Aires and wild-camping in suitable locations (1 Viewer)

[John & Joan]

I have posted a topic on the Governments "Your Freedom" Website

Link Removed

Your comments on this topic on the site would be welcome

 

[parkay3560]

I have posted a topic on the Governments "Your Freedom" Website

Link Removed

Your comments on this topic on the site would be welcome

way to go John

fully and completely agree with everything you put on the website. Its about time us MHers got the clean end of the stick instead of the ***t end. Who should legislation that came out when folk used to walk in front of cars with red bloody flags still be the same in the 21st century. Times move on- the laws should change with the times- and not in an authoritarian way that curtails civil liberties either.

I will follow this thread with interest.

Bessy regs

Kenny

 

[barryd]

Very well put. Ive given it a rating and added a supportive comment if thats ok.

Im just not sure it will ever happen in this country though. There has been an ongoing dialogue with a Forestry Commision ranger on the wildcamping site who had posted on three occasions telling people not to wild camp in the Lake District and I actually entered into a long debate via email with this guy and they just dont get it, they dont just see a motorhome the same as they do a tent or a caravan. Totally blinkered vision. I suspect many councils, politicians and the general public feel the same.

Very very sad but good luck!!!

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[scotjimland]

A well presented case.. well written

However, I wouldn't have used the term 'wild camping ' in the title, it may give the wrong impression ..

I think 'Motor Caravan, - Aires and Parking' would have been been less contentious


Comment added to petition

 

[barryd]

A well presented case.. well written

However, I wouldn't have used the term 'wild camping ' in the title, it may give the wrong impression ..

I think 'Motor Caravan, - Aires and Parking' would have been been less contentious

Agreed. I didnt really take that in but your right. Can it be changed?

 

[John & Joan]

Agreed. I didnt really take that in but your right. Can it be changed?

I have had a look and there are no editing facilities.

John

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[barryd]

Well the main message is in the content which is very well worded.

 

[scotjimland]

I have had a look and there are no editing facilities.

John

no big deal.. it is a good letter

now, what we need is more forum members to sign up and log on and make their voice heard..

so come on folks.. this thread has had over 100 hits but only 12 have made their voice heard ..if you don't shout no one will hear .. it's simple to register ..

 

[johnp10]

Well done, John.
Case very well put.
John

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[parkay3560]

Been and registered and added my bit......

 

[barryd]

Its on FACTS now as well so even more coverage!

 

[cornishaich]

Great! you have put our case as well as could be put,:thumb: Lets hope for change.oh:

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[John & Joan]

A post quote from another forum

I'm a France-visiting, Motorhome owning, parish councillor and, if you wanted an 'aire' installed in this area (unlikely given how rural it is), you'd need to begin by providing a convincing business case to justify the benefits and to identify where the funding would come from.

If it's to be claimed that the large network of French Aires encourages foreign motorcaravanners to visit that country, then that's undoubtedly true. But I can't see a few 'stop-overs' scattered around the UK doing the same thing.

Good luck with this, but I'm sure a small petition won't do much good. If you really want a network of 'stop-overs' in the UK, then you'll need to have lots of competent, dedicated people prepared to spend time, effort (and a fair bit of their own money) working hard together towards that end.

It is now a month since this issue was posted and so far it has generated 105 comments and has been supported by 98 votes with a rating of 4.6 out of 5.

This is not a great number considering the number of Motor Caravans registered in the UK and the amount of comment the issue generates on this and other forums alone. If this is to be taken seriously we need many more Motorhome users to register on the "Your Freedom" website and support this by rating it, as well as commenting.
Link Removed

I agree with the contributor to the other site that we do need to get together and cooperate in promoting this issue. We already have a number of competent people, working independently promoting this issue, by contacting local authorities but also many more who write to a council and put the issue forward without any support from others who have been down this road before them. We do need to approach this in a business like manner.

We have existing clubs but they do not seem interested in promoting Aire type stop overs in the UK.

I have been working on a document to support approaches to Local Authorities and will be happy to forward by email a copy to anyone interested in reading it for comments and criticism. If we can approach councils with a uniform approach we stand more chance of achieving our goal.

You can contact me by PM on here with an email address and I will send a copy to you. Once a suitable document is available it can, if Jim is happy with it, be put into the downloads area for other to print and use to support their induvidual approaches.

John

 

[GJH]

Having discussed parking with every LA in the UK, having been partially instrumental in the provision of the overnight stop facility at Guisborough and having seen several petitions and approaches to LAs by individuals in the past I reluctantly came to the conclusion some months ago that relatively few people actually want aire type facilities in the UK.

The councillor quoted is undoubtedly correct in highlighting the need to provide "a convincing business case to justify the benefits and to identify where the funding would come from", especially in these days of public sector spending cuts.

Another thought which struck me a short while ago was whether I was right when I advanced what I believed was a valid business case in the past - if the case is so economically viable (i.e. potentially profitable) why haven't private sector entrepreneurs set up aires already?

Graham

 

[John & Joan]

Having discussed parking with every LA in the UK, having been partially instrumental in the provision of the overnight stop facility at Guisborough and having seen several petitions and approaches to LAs by individuals in the past I reluctantly came to the conclusion some months ago that relatively few people actually want aire type facilities in the UK.

The councillor quoted is undoubtedly correct in highlighting the need to provide "a convincing business case to justify the benefits and to identify where the funding would come from", especially in these days of public sector spending cuts.

Another thought which struck me a short while ago was whether I was right when I advanced what I believed was a valid business case in the past - if the case is so economically viable (i.e. potentially profitable) why haven't private sector entrepreneurs set up aires already?

Graham

If you keep pushing hard enough at doors they eventually open.

Thanks for all the good work you have done so far Graham. Please do give up.

John

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[GJH]

If you keep pushing hard enough at doors they eventually open.

Many of the arguments for councils establishing aire type facilities revolve around the fact that extra visitors to a town will bring extra trade to local businesses. Whilst in some cases (though not many?) that might result in extra people being employed, in the main the extra trade will really translate to extra profit for the businesses involved.

Given that councils have so many pressures on their budgets at the moment can we expect them to (basically) turn taxpayers' money into extra profits for businesses by spending on the provision of aires? Might it not be more appropriate to ask the businesses themselves to make the necessary investment on the grounds that they will see a return on it?

The British Chambers of Commerce have a web site Here with links to all the local chambers in the country. Anyone sufficiently interested might wish to contact each of the local chambers and advance the argument in the hope that they might persuade their members to invest.

Graham

 

[scotjimland]

Many of the arguments for councils establishing aire type facilities revolve around the fact that extra visitors to a town will bring extra trade to local businesses.


Graham

I've heard this argument many times Graham and am still not convinced that it is the case to any appreciable value ..

If like me, and probably the vast majority, before heading for a site or aire we stock up at a supermarket with both provisions and fuel.. fill the fridge and freezer because we know it will be far more expensive if purchased in a local store.

yes, we may buy a few trinkets, the odd item we forget or run out of, or even a fish supper but by and large, those looking for cheap / free overnight stops are not big spenders , not because they are mean or tight but are running on a tight budget..

I think you would have a hard job convincing local business people that it was to their financial benefit to invest in mh parking

 

[GJH]

I agree Jim. As I said the other day, if the case is so economically viable (i.e. potentially profitable) why haven't private sector entrepreneurs set up aires already?

If there isn't actually any benefit to the local area (i.e. the local taxpayers) we can hardly expect councils to invest money they have raised from those taxpayers just so we can have somewhere cheap/free to stop overnight.

Graham

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[Simba]

Registered and added our bit as well.

 

[John & Joan]

Another thought which struck me a short while ago was whether I was right when I advanced what I believed was a valid business case in the past - if the case is so economically viable (i.e. potentially profitable) why haven't private sector entrepreneurs set up aires already?

Graham

Hi Graham

The simple answer to why private sector entrepreneurs have not set up Airs is the Planning Laws and the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. Add to this Model Standards for caravan Sites that planners insist on.

Getting planning would involve going through all of the hoops that any other site would have to comply with. A site licence would need to be obtained. Site licences are not normally issued unless a site is for 10 or more pitches. Model standards dictate spacing between units. The number of toilets, Wash Basins and showers that have to be provided for users of each sex. Distance from Water points and disposal facilities. Width of roads etc.

All of this would make it more economical to set up a caravan site rather than try to provide Aire type facilities

Local Authorities under the 1960 Act can set up a site without the need for a site licence. They can also decide that reduced facilities can be provided for a site.

By providing Presumed Planning for Aire type facilities, as is the case with sites for exempted organisations, Government could cut out a lot of bureaucracy involved in seeking planning permission.

As I read it the 1960 Act
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]confers powers to[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] local authorities[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] to provide sites where caravans may be brought, whether for holidays or other temporary purposes[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] or for use as permanent residences, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and to manage the sites or lease them to some other person.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]A local authority shall have power to do anything appearing to them desirable in connection with the provision of such sites, and in particular -[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif](a) to acquire land which is in use as a caravan site, or which has been laid out as a caravan site, or[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif](b) to provide for the use of those occupying caravan sites any services or facilities for their health or convenience.[/FONT]
​

[/FONT]​

​

John

 

[GJH]

I understand what you're saying John but is it not the case that the model standards are aimed at "conventional" sites and not at aires? My experience of dealing with LAs regarding motorhomes is that many members/officers do not appreciate the difference between motorhomes (with all facilities on board) and towed caravans because nobody has actually explained those differences to them.

We had a weekend down at Beverley at the end of May with a group in what was simply a field with a water tap and Elsan point and are going to Ambleside tomorrow to a site which I understand has similar (restricted) facilities.

That being the case then I would have thought it would be perfectly possible for LAs to be persuaded to grant licences for sites having simply aire type facilities once the full details have been explained to them.

The only "hoops" which should then have to be negotiated would be the normal ones for any planning application as to suitability for/detriment to the area. That is why I suggested involving chambers of commerce who have both the contacts with LAs and the necessary negotiating expertise.

I appreciate that the 1960 Act makes it easier for LAs to set up sites themselves but given the current economic climate it will be very difficult to persuade any LA to tell their local taxpayers that they want to spend Council Tax money to boost the profits of a few local businesses.

Regrettably, though, I suspect that the main reason for not providing aire type facilities is that there is not a high enough demand for them.

Graham

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[John & Joan]

I understand what you're saying John but is it not the case that the model standards are aimed at "conventional" sites and not at aires? My experience of dealing with LAs regarding motorhomes is that many members/officers do not appreciate the difference between motorhomes (with all facilities on board) and towed caravans because nobody has actually explained those differences to them.

We had a weekend down at Beverley at the end of May with a group in what was simply a field with a water tap and Elsan point and are going to Ambleside tomorrow to a site which I understand has similar (restricted) facilities.

That being the case then I would have thought it would be perfectly possible for LAs to be persuaded to grant licences for sites having simply aire type facilities once the full details have been explained to them.

The only "hoops" which should then have to be negotiated would be the normal ones for any planning application as to suitability for/detriment to the area. That is why I suggested involving chambers of commerce who have both the contacts with LAs and the necessary negotiating expertise.

I appreciate that the 1960 Act makes it easier for LAs to set up sites themselves but given the current economic climate it will be very difficult to persuade any LA to tell their local taxpayers that they want to spend Council Tax money to boost the profits of a few local businesses.

Regrettably, though, I suspect that the main reason for not providing aire type facilities is that there is not a high enough demand for them.

Graham

I agree that basic sites are possible, BUT LAs follow government guidance in these agreed model standards. They CAN under certain circumstances, usually to do with location or environmental impact of the added infrastructure, allow, but not very often, sites to be licenced with fewer facilities than the model standards.

It is to address the lack of understanding that I have been working on an information pack to support applications. AndyC has had a look at it and suggested some modifications and additions.

I agree that we need to get the chambers of commerce involved but they will be in a similar position if they are not familiar with the RV/Motor home, on the road today a.

Your knowledge and experience would be of assistance if you are willing to participate in the preparation of this document. As would input from anyone else with experience of dealing with local authority planners or chambers of trade officers.

As is often the case the noisy ones are heard asking for something but the silent majority will sit back and do nothing until something is provided then they will descend on the facilities once they are provided.

I will be interested in your experience of the Ambleside site as this, I understand, has been set up unofficially but has now had intervention by the local authorities and he has had to raise his prices to meet the demands that have resulted from this intervention.

 

[John & Joan]

I understand what you're saying John but is it not the case that the model standards are aimed at "conventional" sites and not at aires? My experience of dealing with LAs regarding motorhomes is that many members/officers do not appreciate the difference between motorhomes (with all facilities on board) and towed caravans because nobody has actually explained those differences to them.

We had a weekend down at Beverley at the end of May with a group in what was simply a field with a water tap and Elsan point and are going to Ambleside tomorrow to a site which I understand has similar (restricted) facilities.

That being the case then I would have thought it would be perfectly possible for LAs to be persuaded to grant licences for sites having simply aire type facilities once the full details have been explained to them.

The only "hoops" which should then have to be negotiated would be the normal ones for any planning application as to suitability for/detriment to the area. That is why I suggested involving chambers of commerce who have both the contacts with LAs and the necessary negotiating expertise.

I appreciate that the 1960 Act makes it easier for LAs to set up sites themselves but given the current economic climate it will be very difficult to persuade any LA to tell their local taxpayers that they want to spend Council Tax money to boost the profits of a few local businesses.

Regrettably, though, I suspect that the main reason for not providing aire type facilities is that there is not a high enough demand for them.

Graham

I agree that basic sites are possible, BUT LAs follow government guidance in these agreed model standards. They CAN under certain circumstances, usually to do with location or environmental impact of the added infrastructure, allow, but not very often, sites to be licenced with fewer facilities than the model standards.

As you say, it is in a lot of approaches, the lack understanding of what modern motor homes are like and how they differ from caravan that is a stumbling block. It is to address the lack of understanding that I have been working on an information pack to support applications. AndyC has had a look at it and suggested some modifications and additions.

I agree that we need to get the chambers of commerce involved but they probably will be in a similar position if they are not familiar with the RVs/Motor homes on the road today. Just as are the LAs are. We need to provide the missing information to them as part of any contact.

Your knowledge and experience would be of assistance if you are willing to participate in the preparation of this document. As would input from anyone else with experience of dealing with local authority planners or chambers of trade officers.

As is often the case, the noisy ones are heard asking for something, but the silent majority will sit back and do nothing until something is provided, then they will descend on the provided facilities once they are up and running.

I will be interested in your experience of the Ambleside site, as this I understand, has been set up unofficially but has now had intervention by the local authorities and he has had to raise his prices to meet the demands that have resulted from this intervention.

John

 

[GJH]

I wish you luck John but at the moment I have too much on my plate to take part in a campaign. I'm finding it difficult enough to find the time to do much on the parking site.

Graham

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[John & Joan]

I wish you luck John but at the moment I have too much on my plate to take part in a campaign. I'm finding it difficult enough to find the time to do much on the parking site.

Graham

Thank you Graham

I do appreciate the work you put into the parking forum

John

 

[John & Joan]

HMG - Your Freedom Website

The site has now closed on 10 September.
There were 107 suporters and 110 comments.
It would appear that there is no demand for Aires in the UK.
John