new spanish A-frame ban!! (1 Viewer)

Nov 14, 2009
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hi all, just thought i'd pass this on. this morning i left vinaros heading south and after 5 km was pulled over by the gaurdia civil and told that it is no longer possible to use an A-frame in spain. the officer was very polite and spoke good english and showed me a 5 or 6 page A4 dossier showing photos of campers with towed cars and loads of blurb. this was a new document dated 31/3/2010 and supposedly sent to all the gaurdia civil saying as from this date a €60 fine will be imposed on anyone towing with a frame. i was not fined but told i would be if i continued to tow my car . i am going to benicarlo trafico office on tuesday when it reopens after easter weekend to try and get a copy of this document. so be warned, it looked official but who knows?? will keep you posted, all the best sean</SPAN>
 

lebesset

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May 31, 2009
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well , it had to happen sooner or later ; as it stands the regulations are not absolutely clear in several countries , and spain has at least studied the situation and made a decision

what is needed is for the EU to frame regulations as to the legality of this , if they decide it should be legal lay down design specifics ; that way every country can adopt the same principles and we will all know where we stand

spain is increasingly regularising it's vehicle regulations , it started with the high res/2 triangles bit , and the regulations about parking / camping motorhomes is now clear enough ;this winter I had a visit from a local policeman who told me I couldn't spend the night where I was , I asked why and he said because that is what his boss tells him to say
I pointed out that I was not camping , absolutely nothing on the ground except the tyres , produced my copy of the government regulations , pointed out that HIS action was therefore illegal under EU regulations as he was trying to deprive me of my rights

he wished me a pleasant good night and went on his way .....maybe because his boss drove up to see what was happening and gave him the nod not to press the point ...didn't say a word though

maybe we need regulations for our vehicles as I understand exists for trucks in the EU ; just because you legally drive a truck in one country doesn't mean it is automatically legal to drive it in another [ it is not correct to say that if a vehicle is legal in the country of registration it is legal everywhere ]

if I understand correctly there is a trucking specification which is legal in all EU countries , so that if you do continental trucking and buy to that you CAN go anywhere ; maybe someone from the trucking industry can confirm that as I only have it by word of mouth , it might just be that the trucking industry know that if , for example you don't exceed certain weights/dimensions/ spreads etc you will acceptable everywhere

ps to seanoo , glad you didn't have to shell out €60 ; but this is typical of spain since the demise of franco ; if there is a new regulation they just rap your knuckles for the first year or so , let the word spread ; after that , on your own head be it !
 

Geo

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Jul 29, 2007
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Fine !!!Ill just go to France instead and spend my money there:thumb:
On their heads be it:Doh:
I would like to see the list of Fatal or even serious accidents or even minor accidents or even ANY accidents caused by A frame towing that has warranted such action
If its True:winky::RollEyes:

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Feb 22, 2008
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Yet more proof that the European Union does not work, all countries and cultures are different and as such cannot and will not be bound by the same regulations and laws.
 

Tony Santara

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A Framing has always been a grey area even though some a frame fitting companies supply a document saying it is legal. I have a toad myself.
As for the "trucking industry" being able to go anywhere is not strictly true we ( the trucking industry ) have always had to adhere to the laws of the country we travel through, it's not a lifetime ago ( pre EEC ) that we had to apply for permits to enter various countries.

Until there is a directive by common market law that A Frames are legal or not we have to assume it's a grey area
 
2

2657

Deleted User
Don't know much about A-frames so googled this morning and came up with an interesting DfT document setting out their 'opinion' at the moment. All the DfT documents that I have seen have a proviso about the courts making the ultimate decisions, so until there is a test case all that can be done is to follow there advice which boils down to the towed car becoming a trailer and therefore complying with trailer regulations. This means the brakes have to work and automatic reversing must be possible, of course this only applies to the UK.
I have seen today in Portugal an RV towing a vehicle on an A-frame, I will list the infringements that I could see:
Unbraked A-frame
Breakaway cable unattached ( would not do anything anyway)
Red & white striped overhang marker displayed when no overhang.
Incorrect long vehicle marker.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the A-frame debate is it any wonder that the Guardia stop people when so many other obvious infringements are on display.

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Forestboy

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Jul 31, 2007
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Time to give this motorhome lark up soon I think.

Can't tow a car, can't carry a motorbike in the garage.:Angry:
Can't wildcamp, can't go into towns, height barriers, speed and lane restrictions, fuel prices:Eeek:

For me its about traveling and seeing the world and £30k to £50k for a decent m/home buys a lot of traveling. The sense of freedom is rapidly being taken away by the faceless bureaucrats, there are plenty of other ways to travel. :Angry:
 

Geo

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At least two of your infringements could be down to your lack of experience with A frames and RVs
an electric braking and brake away system is often used as in my case, no visible cables can be seen, and the factory fitted breakaway cable is surplus to requirements

Also If I'm not mistaken differing laws such as the UK and Spain have a totally different out look, I believe over here things are legal until your told they are illegal
and over there they are illegal until your told there legal:Doh:
I could of course have dreamt all that:RollEyes:
 

chatter

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In spain it has always been illegal to use an A frame for the nationals and it would no doubt have got up their noses that Brits use them, even if you are in a car that has broken down you have to use a proper trailer to recover it over there.
Someone in spain has possibly looked into the use of A frames here and found that they are a grey area with no legislation making them legal nor illegal so therefore anyone using one if pulled cannot claim they are legal over here.

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Snowbird

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In spain it has always been illegal to use an A frame for the nationals and it would no doubt have got up their noses that Brits use them, even if you are in a car that has broken down you have to use a proper trailer to recover it over there.
Someone in spain has possibly looked into the use of A frames here and found that they are a grey area with no legislation making them legal nor illegal so therefore anyone using one if pulled cannot claim they are legal over here.
Agreed,you only have to see the look of envy on the faces of the Germans with there huge campers with a trailer behind that they more often than not have to pay campsite parking for when we roll up with the toad. PRICLESS.
 
Feb 22, 2008
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Time to give this motorhome lark up soon I think.

Can't tow a car, can't carry a motorbike in the garage.:Angry:
Can't wildcamp, can't go into towns, height barriers, speed and lane restrictions, fuel prices:Eeek:

For me its about traveling and seeing the world and £30k to £50k for a decent m/home buys a lot of traveling. The sense of freedom is rapidly being taken away by the faceless bureaucrats, there are plenty of other ways to travel. :Angry:

I'd thought about that Ror but travelling through airports, the queues , the security and the ever increasing safety issues, I think i'll stick to the RV :thumb:
 

TonyIsh UK

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Oct 31, 2008
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Not a great fan of Spain, to much dodgy dealing in the public services. All thos poor sods who legitimately built houses and the have the land taken or houses knocked down.

Makes Spain a laughing stock, if was not so serious.

Rgds

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lebesset

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the land grab business is exclusive to the valencia region and is a bad business even though legal ; which is why the EU is investigating ...the law has been there since the franco days and is against all natural justice

but as regarding the demolition of houses , I happened to have a look at a couple of these properties this past winter ; the people who bought must have thought they were being clever ...the dodgy developer may have bribed the mayor to get a planning certificate but when you see a property being built in a protected area , clearly marked , you know something is wrong
yes I know people sometimes got away with it in the past , but those days are over ; if you want to take a chance to look clever , feel free ....just don't whinge when the roof falls in

some take bigger chances than others ...how about building a hotel in a protected area and hoping to get away with ! that guy will never have a room occupied before it is demolished !


btw , found the answer to my question about EU truck specifications , it exists , and is most commonly known about eurokombi
 
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duetto owner

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i do not have an A Frame motorhome and do not tow, but curious what are the dangers of this or the alleged reasons for the new law?
 

Snowbird

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i do not have an A Frame motorhome and do not tow, but curious what are the dangers of this or the alleged reasons for the new law?
I would think its becouse the Spanish nationals are not allowed to use an A frame, they dont like the idea of us having somthing that they cant.:winky:

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lebesset

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May 31, 2009
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well , whatever the reason for it being banned for spanish registered vehicles it is then totally illogical to allow foreign vehicles to do it

suppose a french registered vehicle is in the UK ; how would you feel if it was legal for it to drive at 130Km/h on the motorway when you are illegal at above 110Km /h ?

no brainer as far as I am concerned ; wherever you go you accept local law ...if you don't want to ...don't go
 

Griffs

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A Frames

Is it time to bury this thread ? as it is getting just as boring as the gas attacks!!!:Doh::Doh::Doh:
 

gazz

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to be honest spain isa bit of a pain for laws,

it is true that in the uk everything is legal untill made illegal, abroad, for sure in germany, everyting is illegal untill made legal.

when i was touring europe a few years ago, i had a scooter and dog trailer, had bsolutely no problems with that untill i got to spain, where i was stopped and they wanted to take the scoot and trailer off me, because your not allowed to have animals in a trailer behine a scooter, never mind that i was from england where it was legal, and it was legal in germany, france, switzerland, holland, belgium and austria.. countried i'd ridden the scoot and dog trailer before getting to spain,

in germany i has a police mad ask to take my photo with the 'rig' as he thought it was so cool.

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barnybg

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Jan 23, 2010
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Spanish.......

As mentioned in an earlier post,there's so many rules/regs and no go areas for motorhomes/vans in Spain,i cant see the point in going there anymore,perhaps if owners stopped going ,maybe they would lighten up,as to be honest they need every tourist to be there at the moment,a little like Greece on the lack of money issue !
It seems to me,that they want you in a hotel or overpriced,sardined campsite,otherwise your not welcome,all the fool them,other destinations will be sought,France have their heads screwed on,and so of other countries,it's time you looked elsewhere in EUROPE,if travelling more than 500 miles....
Otherwise it's take a braked car trailer,i guess or share a moped.
 
2

2657

Deleted User
!
It seems to me,that they want you in a hotel or overpriced,sardined campsite,o

Most so called 'wild' camping spots that I have seen in Spain & Portugal and even some in France resemble Tesco car park on a friday afternoon. The sites that we use in Europe are neither overpriced or overcrowded, you pays your money(or not) and takes your choice!!!
 

hilldweller

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As mentioned in an earlier post,there's so many rules/regs and no go areas for motorhomes/vans in Spain,i cant see the point in going there anymore

I've come to the same conclusion, though it hardly affects us, we love Italy but Spain is just for weather. And that fell over this winter.

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PeteH

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Spanish Law?

Hi

Quote:- "Also If I'm not mistaken differing laws such as the UK and Spain have a totally different out look, I believe over here things are legal until your told they are illegal
and over there they are illegal until your told there legal"


Most of Europe was under the heel of Napoleon at one time or another!! (and we all know what a little "s**t he was!!) "Napoleonic law" as it is loosely known ASSUMES Guilt. YOU prove your innocence WE (Brits) still (at least nominally) work the other way around. But not for much longer the EU is gradually "chipping" it away.

The way I see it, the only way to R-V is in the USA? where such things as towing etc are still Not penalized, Unlike Europe. You can Actually use a towing dolly in most states!!.


pete

Ps I too was "pulled" by Spanish "plod" 3 times in 2008/9. I think I only got away with it because I shrugged my shoulders and looked as if I would abandon the toad by the road? (its only worth peanuts anyway).

p
 

hilldweller

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YOU prove your innocence WE (Brits) still (at least nominally) work the other way around. But not for much longer the EU is gradually "chipping" it away.
p

Looking at many of the absurd rulings in the UK combined with the absurd costs I have to consider this a good thing.

UK law seems to me just a means to make lawyers exceedingly rich. Playing a sort of chess game with the lawyers as the main winners.
 

barnybg

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Matamoros,I suggest you have been looking in the wrong 'wild camping' sites,at the end of the day,its called wild camping because YOU choose to camp/park where you like (in total piece and quiet if you wish ) or you can be with the Baaaah,baaahh lot and park,'in a carpark' or layby with others,whichever turns you on,but the freedom you have and of course the price.......as some think paying 50 euros a night a bargain in their £50,000 motorhome (personally i find ludicrous ) may as well go on a package tour and save the outlay !!!! A motorhome is a home on wheels,you have everything catered for 'in your wheels'' shower,toilet,kitchen,entertainment blah,blah but as everyone has a choice :winky: i dont knock their decisions..where i am now,i can take a 2 week holiday with fuel ,to the Greek or Black sea coast and spend less than £200 !!! or i could go to campsites and spend well over £700 ....choices eh ! :thumb:

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Jim

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I wonder how far you'd get triple towing in Europe. This is legal in more than half of the US states:Smile:

triple.jpg


tripletow.jpg
 

Snowbird

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Was told in a previous post that its legal in the UK,if you are prepared to restrict your speed to 30MPH.
Personaly wouldnt like to chance it.
 
2

2657

Deleted User
Matamoros,I suggest you have been looking in the wrong 'wild camping' sites,at the end of the day,its called wild camping because YOU choose to camp/park where you like (in total piece and quiet if you wish ) or you can be with the Baaaah,baaahh lot and park,'in a carpark' or layby with others,whichever turns you on,but the freedom you have and of course the price.......as some think paying 50 euros a night a bargain in their £50,000 motorhome (personally i find ludicrous ) may as well go on a package tour and save the outlay !!!! A motorhome is a home on wheels,you have everything catered for 'in your wheels'' shower,toilet,kitchen,entertainment blah,blah but as everyone has a choice i dont knock their decisions..where i am now,i can take a 2 week holiday with fuel ,to the Greek or Black sea coast and spend less than £200 !!! or i could go to campsites and spend well over £700 ....choices eh !
__________________
Welshman in Bulgaria (fulltime)


I think we have gone a little off thread here so I will also try and post this in the ‘Why height barriers’ thread.
Most of what you say I am in full agreement with but the term’wild camping’ is somewhat misleading, staying in a £50,000 plus motorhome in a car park, with a generator for essentials like hairdryers vacuum cleaners and satellite systems is neither wild nor camping.
Our 5th wheeler IS our home and we choose to stay on uncrowded ,quiet , inexpensive,sites ,and there are still plenty of these about throughout Europe if you look hard enough.
Many people like to park up in out of the way places enjoying the countryside in a responsible manner but many beauty spots are ruined by too many inconsiderate people and hence the use of height barriers etc restricting peoples freedom.
I do not personally have much experience of the effects of ‘wild camping’ in the UK but I have seen many places in Spain & Portugal where motorhomes and RV,s(£150,000 plus) are parked so close together on car parks and derelict sites that they can only just open their doors. Personally I do not see the point, I have always managed to find uncrowded sites (admittedly mostly out of season) and very rarely pay more than €15 a night, sometimes much less.These so called ‘wild campers’ still feel the need to descend on sites occasionally to wash everything they possess, including the vehicle, fill up with water and do their ablutions. I am sure this is why so many Spanish sites charge a ridiculous fee for one night stops.
I can understand peoples wish to get away from it all and ‘wild camp’ in remote areas but the vast majority that I see do not do this and seem to want to herd together, in my opinion, totally unsuitable places.
The French have a superb system of aires, many free, set up mainly to cater for one or two night stops and sets an example of what should be available everywhere. Unfortunately this system is often abused by people staying for weeks on end.
One mans freedom can often be at someone else’s inconvenience and expense. :Smile:

Lancastrian in 5er (fulltime)
:Smile:

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lebesset

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for many years I was a tugger and a motorhomer
I had audi quattro's and german tandem axle caravan , lot's of space and carrying capacity
I also had a small motorhome , 17ft german again I am afraid ; bought it second hand for weekends etc

unfortunately my equipment got old and , more importantly , I got old so we downsized , 20ft motorhome

but personally I found the caravan more comfortable than my A class Hymer , and more convenient , easier and quicker to set up if you like to be level , no stacking and padding things , no one to listen to the rattles ; 90% of the time I wild camped which I personally prefer

so why do people buy a european sized motorhome and tow a car ? why not a caravan with a nice car to use solo wherever you go ? i can understand people whose dream is an american sized motorhome trailing a car , but a normal european one ?

maybe someone can explain it to me ; I have been down the big yank route ....north america for a year at a time , that was fine , oodles of space there ,everwhere equipped to take them ; people who want to do that in europe know the difficulties and are willing to pay the price , so to speak

btw , I thought the double bottom outfit was a special fairground/circus regulation ...go to mexico , they take a full sized semi-trailer outfit , put a dolly on the back with ANOTHER full sized semi-trailer
 
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Braunston

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May 21, 2008
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Hi,

I think from our point of view we never had a caravan, so when we were thinking about whether to by a caravan or motorhome, the main question that kept coming back was how long do you think you are likely to want to stay in any one place (campsite etc.) and at that time the answer was probably not more than 1 or 2 days, so we were advised that a motorhome would probably be more suited, and up to last year that was the case.

Now we have found one or two campsites/areas that we really like and have found we are stopping for 7/10 days at a time and while the bus is an option a toad is preferable. we have looked at trading the motorhome in and getting a caravan but its like a lot of things in life you get used to what you have and find amending it rather than replacing it much easier.

Hope that answers some of your questions


for many years I was a tugger and a motorhomer
I had audi quattrlebtesseo's and german tandem axle caravan , lot's of space and carrying capacity
I also had a small motorhome , 17ft german again I am afraid ; bought it second hand for weekends etc

unfortunately my equipment got old and , more importantly , I got old so we downsized , 20ft motorhome

but personally I found the caravan more comfortable than my A class Hymer , and more convenient , easier and quicker to set up if you like to be level , no stacking and padding things , no one to listen to the rattles ; 90% of the time I wild camped which I personally prefer

so why do people buy a european sized motorhome and tow a car ? why not a caravan with a nice car to use solo wherever you go ? i can understand people whose dream is an american sized motorhome trailing a car , but a normal european one ?

maybe someone can explain it to me ; I have been down the big yank route ....north america for a year at a time , that was fine , oodles of space there ,everwhere equipped to take them ; people who want to do that in europe know the difficulties and are willing to pay the price , so to speak

btw , I thought the double bottom outfit was a special fairground/circus regulation ...go to mexico , they take a full sized semi-trailer outfit , put a dolly on the back with ANOTHER full sized semi-trailer
 

pappajohn

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I wonder how far you'd get triple towing in Europe. This is legal in more than half of the US states:Smile:

triple.jpg


tripletow.jpg

perfectly legal here as well Jim....if you dont mind travelling at 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads...locomotive restrictions apply. :Doh:

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