Cars on A-frames in the EU - Fined or not? (1 Viewer)

[Minxy]

I don't have any problem with those who wish to tow using an A-frame, I personally have no intention, or need, to do this either in the UK or abroad, however there are a LOT of others who do so I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it all so that they can be as 'educated' about what the real situation is as much as is possible, hence this thread.

There are various threads about towing a car with an A-frame and it seems that in the UK it is 'allowed' as it has not yet been challenged in court as to it's legality one way or another, there are various views on whether the A-frame and lighting/braking system turn it into a 'trailer' in it's own right or whether it still remains a car which is being towed.

However, there is a lot of debate about whether or not this is permitted abroad. There are those who claim that it IS due to various EU wide regs/laws etc that say it should be 'accepted' as legal if it is legal in its 'home' country (see para two), then there are those who claim it isn't due to each individual country's laws banning the towing of one vehicle with another (which is not made for that specific purpose) regardless of what the 'home' country 'rules' are.

I don't particularly want to start yet another debate about the above, however it would be useful to find out the real situation by hearing details from those who have been stopped within the last 5 years when towing with an A-frame. It would be useful to know:

• in which country it took place, where (town/motorway/smaller road etc) and when
• what reason did the driver give for using the A-frame, eg car broken down, turns it into a 'trailer', legal in the UK etc
• were they made to unhitch and drive the second vehicle and were fined as well
• were they made to unhitch and drive the second vehicle but without a fine being imposed
• were they permitted to carry on their way towing without being fined
• if a fine was imposed has anyone subsequently challenged it and what was the outcome - was the fine rescinded and refunded, or was the fine was upheld?

So can we have actual facts from anyone who has experienced this - also, if anyone else has first hand knowledge that it has happened to someone they know and the final outcome that would be good too, but please NO "my mate, knows of a man with a one-legged dog who was in X country a decade ago and got fined".

Please lets try to keep this thread factual so that it can be used to 'inform' those who use A-frames about the 'possible' scenarios they may find themselves in.

 

[vicwo]

Just arrived in Langres in the middle of France. French police right up my ass going through toll. Not interested in my a-frame. Obviously they haven't read this forum that would give them vital information about French law.

 

[hilldweller]

ATTENTION ATTENTION - A-FRAME ALERT - PLEASE MOVE IN AN ORDERLY FASHION TO THE NEAREST EXIT AND TAKE COVER UNTIL THIS ALERT IS OVER.

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[Jaws]

Was with some one two years ago who got pulled and fined in Spain if that is any help
We met the couple at a lunch stop and ended up doing the next leg together..

 

[PeteH]

Me, 3 Times in Spain. Twice in 07 once in 08. Always on Motorways, Always on a Sunday, and always 2 Guardia on Motorcycles!!.

All 3 times was "let off", after a lecture ( I assume, as my Spanish is (still) virtually none existent) inspection of my "papers" and a good look round the R-V. I think 2 things helped. One, the fact that my wife is disabled and cannot drive a manual car. Two, I shrugged my shoulders a lot and made noises about having to abandon the car at the roadside as no one could drive it. Don`t know if that was a factor?. One reason to Toad scruffy old Punto`s not worth a bean!.

Anyway the upshot was, that was a catalyst in our decision to try R-V`ing in the USA. Which we did ("A" framing) on and off, for some 5 years and over 15K miles!.

Pete

 

[PeteH]

ATTENTION ATTENTION - A-FRAME ALERT - PLEASE MOVE IN AN ORDERLY FASHION TO THE NEAREST EXIT AND TAKE COVER UNTIL THIS ALERT IS OVER.

Gassing any minute now???

Pete

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[Snowbird]

Gassing any minute now???

Pete

Followed by grey water dumping

 

[big map]

I have told you on the other thread of our experiences within the last few years including copies of the notice and fine in Germany and being waved on our merry way in France. Live and let live.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

It makes real sense to actually research the situation about these things, I have read letters in magazines where people have personally been stopped and fined on the spot and made to drive on separately. These all seem to have happened the same way stoped by two policemen and told it was illegal told to pay OR confiscation and a courtcase. This might be bullying police tactics or even a scam by rogues trying to make money on the side with FOREIGN INNOCENTS ABROAD. It was happening here a while ago with false police stopping driver from abroad who do not know what the police actually were.
However I have also read in the police information for foreign driver(in English) that it is illegal and the process that would be followed, this was on one of the Spanish Authorities websites for drivers.
Whatever it is I would not chance going with one to Spain. Too big a chance of losing all or even a large amount of money.

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[Minxy]

I have told you on the other thread of our experiences within the last few years including copies of the notice and fine in Germany and being waved on our merry way in France. Live and let live.

Yes, I'm just trying to encourage the info to be posted in one 'easy to digest' thread for those who need to know the situation before their travels.

 

[Larrynwin]

​

 

[big map]

If you don't want to use an a-frame don't do it. If you want to use an a-frame do it. Personal choice.

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[big map]

If you want a dog get one. If you don't want a dog don't have one. Personal choice.

 

[big map]

If you want an rv buy one. If you don't want an rv don't buy one. Personal choice.

 

[big map]

If you want to overnight in an aire do so. If you don't want to overnight in an aire don't do it. Personal choice.

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[Minxy]

I'm not sure why a thread, which I started with the best of intentions to get genuine and sensible advice for others regarding the likelihood of being 'pulled' for using an A-frame is being perpetuated by daft posts!

At least no-one can say I didn't try to gather useful info ...

 

[Minxy]

​

Not sure if that's meant for me or not, if it IS you are wrong - please read my OP and other ones too.

 

[icantremember]

Oh dear! Another boring thread.

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[DBK]

I'm not sure why a thread, which I started with the best of intentions to get genuine and sensible advice for others regarding the likelihood of being 'pulled' for using an A-frame is being perpetuated by daft posts!

At least no-one can say I didn't try to gather useful info ...

Does that mean I can post my picture now?

 

[vwalan]

if you dont mind arguing with the police and are prepared to go to a court and argue your case , then use an a frame . if not then dont . uk folk have had money returned by spanish courts .
i was stopped this year being towed by a mate in his tryuck . we were using a solid bar tow pole ,yeoolow light on my truck flashing . plus hazard lights . we explained i had a fuel problem and wetre originaly parked in a national park car park and didnmt want to spill any diesel in the park. . we had contacted a local garage about looking at the truck . i also had my old business card that said i did recovery in uk . we pretended not to know it was not correct to tow in spain . thety escorted us to the industrial estate we were heading to. no probs . it was a saturday . as it was i fixed it that day myself guardia can be ok . ,
remember this was a truck pulling a mini artic set up.

 

[Snowbird]

To answer the OP question.
Yes, I have Aframed throughout Europe including Spain for many years.

No, I have never been pulled over for using an Aframe.

No, I have never been fined for using an Aframe.

Yes, I do personally know people that have been fined for using an Aframe in Spain.

No, I do not Aframe now as it has been made perfectly clear to me that although some take a chance in Spain, its against there laws, but that is entirely there choice.

Yes, there is a good chance that if you Aframe in the Basque, Barcelona or Alicante regions of Spain you will get pulled over for using an Aframe.

Yes, if you were involved in any form of accident whilst using an Aframe in Spain regardless of who was at fault, there is a good chance you will go to prison. I now consider myself to old for doing time in any prison, least of all a Spanish one.

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[bigtwin]

Hi Mel,

Not a bad idea to find out who has had a problem with the use of A Frames (to ascertain if people do actually get stopped/fined), however for it to be really helpful, you also need to understand the overall population of users.

If we have only 1 A-Frame user and they get stopped on a single trip/journey then this would suggest that the likelihood of being stopped is 100%.

If they are stopped only once having undertaken two trips then the likelihood is only 50%.

If there are 100 users (single trip each) and, say, two get stopped, then the likelihood is 2%.

Evidence would suggest that people have been stopped, so the question becomes one of likelihood.

For the record, I've A-framed in France for a single trip/year for the past four years (covering 1200 miles /trip) and have never had a problem.
As an aside, in recent years I have seen an increase in the number of French registered Motorhomes with Toads (almost a pun there!).

Ian

 

[Minxy]

@bigtwin I agree, but unless more people are willing to give their own, or others, confirmed experiences of being stopped and the what for/when/where etc it is difficult to get any idea at all.

Thanks to those that have taken this thread seriously ...





to those that haven't ...




all I can do is ...

 

[PeteH]

@bigtwin I agree, but unless more people are willing to give their own, or others, confirmed experiences of being stopped and the what for/when/where etc it is difficult to get any idea at all.

Thanks to those that have taken this thread seriously ...





to those that haven't ...




all I can do is ...

Well, I gave you the "bare" facts!.

But then I suppose this is "FUN"?. As the lady said yesterday on another thread, "no silly comments". On a Sunday? after several hours and lunch in the pub.? "Silly" is going to happen!.

Keep up the good work lass!!. never mind us Nutters!.

Pete

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[scotjimland]

Does it matter what anyone on here thinks.. does it matter what the EU law is, does it matter what the UK law is .. does it matter how many have been fined.. or how many have gotten away with it ... ?

No.. not a jot.

The only thing that matters is what the Guardia Civil have been instructed and trained to do.. which is :

identify an A frame, stop, fine and order to un-hitch
they even have a booklet showing them how to identify an A frame..

INSTRUCTION 08/V-74.- Motorhome towing a Car. Broken Link Removed

Camper van legislation Spain.

Broken Link Removed

 

[Judge Mental]

I don't have any problem with those who wish to tow using an A-frame, I personally have no intention, or need, to do this either in the UK or abroad, however there are a LOT of others who do so I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it all so that they can be as 'educated' about what the real situation is as much as is possible, hence this thread.

There are various threads about towing a car with an A-frame and it seems that in the UK it is 'allowed' as it has not yet been challenged in court as to it's legality one way or another, there are various views on whether the A-frame and lighting/braking system turn it into a 'trailer' in it's own right or whether it still remains a car which is being towed.

However, there is a lot of debate about whether or not this is permitted abroad. There are those who claim that it IS due to various EU wide regs/laws etc that say it should be 'accepted' as legal if it is legal in its 'home' country (see para two), then there are those who claim it isn't due to each individual country's laws banning the towing of one vehicle with another (which is not made for that specific purpose) regardless of what the 'home' country 'rules' are.

I don't particularly want to start yet another debate about the above, however it would be useful to find out the real situation by hearing details from those who have been stopped within the last 5 years when towing with an A-frame. It would be useful to know:

• in which country it took place, where (town/motorway/smaller road etc) and when
• what reason did the driver give for using the A-frame, eg car broken down, turns it into a 'trailer', legal in the UK etc
• were they made to unhitch and drive the second vehicle and were fined as well
• were they made to unhitch and drive the second vehicle but without a fine being imposed
• were they permitted to carry on their way towing without being fined
• if a fine was imposed has anyone subsequently challenged it and what was the outcome - was the fine rescinded and refunded, or was the fine was upheld?

So can we have actual facts from anyone who has experienced this - also, if anyone else has first hand knowledge that it has happened to someone they know and the final outcome that would be good too, but please NO "my mate, knows of a man with a one-legged dog who was in X country a decade ago and got fined".

Please lets try to keep this thread factual so that it can be used to 'inform' those who use A-frames about the 'possible' scenarios they may find themselves in.

Mel wasting your time.....sides are drawn with one side of this situation in denial. I see it as nonsense because if A frame use was legally defined in statute it would be totally legal all over the EU and you would have the paperwork to support this use to stick under the noses of ignorent Spanish police. But it's not so you will never get an understanding from users who come up with any flimsy excuse to justify the unjustifiable. What I dont get is the resistidence of being squeaky clean by using a trailer....

Please fans please don't quote me, not in the slightest bit interstead! lol

 

[ludo]

Does it matter what anyone on here thinks.. does it matter what the EU law is, does it matter what the UK law is .. does it matter how many have been fined.. or how many have gotten away with it ... ?

No.. not a jot.

The only thing that matters is what the Guardia Civil have been instructed and trained to do.. which is :

identify an A frame, stop, fine and order to un-hitch
they even have a booklet showing them how to identify an A frame..

INSTRUCTION 08/V-74.- Motorhome towing a Car. Broken Link Removed

Camper van legislation Spain.

Broken Link Removed

Found the information contained in Broken Link Removed interesting.

However, is the highlighted, in blue, section correct? I certainly am not aware that carrying a spare wheel, of any kind, is a legal requirement in Spain.

1. EQUIPMENT

Motorhomes have to carry equipment in accordance with Annex XII of the Reglamento General de Vehículo, as follows: A set of light bulbs and indispensable tools for changing the bulbs, two portable warning triangles, a spare wheel or temporary wheel and the tools to change wheels or alternative system for changing them, providing sufficient guarantees for vehicle mobility.

Likewise, when the vehicle occupants leave the vehicle and occupies the roadway or the shoulder on interurban roads, they should use a certified reflective high visibility vest, according to Royal Decree 1407/1992, of 20 November.

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[scotjimland]

Motorhomes have to carry equipment in accordance with Annex XII of the Reglamento General de Vehículo, as follows: A set of light bulbs and indispensable tools for changing the bulbs, two portable warning triangles, a spare wheel or temporary wheel and the tools to change wheels or alternative system for changing them, providing sufficient guarantees for vehicle mobility.

according to the other site on EU Driving Abroad I just posted .. yes ..
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/going_abroad/spain/other_en.htm

Safety equipment for cars Spare wheel and tools for fitting it
2 portable warning triangles
Reflective vest
Buses and large commercial vehicles: fire extinguisher
Use of wheel chains mandatory in heavy snow.

 

[vwalan]

also vehicles over 3.5ton if parked on a slope have wedges put under the wheels .
all explained in the 08/v 74 regs .
the regs were put on here by momo years ago.
we in fact had them well before most of the guardia civil had even seen them .
i even had the guardia civil office in aguilas ring the interiour ministers office once after being taken in for camping when i was parking . they had never seen the 08/v 74 regs . i had a copy and definately shoved it in their faces . got released with an apology.

 

[Snowbird]

also vehicles over 3.5ton if parked on a slope have wedges put under the wheels .
all explained in the 08/v 74 regs .
the regs were put on here by momo years ago.
we in fact had them well before most of the guardia civil had even seen them .
i even had the guardia civil office in aguilas ring the interiour ministers office once after being taken in for camping when i was parking . they had never seen the 08/v 74 regs . i had a copy and definately shoved it in their faces . got released with an apology.

Where is Momo, not seen her on here for ages. hope she is well.

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