This Is The Sort Of Behaviour That Makes Me Hate The Apple Company (1 Viewer)

[scotjimland]

White goods are still repairable. I don't know why you think they are not economically viable to repair? The only exception to this would be fridges/freezers are I don't know the current laws/rules on re-pressurising them. But motors and control boards are all replaceable/repairable by competent DIY 'ers...

In theory yes , in practice, no, in most cases it's cheaper to replace.. and not just throwaway items like a plastic kettle..

Recently our four year old Bosch dishwasher broke down.. out of warranty , I found the problem was in the main control board which isn't repairable.. a new front panel from Bosch was going to cost MORE than a replacement machine .. so while in theory it was repairable.. it wasn't cost effective.

Many years ago my dad (may he rest in peace) was a manager in the SSEB Electricity Board showroom in Paisley, they had 'small electrical goods' repair counter.. Kettles , toasters, Hoover vacuum cleaners, etc could be serviced and repaired.. When I was an apprentice, repairing such items was nice little side line..
That went out of the window years ago.. cheap manufacturing in China put paid to that sort of thing.. of course you can still have the service engineer call and have hm repair a washing machine, but in most cases, unless under warranty it won't be cost effective..

Go down to any recycling centre and see the skip loads of white and brown goods stacked high.. have a closer look, many don't look more than a few years old..


Does anyone remember the TV repair guy who came to your house to fix the telly ... doubt you could find one these days.. wouldn't be economically viable

TV don't work.. bin it ..

 

[Gromett]

I’m sure manufacturers would argue that they already do a) and b) with the proviso that b) isn’t available to every random person that asks, which, as I posted before, I think is a good thing from a security point of view.

security point of view? I really don't understand what you mean here? Some manufacturers do A but not all by a long way.

Who gets to decide what a “reasonable price” is? Surely you arent suggesting some sort of government price controls on private businesses? You know as well as I do what a slippery slope that would be.

No I am not suggesting price controls. I am suggesting that the law states reasonable price and leave it for the courts to decide if a manufacturer is being unreasonable. For instance, selling a circuit schematic for £10,000 would be clearly unreasonable, whereas £100 is not.

I’m sure c) happens in one form or another already as well. There’s definitely a requirement of some description to support a product for a minimum period after production ceases.

But they don't... The number of times I have not been able to repair something because the manufacturer stops making the parts as soon as the product ceases to be made is a long list.

 

[SpeedyDux]

In theory yes , in practice, no, in most cases it's cheaper to replace.. and not just throwaway items like a plastic kettle..

Recently our four year old Bosch dishwasher broke down.. out of warranty , I found the problem was in the main control board which isn't repairable.. a new front panel from Bosch was going to cost MORE than a replacement machine .. so while in theory it was repairable.. it wasn't cost effective.

Many years ago my dad (may he rest in peace) was a manager in the SSEB Electricity Board showroom in Paisley, they had 'small electrical goods' repair counter.. Kettles , toasters, Hoover vacuum cleaners, etc could be serviced and repaired.. When I was an apprentice, repairing such items was nice little side line..
That went out of the window years ago.. cheap manufacturing in China put paid to that sort of thing.. of course you can still have the service engineer call and have hm repair a washing machine, but in most cases, unless under warranty it won't be cost effective..

Go down to any recycling centre and see the skip loads of white and brown goods stacked high.. have a closer look, many don't look more than a few years old..


Does anyone remember the TV repair guy who came to your house to fix the telly ... doubt you could find one these days.. wouldn't be economically viable

TV don't work.. bin it ..

There used to be a nice man with a very handy little electronics repair shop in Bristol that I used to use.

He fixed TVs, HiFi components, VCRs for a small fee. Long gone and a service that is sadly missed.

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[Gromett]

Louis covers the court case here, also explains why "Right to repair" is important.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

security point of view? I really don't understand what you mean here? Some manufacturers do A but not all by a long way.


No I am not suggesting price controls. I am suggesting that the law states reasonable price and leave it for the courts to decide if a manufacturer is being unreasonable. For instance, selling a circuit schematic for £10,000 would be clearly unreasonable, whereas £100 is not.


But they don't... The number of times I have not been able to repair something because the manufacturer stops making the parts as soon as the product ceases to be made is a long list.

Full dealer diagnostic software allows full unrestricted access to the ECU. Commercially available cheap generic equivalents don’t.

It’s a long boring story that won’t add anything to this thread but I’ve seen first hand the difference in what can be done with each and I’d be very concerned if dealer software was freely available to anyone that wanted it.

Price controls are exactly what you are suggesting. It doesn’t matter whether the controls are set by the courts or the government. It amounts to the same thing.

The worth of a schematic is whatever the owner of it deems it to be just like a day of your time programming is worth whatever you say it is. If you don’t want to buy at that price don’t buy. Simple. It’s none of anyone else’s business.

What will you be saying if this happens and 6 months later someone decides whatever you charge is unreasonable and they ask the court to rule that server work is only worth 10% of your rate?

 

[tonyidle]

The worth of a schematic is whatever the owner of it deems it to be just like a day of your time programming is worth whatever you say it is. If you don’t want to buy at that

That is only true if there is a competitive alternative. In the case of wiring schematics or service information for a specific item that is not the case.

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[Gromett]

Full dealer diagnostic software allows full unrestricted access to the ECU. Commercially available cheap generic equivalents don’t.

It’s a long boring story that won’t add anything to this thread but I’ve seen first hand the difference in what can be done with each and I’d be very concerned if dealer software was freely available to anyone that wanted it.

Price controls are exactly what you are suggesting. It doesn’t matter whether the controls are set by the courts or the government. It amounts to the same thing.

The worth of a schematic is whatever the owner of it deems it to be just like a day of your time programming is worth whatever you say it is. If you don’t want to buy at that price don’t buy. Simple. It’s none of anyone else’s business.

What will you be saying if this happens and 6 months later someone decides whatever you charge is unreasonable and they ask the court to rule that server work is only worth 10% of your rate?

As Tony says. You are not comparing apples to apples.
My services are in a competitive market place. Apple has the monopoly on circuit schematics, diagnostic tools and spares. The same goes for the car industries diagnostics. You as an owner have to go to a dealer that has be authorised or paid for access to the service manuals/diagnostic tools. My 3 points on right to repair only apply to companies where they have a monopoly on that information. In my case I do not have a monopoly on my knowledge/skills and it is therefore a competitive market. I cannot charge £1,000 an hour and get away with it as the market will stop me. No one else can produce an Apple schematic or the diagnostic tools..

It wasn't always this way. I even remember a time when the Commodore 64 has a circuit diagram in the back covers of it's manual.

What they are doing now is just anti competitive, solely aimed at ensuring they decide when a product has reached the end of life.

 

[hilldweller]

I’d be very concerned if dealer software was freely available to anyone that wanted it.

What on earth are we talking about here, a common semi disposable mobile phone or Supercharged V12 four wheel drive 250 mph Ferrari ?

It's a phone. It's nothing. The only reason it is not fully open is to screw the owner, the very person paying all those billions of profit.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

What on earth are we talking about here, a common semi disposable mobile phone or Supercharged V12 four wheel drive 250 mph Ferrari ?

Neither.

Fiat if you really want to know.

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[Deleted member 29692]

That is only true if there is a competitive alternative. In the case of wiring schematics or service information for a specific item that is not the case.

As Tony says. You are not comparing apples to apples.
My services are in a competitive market place. Apple has the monopoly on circuit schematics, diagnostic tools and spares. The same goes for the car industries diagnostics. You as an owner have to go to a dealer that has be authorised or paid for access to the service manuals/diagnostic tools.

OK, we'll leave aside for now the issue of whether the owner of intellectual property has the right to set their own price for the beneficial use of that property.

Assuming your idea was adopted please tell me exactly what protection you would put in place for the OEM?

What happens if someone not specifically trained, to the OEM's minimum standard, to do the job they are attempting on the product has a crack at a repair and fails to fix it or, more likely, makes it worse?

I'm assuming you aren't seriously suggesting that warranties should still be honoured?

 

[tonyidle]

OK, we'll leave aside for now the issue of whether the owner of intellectual property has the right to set their own price for the beneficial use of that property.

Assuming your idea was adopted please tell me exactly what protection you would put in place for the OEM?

What happens if someone not specifically trained, to the OEM's minimum standard, to do the job they are attempting on the product has a crack at a repair and fails to fix it or, more likely, makes it worse?

I'm assuming you aren't seriously suggesting that warranties should still be honoured?

I'm not. If any work by a non-approved repair place contributed to or caused the warranty claim then of course it shouldn't be honoured. That said it should be my choice as a customer whether to risk my warranty or not, and vehicles are still in good repair and in use for years after any warranty has expired.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

That said it should be my choice as a customer whether to risk my warranty or not,

That's the point isn't it. You might understand and willingly accept that risk.

If the public at large were intelligent and honest enough to also understand and accept the risk you would have a reasonable point.

Most people aren't though. They'll happily let some untrained monkey have a crack at a repair because they're cheap and then throw their toys when the OEM says sorry, your warranty's void. Seen it happen many times. Had quite a good laugh as a spectator on a few occasions.

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[tonyidle]

That's the point isn't it. You might understand and willingly accept that risk.

If the public at large were intelligent and honest enough to also understand and accept the risk you would have a reasonable point.

Most people aren't though. They'll happily let some untrained monkey have a crack at a repair because they're cheap and then throw their toys when the OEM says sorry, your warranty's void. Seen it happen many times. Had quite a good laugh as a spectator on a few occasions.

I understand - but that will never be a reason for an effective monopoly to lock-down a product. In the longer term the customer loses.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

I understand - but that will never be a reason for an effective monopoly to lock-down a product. In the longer term the customer loses.

So in your opinion every business should be made to roll over and allow customers to take the piss at will?

Because that's exactly what would happen. You probably wouldn't believe someone of the things people try and get away with now, never mind what would happen if it was made easier for them.

Surely if an OEM is selling a unique product they already have a monopoly?

 

[tonyidle]

No. I started by asking that, as in the past, service and repair information should be freely available. It worked before and it would work now. There are manufacturers who still do this, even putting the information on line, but an increasing number do not. That's all l object to.

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[JJ]

I've read all the thread up to here and...


I still HATE THE APPLE CORPORATION.


JJ

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I've read all the thread up to here and...


I still HATE THE APPLE CORPORATION.


JJ

So much hate.......

Not worth it

 

[Langtoftlad]

Surely if an OEM is selling a unique product they already have a monopoly?

Only unique/monopoly until someone strips whatever down, reverse engineers it and puts it on YouTube .

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[Deleted member 29692]

Only unique/monopoly until someone strips whatever down, reverse engineers it and puts it on YouTube .

Yep.

And people are suggesting that they should be forced to give away schematics to make it easier for people do this.

 

[Gellyneck]

I've read all the thread up to here and...


I still HATE THE APPLE CORPORATION.


JJ

OK, think we might get that but..............
can I ask a very pertinent question?
OK, I will anyway!
If you had £1000 and it was mandatory you must spend it on one of two items which would you go for?
Would you spend it on an iPhone or prefer to get a few pounds change from purchasing the alternative?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-43809282
No other options are available!
Now remember, honesty is the best policy!

ps, ain't got and would (currently) never plan to have any Apple kit.

 

[Gromett]

OK, think we might get that but..............
can I ask a very pertinent question?
OK, I will anyway!
If you had £1000 and it was mandatory you must spend it on one of two items which would you go for?
Would you spend it on an iPhone or prefer to get a few pounds change from purchasing the alternative?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-43809282
No other options are available!
Now remember, honesty is the best policy!

ps, ain't got and would (currently) never plan to have any Apple kit.

That's comparing Apples to Bananas Think I know which I prefer

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[SMB]

That’s a complete and utter myth.

At least 90% of the apps I use on my iPhone are third party.

A higher percentage than that of apps on the Apple App Store are 3rd party.

The only difference between. Apple and Google in this regard is that Apple have a much more stringent set of tests for stability and security. Personally I like that. Why would I want to use an app that can’t pass decent testing?

This “Apple don’t permit 3rd party apps” story was started many years ago, right at the start of the smartphone era I’m guessing by some people who couldn’t get their app through the Apple testing.

Do you have to jailbreak your Iphone to install 3rd party apps? I tried that on my old Iphone 5s without success just out of curiosity, I haven't rooted my android phone as there's no apps I really want which require it.

 

[Minxy]

Do you have to jailbreak your Iphone to install 3rd party apps? I tried that on my old Iphone 5s without success just out of curiosity, I haven't rooted my android phone as there's no apps I really want which require it.

I think he's referring to the apps you get via the Apple App store, not elsewhere, obviously Apple don't product them all but get them from 'vetted' sources.

 

[SMB]

I don't give a monkey's flying break of wind how good or bad the Apple products are...

I posted an article showing why I HATE the company.

I HATE THE COMPANY because of it's loathsome policies, attitude and behaviour.

(And I am proud to have Mr SMB as a mate even if he has taken up with bloody RED.



JJ

I only took up with The Red because I felt sorry for Dave having to take the brunt of your verbal Blue assaults, she is now helping to share the load

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[SMB]

I think he's referring to the apps you get via the Apple App store, not elsewhere, obviously Apple don't product them all but get them from 'vetted' sources.

Ah I see, my fault, I realised that they don't produce all of their apps but thought NickNic was talking about apps other than from the app store. Thats what I meant by third party, should have said open source instead. Ta!

 

[JJ]

If you had £1000 and it was mandatory you must spend it on one of two items which would you go for?

I would definitely go for £1000 worth of (inflatable) bananas and take them to the Cathedral For The Enlightened Ones... just like the good old days.


JJ

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Do you have to jailbreak your Iphone to install 3rd party apps? I tried that on my old Iphone 5s without success just out of curiosity, I haven't rooted my android phone as there's no apps I really want which require it.

No idea but also no idea why anyone would want or need to.

I’ve never been unable to find any app that I want on the App Store.

If it’s something where the developers are unable or unwilling to meet the stability and security standards that Apple set for inclusion on the App Store then I don’t want it on my device anyway.

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[MyrtleGuru]

Recently our four year old Bosch dishwasher broke down.. out of warranty , I found the problem was in the main control board which isn't repairable.. a new front panel from Bosch was going to cost MORE than a replacement machine .. so while in theory it was repairable.. it wasn't cost effective.

Just fixed our 25-year-old Bosch dishwasher. That's its fourth repair (three by me).

It was still under warranty the first time it failed. The engineer came out and swapped a PCB for a new one. When it failed again, it was out of warranty. I took out the same PCB myself and re-soldered the obvious dry joints on the board (thanks to Google where I found out about this common issue with that model).

It kept going for quite a few years, before the soap dispenser wore out -- a cheap part that was easy to replace.

Then the solder joint problem reappeared recently, which I repaired and it is working again. I don't think it will last much longer, though, as a lot of the plastic parts are becoming brittle with age and starting to crack or snap.

White goods are so relatively cheap these days that you often cannot justify the cost of repair because of how much it costs to fix them. Most of that cost is not parts, but labour and call out fees, etc. Even a one-man-band engineer has costs to cover other than his time like insurance, running a van, tools, manuals, advertising, certification, etc. It's a shame that it is simply a question of econmics that results in a throw-away society. Then again the consumer society relies on us throwing things away and buying new ones just to keep people in work!

 

[Gellyneck]

Talking about fitting a third party screens to an iPhone 8 believe the recent software update (v11.3???) will identify it's not oem and disable touchscreen functionality thereby making it a bit of a fancy paperweight!

 

[Minxy]

Talking about fitting a third party screens to an iPhone 8 believe the recent software update (v11.3???) will identify it's not oem and disable touchscreen functionality thereby making it a bit of a fancy paperweight!

Hmmmm ... if they CAN do that I think they'd be sued ... I cannot believe they can tell someone how they can repair their phone once Apple have sold it to them!

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