Oradour Sur Glane (1 Viewer)

Kool Kroozer

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This is one place I have been really looking forward to visiting as i guess many of you hardcore MHs have already, and as my ol fella served in WW2 but fighting the Japanese in Burma he would never talk about what he did or saw and just wouldnt open up about anything to do with it, and as i love the history of the past i have visited the many war cemeteries in France and even get a bit emotional about it...especially the big American one at Omaha. ..well we arrived at Oradour late lastnight after a constant trek via France and stayed on the aire at the back of the sports stadium, got up nice an early for the 3 minute drive to the free car park outside the what was left of the village.
Waiting for swmbo to get ready so I wandered over to the gates and took a few pics of what I could see of the village, i had a strange feeling come over me as I stood there looking at the ruins, a French woman came by and started to cry and her husband comforted her, i gave a slight smile and walked back to the van, we set off to the entry of the village where you walk down some steps into a kind of reception area where they had on display German war memorabilia of what happened along with a big flat screen tv showing what had happened on the day, German soldiers rounding everyone up and it looked like they were all kneeling down...at this point I just lost it, i had to turn around and walk out, it just seemed so wrong that all these people were murdered and its being glorified by a museum ..does or has anyone else get upset about this kind of thing ? I considered going back as i had drove for hours to get there but wasn't expecting it to be as graphic especially with all the German swatstickers and flags plastered all over the reception... a pretty sad state of affairs and a sad day ..for me.
 
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Kool Kroozer

Kool Kroozer

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Maybe not glorifies it but its just how it made me feel.

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Emmit

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The older I've got, the more emotional I've become.

As a result I've made a conscious decision not to visit Oradour. I do however visit at least one Commonwealth War Grave on each visit to France, and will continue to do so until I am no longer able.
 

scotjimland

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I never looked forward to visiting.. it's not that kind of a place.. I thought of it as a duty..

but felt I had to pay my respects to the people who died there.. to remember them.

I don't want to visit a Nazi death camp.. but feel I should.. and probably will... but will visit at the end of a trip.. not at the start, for I know it will upset me.. just as Oradour did.. :(

My 'upset' can never be compared to the 'upset' these people faced ..
 

mick noe

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Sounds like you did not have a walk round the village? You really must ......a fitting tribute to the people that were murdered there. Very sad but a must just to pay your respects.Not sure about the museum been twice but do not remember it?
 

jollyrodger

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Seconded ,forget the film show .and walk around the old village ,still a bit "staged" but paints the picture of how it was .

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spitfire

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Last year at our motorhome AGM we had a talk from one of the two survivors left. He and a friend managed to escape from the garage after the soldiers left as they played dead but were only shot in the leg. Was moving to meet someone who actually was there
 
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we went a couple of years ago, did the walk through 'museum' bit, then went out into the village on a grey mizzly day, there was something not right, we only just got under the road and turned back

a very sad place, made so much worse by it being a mistake as well :(

I do think it needs to be there though

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ianandkath

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we went there in may, its a moving place, but it shows the german feel towards the people.

but saying that, you must go to see the way the germans thought
 

Don Quixote

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Not long enough, but a little common sense helps..........
We went 2 years ago and like you I felt something odd. Being Ex Military I felt it was my duty to see/walk round, but I really struggled walking round and could not get my head round why would humans do this to each other. A very sad day, which I can still recall, but very glad I did do it. I have gone to other places in Germany whilst serving and was moved by them, but not to the extent this place made me feel. Perhaps as I'm getting other my emotions show more. Please if you can visit it, if not for anything else other than respect for those that lived there once.
 

Big Nick

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History is often brutal, I want to see what happened to try and understand but sometimes there is no explaination

Unfortunately what the SS did there was a matter of routine when they invaded Russia where many hundreds of small villages and hamlets were raised to the ground along with their inhabitants

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scotjimland

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Does the BNP represent everyone who is British or does the Communist Party represent us all?

No..

but the Nazi party were voted into power.. and they could not have committed the atrocities or conducted ethnic cleaning on an industrial scale without the knowledge and consent of millions of ordinary Germans..

Party Votes % Seats +/–
National Socialist German Workers Party
votes: 17,277,180
percentage: 43.91
seats: 288 +92

German federal election, March 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933
 

Snowbird

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I have walked around the village several times and it is a very moving experience. Sadly, no one has ever been brought to task over the atrocities that happened there.

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scotjimland

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I have walked around the village several times and it is a very moving experience. Sadly, no one has ever been brought to task over the atrocities that happened there.

The Trial at Bordeaux 1953


http://www.oradour.info/ruined/ruined.htm

http://www.oradour.info/ruined/chapter5.htm

The Verdicts
The verdicts were announced at 02:10 am on Friday 13th February 1953 after the tribunal had deliberated for thirty-two hours. The defendants were asleep in their cells and were wakened to hear their fate. Before the sentences were read out, the Great Bell of Bordeaux was rung in memory of the dead of Oradour. Not many people were surprised at the results, but that did not of course prevent the expression of disgust from both Alsace and the Limousin. Feelings in Germany itself were not surprisingly largely ignored by the French, but the Germans also had reason to feel unhappy.

German Nationals:
In addition to their sentences, all the Germans were barred from living in France for 20 years. This was a curious addition, as it is difficult to see why they would ever want to reside in a country, which so despised them.

Karl Lenz … Death

Wilhelm Blaeschke … 12 years hard labour

Wilhelm Boehme … 10 years hard labour

Fritz Pfeufer … 10 years hard labour

Hermann Frenzel … 10 years jail

Herbert Daab … 12 years hard labour

Erwin Dagenhardt … Acquitted (he was able to prove that he was not in Oradour during the killings)

Wilhelm Nobbe … Not present in court, as he had been found clinically insane prior to the trial beginning and so was not actually tried at all.

French nationals.
Georg René Boos … Death

Paul Graff … 8 years jail

Albert Daul … 8 years hard labour

Jean-Pierre Elsässer … 6 years jail

Louis Hoehlinger … 6 years jail

Albert Ochs … 5 years hard labour

Joseph Busch … 8 years hard labour

Antoine Lohner … 7 years hard labour

Fernand Giedinger … 8 years hard labour

Alfred Spaeth … 5 years hard labour

Louis Prestel … 6 years hard labour

Henri Weber … 6 years jail

Jean Niess … 5 years hard labour

Camille Grienenberger … 8 years hard labour

1) Of the 46 not present at the trial, all were condemned to death in their absence including Kahn and Lammerding. This blanket condemnation had of course the effect of driving all these men even further out of the public view and rendering their testimony under oath lost to the causes of the truth, justice and history.

2) As can be seen from the above sentences, the German defendants received longer terms of imprisonment (about one-third longer) than the Alsatians.
 
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And who were the Nazi political party GERMANS
And who are also germans our royal family ........not all germans were nazis they came to power largely because of the recession in the 1930's we came close to similar politics here and many of our politicians at the time respected theit aceivements pre ww2. The lesson I think is we all need to be wary of racism and nationalism and where it can lead.
 

MattR

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No..

but the Nazi party were voted into power.. and they could not have committed the atrocities or conducted ethnic cleaning on an industrial scale without the knowledge and consent of millions of ordinary Germans..

Party Votes % Seats +/–
National Socialist German Workers Party
votes: 17,277,180
percentage: 43.91
seats: 288 +92

German federal election, March 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933


So, in 1933.less than half of the German voters votes for Hitler's party and many political adversaries were imprisoned leading up to WW2 but you blame all Germans for the Nazi atrocities?

Will all Americans be regarded as supporting Trump if he gets into power?

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MattR

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where did you read that ?

please stick to the facts..

I said

could not have committed the atrocities or conducted ethnic cleaning on an industrial scale without the knowledge and consent of millions of ordinary Germans..

I was responding to the implied accusation that all Germans were complicit in the Nazi machine written before your comments.

Yes, millions of Germans were involved but millions were not or were forced to participate.

I don't think that tarring all nationals with the same brush as their leader is right but it seems to happen quite often.
 

scotjimland

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Germans knew of Holocaust horror about death camps
Details of deaths of Jews and other groups in concentration camps were well publicised
The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.
They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

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MattR

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Germans knew of Holocaust horror about death camps
Details of deaths of Jews and other groups in concentration camps were well publicised
The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.
They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

Knowing about the camps and actively supporting them are two different things. Can you find proof that every German supported the war or the extermination Jews?
 

scotjimland

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Can you find proof that every German supported the war or the extermination Jews?

of course not

you said .. Does the BNP represent everyone who is British or does the Communist Party represent us all?

of course not

I pointed out that the Nazis were a democratically elected government .. with 43 % of the vote ..not some fringe party .. like the BNP

Our present government were voted for by 11,300,109 .... 36.8% of the voters.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015

a smaller mandate than Hitler enjoyed.

votes: 17,277,180 percentage: 43.91%
 

MattR

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of course not

you said .. Does the BNP represent everyone who is British or does the Communist Party represent us all?

of course not

I pointed out that the Nazis were a democratically elected government .. with 43 % of the vote ..not some fringe party .. like the BNP

Our present government were voted for by 11,300,109 .... 36.8% of the voters.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015

a smaller mandate than Hitler enjoyed.

votes: 17,277,180 percentage: 43.91%

I was responding to DLT who equated Nazis to Germans. Thanks to your stats, I can quote that 63.2% of German voters did not vote for Hitler. Let's not tar all by the actions of a minority.

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