Anyone seen my 650kg? (1 Viewer)

[EssexBoy]

Hi everyone
Got a wierd one here for sure and I can't get me head round it..

We used to have a 2003 Laika H710 A class van that I updated to 3850kg as we ran at a consistent 3800-3900kg fully loaded up. We now have a 2004 Euramobil 810HB A class tag axle plated at 4500kg...

Now here the issue... I moved all our gear from old van to new for our trip away this week. I don't think I added any extra kit other than a spare toilet cassette. However whilst we were away I stopped in at a weighbridge to check how much payload I actually had (I want to get a scooter), and was horrified to see we tipped the scales at 4740kg ie. 240kg overweight !!!

My understanding of the new van is that empty it's supposed to be about 3600kg, so with my 500-600kg of kit onboard, I expected to be well under... Obviously not...

So, have I dropped a proverbial and all I've done is upgrade to a van that has space for more "stuff" but can't actually legally carry it? It just doesn't make sense that I have exactly the same stuff in a theoretically bigger/better van but am worse off weight wise?

So, before I commit to a knee-jerk uplating with SV Tech just to get me out of immediate danger, how do you boys with similar size tag axle vans with garages full of motorbikes, BBQs, camping gear etc get on? Are you running at 5000kg+ or have you stripped out all unecessary kit?

Any thoughts anyone?

Thank you

Steve

 

[jezport]

You can possibly get it replated at 5000kg with no work to do.
I did with my Frankia tag

 

[peterc10]

I suspect the problem lies with the weight of the van empty rather than the weight of the stuff you put in it. Would not be the first moho with a fairy tale MIRO.

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[EssexBoy]

You can possibly get it replated at 5000kg with no work to do.
I did with my Frankia tag

Thanks @jezport I think I don't have much option in the long run, but still can't grasp why I've got so little practical payload, when I see so many pictures of vans with chock a block garages etc. Have I just got it wrong?

 

[EssexBoy]

I suspect the problem lies with the weight of the van empty rather than the weight of the stuff you put in it. Would not be the first moho with a fairy tale MIRO.

Thanks @peterc10
So, my actual empty weight is near 4000kg you think? Would make sense, I guess...

Do you have a tag? And does your van suffer the same?

 

[peterc10]

Thanks @peterc10
So, my actual empty weight is near 4000kg you think? Would make sense, I guess...

Do you have a tag? And does your van suffer the same?

I don't have a tag. But I do have a Fiat based 7.5m long 2015 Hymer A class with Alko maxi chassis and the MIRO with all the extras comes in at about 3700kg. I do not know the size of your van but I would take a guess that it would probably weigh more than mine when empty.

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[EssexBoy]

I don't have a tag. But I do have a Fiat based 7.5m long 2015 Hymer A class with Alko maxi chassis and the MIRO with all the extras comes in at about 3700kg. I do not know the size of your van but I would take a guess that it would probably weigh more than mine when empty.

Thanks Peter...
Ours is also on the alko maxi but is a bit longer at 8.1m, so I guess a third axle would add a sizeable amount.
So thinking about it, if your van is 3700kg then the quoted 3600kg for mine sounds really suspect...

 

[peterc10]

Thanks Peter...
Ours is also on the alko maxi but is a bit longer at 8.1m, so I guess a third axle would add a sizeable amount.
So thinking about it, if your van is 3700kg then the quoted 3600kg for mine sounds really suspect...

The only way to know is to empty it and then take it to a weighbridge again.

 

[funflair]

Whatever MIRO and payload are originally quoted this is based on a basic van without option so there is a fair chance that you now have another battery, solar panels, awning etc etc, these all come off the original payload.

Martin

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[Lenny HB]

Some manufacturers do appear to take the pee. Hymer appear to be the only manufacture that can build to the design weight. Our last two Hymers the MIRO was 30kg under current one is 8kg over very acceptable.

Check your Certificate of Conformity, there will be a line that gives you MIRO and a line under it that gives Technical MIRO that is the one you are interested in it will give you the MIRO it left the factory at with factory fitted extras. Then you need to add any dealer and self fitted extras.

Being a German van the MIRO allowances include driver @ 75kg, 20kg water (20lt), fuel 75kg (90% of 90lt), 17kg gas (1 X 11kg aluminium bottle)

Like Peter our 4500 kg Hymer has plenty of payload fully loaded we have 600kg spare about 500 on rear axle and 300 on the front.

 

[Pausim]

I think a lot manufacturers claim payload figures based on the vehicle in a very basic state without factory fitted options. I doubt that any motorhomes actually leave the factory in that condition. I agree with @Lenny HB that Hymer seem pretty good at getting their weights right and do give the weights for all the extras. I was surprised by how quickly the payload gets eaten up, on my motorhome the auto and tow bar are over 100kg to start with. I have no idea whether tag axles are part of the basic specification but if not perhaps the axle itself is part of the payload?

 

[rb62]

We hava a 2008 7.8m tag axle Pilote and that came in at 4100kg empty,we had it weighed,with a Max weight of 4600kg so the dealer upgraded it to 5200kg before we bought it.No extra work just added the axle weights together

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[jezport]

Thanks @jezport I think I don't have much option in the long run, but still can't grasp why I've got so little practical payload, when I see so many pictures of vans with chock a block garages etc. Have I just got it wrong?

Its strange. because my Frankia tag which was not a cheapo lightweight construction was only around 4500kg when fully loaded and that was with stock as well. I only up-plated to give me the extra flexibility of weight distribution. IIRC it gave me 300kg extra on the rear axles and 500kg overall.

The only things I can think are that the extra accessories weigh more than expected and you have more water on than you think, some vans have extra water tanks fitted if used for motox. Are you sure you dont have one? And finally a lot of soggy wood

 

[EssexBoy]

Thanks all for the comments

I did realise that some of our payload is being used by by the accessories on the new van, but funnily enough, they are very much the same as the old van ie. 2x solar panels, 3 batteries, 2x alugas bottles, fiamma awning and towbar.

I suspect I'm in the same camp as @rb62 with "empty" being over 4000kg, and maybe as much as 4250kg...

I dont remember seeing a CoC in the docs we got with the van,, so I think that's the first thing to dig out & check...

Cheers

 

[EssexBoy]

Its strange.

Yeah.. my thoughts too.. maybe I've just had the (wrong!!) impression that tag axle always means "big payload"... maybe, as @rb62 explained with his pilote, some tags only have "normal" payloads and need uprating just like smaller vans?

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[Gorse Hill]

Some manufacturers do appear to take the pee. Hymer appear to be the only manufacture that can build to the design weight. Our last two Hymers the MIRO was 30kg under current one is 8kg over very acceptable.

Check your Certificate of Conformity, there will be a line that gives you MIRO and a line under it that gives Technical MIRO that is the one you are interested in it will give you the MIRO it left the factory at with factory fitted extras. Then you need to add any dealer and self fitted extras.

Being a German van the MIRO allowances include driver @ 75kg, 20kg water (20lt), fuel 75kg (90% of 90lt), 17kg gas (1 X 11kg aluminium bottle)

Like Peter our 4500 kg Hymer has plenty of payload fully loaded we have 600kg spare about 500 on rear axle and 300 on the front.

Don’t think Hymer are any different to any other manufacturer even if you do love them, @peterc10 indicated his van MIRO was 3700kg with extras, 7.5mtrs on a maxi chassis.
Interesting to know what the payload on that van on a 3500kg standard chassis whould be, since they sell more of this spec. I bet it’s design weight doesn’t look great then.

 

[peterc10]

Don’t think Hymer are any different to any other manufacturer even if you do love them, @peterc10 indicated his van MIRO was 3700kg with extras, 7.5mtrs on a maxi chassis.
Interesting to know what the payload on that van on a 3500kg standard chassis whould be, since they sell more of this spec. I bet it’s design weight doesn’t look great then.

With the maxi chassis the payload was about 1200kg and the maximum weight was 4500kg. The factory fit extras the dealer specified came in at approximately 400kg, so technical payload was about 800kg. All these figures are from memory as all the paperwork is at home and I am in Spain.

I don't think Hymer sold many 2015 B678s without the maxi chassis!

 

[two]

I had a Euromobil once. One of the best layouts and best equipped vans I've had. It was heavy, though. I can't speak for all their models but I imagine that many are simply overweight in use (simple = in ignorance).

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[Gorse Hill]

With the maxi chassis the payload was about 1200kg and the maximum weight was 4500kg. The factory fit extras the dealer specified came in at approximately 400kg, so technical payload was about 800kg. All these figures are from memory as all the paperwork is at home and I am in Spain.

I don't think Hymer sold many 2015 B678s without the maxi chassis!

So a 3500kg B678 standard van had 300kg payload without any extras, which am sure they sold in the uk.
My point was there all the same when it comes to selling a van with completely inadequate payloads and I still can’t get my head around how they are allowed to get away with it.
You made the right choice with the maxi chassis, enjoy your holiday

 

[peterc10]

So a 3500kg B678 standard van had 300kg payload without any extras, which am sure they sold in the uk.
My point was there all the same when it comes to selling a van with completely inadequate payloads and I still can’t get my head around how they are allowed to get away with it.
You made the right choice with the maxi chassis, enjoy your holiday

I am not sure as to what evidence you have to say that they sold many as opposed to listing them. The standatd chassis was lighter than the maxi so the payload would have been better than your figure but I do not know by how much..

I am sure that Hymer sold models with lower payloads than I wanted as did every other maker. But the point being made about Hymer is that the MIRO and payload figures they publish openly in their price list are usually accurate and therefore can be relied upon. That is more than can be said for many other makers figures.

 

[Gorse Hill]

I am not sure as to what evidence you have to say that they sold many as opposed to listing them. The standatd chassis was lighter than the maxi so the payload would have been better than your figure but I do not know by how much..

I am sure that Hymer sold models with lower payloads than I wanted as did every other maker. But the point being made about Hymer is that the MIRO and payload figures they publish openly in their price list are usually accurate and therefore can be relied upon. That is more than can be said for many other makers figures.

I agree they might be more realistic than others but clearly still offering for sale a van with a total inadequate payload.
My point was there all doing it, including Hymer.
Your own response on the issue.

With my model 3.5t left you with only 260kg of payload, and that assumes that the model was not overweight. The extras on mine came to 378kg! 3.85t should be easy to achieve, but it would still not be enough payload to load such a large motorhome. The garage is huge and very tempting! But not sure they could get it to 4t.

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[peterc10]

I agree they might be more realistic than others but clearly still offering for sale a van with a total inadequate payload.
My point was there all doing it, including Hymer.
Your own response on the issue.

There you go then. My guess work from Spain was pretty accurate. I have never suggested in this post that Hymer do not sell models with low payloads. The OPs figures show that he should have a good payload if the makers figure was to be believed. My point, which was made to help answer his question, was that the maker's figure may not be accurate.

Makers get away with low payloads because buyers allow them to. If people stopped buying models with low payloads or rejected them if the payloads had been wrong, rather than ignoring the problem, then the problem would disappear. But that comment cannot possibly apply to the OP who thought he had bought a moho with a good payload when that is probably not the case.

 

[Lenny HB]

I'm not in love with Hymers as you put just happens to be the vans that I have most knowledge off and happen do own them as the layouts suit us.
What I can state is that Hymers are truer to listed weights than any other manufacture.
Friends with Carthago's ( which I really like by the way) have had vans that have been 130kg over.
As Peter say although they offer the larger vans on. 3500kg chassis I yet to see a UK or German dealer stock one. Surely at the end of the day it is up to the buyer to decide but if you have crap dealers that don't advise the customer it's not Hymers fault.

 

[Gorse Hill]

I'm not in love with Hymers as you put just happens to be the vans that I have most knowledge off and happen do own them as the layouts suit us.
What I can state is that Hymers are truer to listed weights than any other manufacture.
Friends with Carthago's ( which I really like by the way) have had vans that have been 130kg over.
As Peter say although they offer the larger vans on. 3500kg chassis I yet to see a UK or German dealer stock one. Surely at the end of the day it is up to the buyer to decide but if you have crap dealers that don't advise the customer it's not Hymers fault.

Agreed on a lot you of what you said and the same with Peter, however I do think all manufacturers/dealers do have some responsibility to ensure customers don’t purchase vans that are not fit for purpose.
Am lucky I have this forum for advice, however I think there are plenty of unfortunate people who have been sold a van unaware they are driving illegally, that can’t be right on any level.

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[EssexBoy]

Just a quick update...

I just went through my docs for the van and whilst I didn't find the official MIRO for the van, I did find a Euramobil doc with the ex-factory weights on it showing that the van was 3600kg when it left them. This number says it was just the van as it stood ie. no driver, fuel or water etc

So, as the weighbridge says we were 4750kg, that suggests we have 1150kg in accessories + water/fuel + our stuff from our old van + the same passengers, which sounds a lot to me.... Or am I just in denial?

 

[SandraL]

Just a quick update...

I just went through my docs for the van and whilst I didn't find the official MIRO for the van, I did find a Euramobil doc with the ex-factory weights on it showing that the van was 3600kg when it left them. This number says it was just the van as it stood ie. no driver, fuel or water etc

So, as the weighbridge says we were 4750kg, that suggests we have 1150kg in accessories + water/fuel + our stuff from our old van + the same passengers, which sounds a lot to me.... Or am I just in denial?

Just like us, van quoted at 3300kg, we travel at 4500 all up.
Rear air, higher rated tyres and an uprate from 4250 to 4750 done.

 

[Blue Knight]

I do think all manufacturers/dealers do have some responsibility to ensure customers don’t purchase vans that are not fit for purpose.

I saw an older couple yesterday sign-up for a new van at a dealer and they probably didn't know that its realtime payload was circa 100kg max.

The dealer was pleased with his sale.

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[Pausim]

Euramobil doc with the ex-factory weights on it showing that the van was 3600kg when it left them.

I can’t help thinking this is a theoretical weight based on the base specification and not one taken from your vehicle on a weighbridge. I found a 2003 Gocaravanning review for an Euromobil Integra 810 HB-L, is this the same as yours? This gives an unladen weight of 3650kg and shows the mh with a single axle not a tag. If it is the same outfit then adding a tag axle and possibly some other extras is likely to have pushed the unladen weight up considerably, perhaps by your missing 650kg. Just my thinking, not an authoritive opinion.

 

[Gorse Hill]

I saw an older couple yesterday sign-up for a new van at a dealer and they probably didn't know that its realtime payload was circa 100kg max.

The dealer was pleased with his sale.

That’s why I think it’s important the manufactures don’t offer vans in the 3500kg category when there clearly not fit for purpose.
That poor couple could have worked all there life and sunk there retirement money into that van to go travelling and enjoying life, unfortunately there is a good chance they will be driving illegally and possibly without insurance if there overweight and totally unaware of there mistake.

 

[Minxy]

Apart from anything else the Euro Mobile is 1.13m longer and has an extra axle so obviously there's no way on earth it can be as light as it at first 'appeared' so that was very misleading. The axle alone will probably gobble up the vast majority of the extra payload, then the awning is going to be a longer version so that will also add weight.

Its gonna be a case of jettison some goodies, not carry as much fresh water, or uprate I'm afraid.

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