. I've just found that the hose has a small split in it so I will need some new hose. But, I question the position of the filter. It's between the pump and the carb and return pipe. Why isn't it before the pump? Unless there's some volume delivery thing going on. :Confused:

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acting_strange]

the filter should always be between the pump and the carb.

Can you see any rust etc in the filter (or i it one of those metal ones?)

You could also have some cr*p in the float bowl of the carb...so depending on how confident etc you are??

 

[BobProperty]

the filter should always be between the pump and the carb.

Fair enough but that sounds a recipe for knackering pumps.

Can you see any rust etc in the filter (or i it one of those metal ones?)

How much do you want? It's was pretty bad. New one looks to have picked up some too.

You could also have some cr*p in the float bowl of the carb...so depending on how confident etc you are??

Not sure if it has a float chamber but yes, if it has it would be worth cleaning it out. Hey I've got nothing else to do.

 

[acting_strange]

Sorry Bob have I been stupid and shown my age.....is your engine injected??

That's a whole different ball game.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acting_strange]

Another sudden thought (it has been a while since I was doing this for a living) is your tank breathing properly?

If you have a blocked breather it would give those symptoms?

It used to be a classic in the bygone days and I would always have a pin or paperclip in the breakdown vehicle just to poke the hole out with.

 

[BobProperty]

No it's carburated. None of this modern technology. Yes the vent is a possibility too, any idea where they are? Is there a separate tube or a hole in the filler cap or what? By the way, 2 litre peugeot engined Talbot Express from 1991.

 

[acting_strange]

Sorry i dont know where the breather is.....but it is a simple enough test to rule it out.....when the motor stalls/cuts out....take the filler cap off and try re starting....if its a blocked breather it will start almost immediately..as soon as the fuel gets through.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[wizzer59]

Had a simular thing happen to old car I once had, I would be driving along and it would start to cough and splutter and lose power, I would stop lift the bonnet have a look, nothing, get back in start it and it would be perfect again, this went on for weeks until I eventualy discovered it had a none standard air filter and as I was going along the carb was icing up and as soon as I stopped to look it would melt etc, etcoh:. As soon as I put a standard filter on (remember the ones that could be turned so the inlet was right next to the exhaust manifold in the winter) the problem went away.
Mind you it is summer so this should not be the case

 

[DESCO]

If it does turn out to be breather you could always drill small hole in cap, had to do this once when we could not get correct cap and made do with one without breather hole.


Dave :thumb::thumb:

 

[acting_strange]

A "blocked" air filter would also give this problem...but it would have ti be bad...cause the engine to choke up..again easy to check just take it out and see. You do have to be careful of carb backfires though....It's not nice trying to put out a carb fire.....been there done that..

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[dave newell]

My money's on a blocked fuel tank breather, a known issue with Talbot Express type vans.

D.

 

[BobProperty]

....the carb was icing up.....
Mind you it is summer so this should not be the case

Er yeah, 35 degrees C at 7:00 in the evening the night before last. I think I can safely discount carb icing.

 

[BobProperty]

My money's on a blocked fuel tank breather, a known issue with Talbot Express type vans.

D.

Aha! Thanks Dave; by the way, how's the hair?
Air filter was recently renewed and all breather pipes and filters cleaned so I doubt it's that.
Fuel looks to have a vent pipe off the top of the filler pipe. Will have a play with that later.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[2657]

Just a thought but have you checked for another in line fuel filter between tank and pump.

 

[BobProperty]

Right, best description I can give of the vent system is as follows:
Main filler pipe. Starts out metal then rubber then don't know. Is about 50mm+ in diameter.
Vent. Plastic tube about 30mm diameter, runs from behind filler to tank.
Overflow vent or breather. Plastic tube about 12mm diameter. Runs from behind filler to near tank where it ends in what looks like some sort of one way valve or filter. Vents to air except for this filter/valve thing. This item is circular, about 25-30mm across, plastic, white one side marked SERBATOIO the other side is dark grey marked FISPA.
First - is this some sort of one way vent valve?
Second - how can I tell if it is working?
Third - is it needed?
Fourth - is it supposed to vent to air and not be connected to anything?

 

[BobProperty]

Just a thought but have you checked for another in line fuel filter between tank and pump.

Pretty sure there isn't one. It's well hid if there is.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acting_strange]

SERBATOIO the other side is dark grey marked FISPA.
First - is this some sort of one way vent valve?
Second - how can I tell if it is working?
Third - is it needed?
Fourth - is it supposed to vent to air and not be connected to anything?

Ok on checking this SERBATOIO means "tank" and FISPA make filters...so hmmmmmmm

 

[acting_strange]

Bob have a good look at this it describes you fault..

Link Removed

 

[acting_strange]

Tell you what..

Misfiring / Lack of power

IMPORTANT - check at all the usual suspects first as this is most likely where any misfire or significant loss of power is occurring. Only after discounting these should you move on to the more unusual problems that might arrise:

• Distributor cap / Rotor
• HT leads (£32 ouch!)
• Spark plugs (cheap)
• Air filter (cheap, or can be washed if foam but ensure it is totally dry before refitting)
• Blocked Carb jets
• Ignition timing, etc etc

Failing that try the following :

• Rust in Carb (from petrol tank), symptom: Brown Fuel / sludge in the carb float chamber / blocked fuel filter(s). This is quite common where the vehicle has been laid up for a longish period of time – Strip and clean carb with compressed air (blowing through a small tube such as windscreen washer hose may suffice). If you remove the jet to blow through them be careful not to damage them or drop them down the inlet manifold! Under no circumstances poke something through the jets to clean them. The jets are very soft metal and the slightest internal scratch will alter their specification. Be VERY careful not to damage gaskets as the carb is now obsolete (see links page for carb gasket/overhaul sets). Replace (or fit if not already fitted) the disposable fuel filter. The brown fuel will not damage your engine but you may need a couple of tank fulls of petrol before its fully disappeared. To avoid it happening in future store the vehicle with a full tank.
• Water in the fuel, again if it has been laid up for a long time. To check remove the fuel feed to the carb and crank the engine few times to pump fuel into a clear (dry) glass jar. Leave the jar to stand for a while and see if the petrol floats above a layer of water. Unfortunately water in the tank can only be removed by draining the tank and is best left to a specialist. Under NO circumstances drain fuel into the sewer/drains. It is extremely dangerous (to yourself and others), grossly irresponsible and illegal for very good reason.
• Note that wear is quite common where the throttle spindle passes through the throttle body even on relatively low mileage vehicles. Always lubricate the linkage and throttle spindle with light oil / spray grease. If there is excessive wear here it will bleed air below the throttle plate an lead to a weak fuel/air mixture most noticeable in the low-midrange. If you think this is a problem then remove the throttle spindle and pack it with grease when refitting. Road test to see if this has improved the low-range performance. If it has then unfortunately there is not a lot you can do except a new carb (£150) as the throttle spindle runs directly in the throttle housing with no separate bushes (very silly design). You could try taking the throttle body to an engineering firm to see if they can drill it out and fit metal bushes. If you do this please let me know how you get on and I’ll include the details here.
• Coil failure (usually but not always a gradual degradation over time, possibly more noticeable when engine (and coil) have warmed up) – swap coil with a new one to test, not expensive (£20 new or £5 from a scrap yard).
• Fuel starvation caused by Fuel tank pressure/vacuum device fitted above fuel tank – it is not clear that all models have this although my 1991 facelift model does and these is a way of testing it as follows: Remove the device and blow through it in both directions. Blowing into the tank there should be virtually no resistance at all. Blowing out of the tank there should be noticeably more resistance but air should still pass eventually with the valve acting as a pressure relief valve i.e. it is perfectly reasonable for the tank to be slightly pressurised and a hiss of released pressure when removing the filler cap. Pressurising the fuel tank is very common (on modern vehicles as well) and is an emissions control feature.
• Incorrect fuel cap has been suggested but is unlikely to make much difference. If your ignition and fuel cap keys don’t match then chances are it has had a replacement. The fuel cap should NOT be vented as this is controlled by the tank pressure valve mentioned above. However, personally I find it hard to believe a vented cap and subsequent loss of pressurisation would cause any problems.
• Don’t forget the fuel pump. It is a very old mechanical design and if it fails you may be better off purchasing a universal electrical one instead. If going for an electric one choose a LOW Pressure model. You can try clamping the fuel return pipe to test if the increased fuel pressure at the Carb improves performance. Some people block off the return pipe completely (and remove the "T" piece) which is acceptable provided you block the return pipe to tank in a very secure manner with no risk of spillage (even if the vehicle is inverted) or vapour escaping. Personally I fitted a new standard pump and left the return pipe etc exactly as it was. It is worth noting that the "T" piece has a restriction built in (on my 1991 model at least), i.e. one of the pipes is much smaller internal diameter than the others. This is the case on my 1991 Vehicle and the narrow pipe is the one to which the return pipe to the tank attaches.
• Check for water ingress into any ignition-related leads, particularly those behind the grill which are subject to road spray. Disconnect and clean any electrical plugs especially to the ignition amplifier module (electronic ignition vehicles only). Eelectrical switch cleaning spray is cheap and worthwhile, available from computer stores.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[BobProperty]

The bit I don't understand yet (cos I'm going to find my manual later) is does this valve plug into the tank or is it just loose on the end of the pipe? Because when I crawled underneath the van it was just hanging there. However,it could have been pulled out by me earlier.

 

[acting_strange]

The bit I don't understand yet (cos I'm going to find my manual later) is does this valve plug into the tank or is it just loose on the end of the pipe? Because when I crawled underneath the van it was just hanging there. However,it could have been pulled out by me earlier.

if you read the previous post Bob it would have to be fitted on the tank as it also acts as a pressure relief valve.

We'll get there together

 

[BobProperty]

• Fuel starvation caused by Fuel tank pressure/vacuum device fitted above fuel tank – it is not clear that all models have this although my 1991 facelift model does and these is a way of testing it as follows: Remove the device and blow through it in both directions. Blowing into the tank there should be virtually no resistance at all. Blowing out of the tank there should be noticeably more resistance but air should still pass eventually with the valve acting as a pressure relief valve i.e. it is perfectly reasonable for the tank to be slightly pressurised and a hiss of released pressure when removing the filler cap. Pressurising the fuel tank is very common (on modern vehicles as well) and is an emissions control feature.

Put everything bck together but can't find where the pipe allegedly goes into the tank. Reading the above carefully, it doesn't say it does. The tank has a filler pipe and a vent back to the filler neck. The smaller vent pipe with the one way valve on the end just goes back to the tank but I can't see anywhere for it to go in the tank. If there is a hole in the tank for it then the system wouldn't pressurise which I believe it does.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acting_strange]

Yep sorry Bob....I just wish I could be there and see it and hear it etc...it's very difficult to diagnose from over here on the mainland....

Is it still doing it? when does it do it? does it start after you've been driving a while? does it do it immedialtely? does it do it at tick over? or does it start to miss as you are driving normally?

 

[BobProperty]

I won't know if it has stopped doing it as I haven't been out on long run yet. It doesn't start until I've been going for at least an hour maybe 2 or 3. Once it does it, it tends to do it again. It seems better if you stop for a while but not directly proportional to the time rested. It restarts immediately or almost immediately.

 

[acting_strange]

I won't know if it has stopped doing it as I haven't been out on long run yet. It doesn't start until I've been going for at least an hour maybe 2 or 3. Once it does it, it tends to do it again. It seems better if you stop for a while but not directly proportional to the time rested. It restarts immediately or almost immediately.

So does it sort of starts misfirng then gets progressively worse until it becomes undriveable?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}