Smart car towing (1 Viewer)

Mark5204

Free Member
Jan 20, 2015
229
60
Bristol
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34,824
MH
Swift
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Newbie
Hi all. Recently bought a smart car and looking at getting a A Frame so we can tow it with our Swift Kontiki 645. Looking for any advise from you guys as never done this before. Also any suggestions on A Frame suppliers and Fitters you may know of within a reasonable distance of Bristol. Any advise at all greatly appreciated.
 
Sep 5, 2013
92
106
Dordogne, france
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27,942
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Rapido 696FF
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since 2013
Hi Mark,
Just a quick question, why an A frame? We towed our Smart car behind our Kon Tiki 669 on a Smart Car trailer.
Takes 5 mins to load and unload, no wear and tear on the car's running gear, no extra's having all the electrics fitted to the Smart car and you still have a trailer to sell when you finish with the car!
The trailer can be moved with the car aboard, and its perfectly balanced design means you can drive on and off without having the trailer connected to the tow car, provided the rear support legs are lowered.
Which leads me to another point................we have a Brian James Bantam Smart car trailer for sale..... if you are interested please private message me :)
Best wishes
Jim
 
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Mark5204

Mark5204

Free Member
Jan 20, 2015
229
60
Bristol
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34,824
MH
Swift
Exp
Newbie
Hi Mark,
Just a quick question, why an A frame? We towed our Smart car behind our Kon Tiki 669 on a Smart Car trailer.
Takes 5 mins to load and unload, no wear and tear on the car's running gear, no extra's having all the electrics fitted to the Smart car and you still have a trailer to sell when you finish with the car!
The trailer can be moved with the car aboard, and its perfectly balanced design means you can drive on and off without having the trailer connected to the tow car, provided the rear support legs are lowered.
Which leads me to another point................we have a Brian James Bantam Smart car trailer for sale..... if you are interested please private message me :)
Best wishes
Jim

Hi Jim

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

The main reason for thinking A Frame is my concern on where I could store a trailer.

I fully accept that a trailer is a better way forward mate but also the ones I have seen for sale have been very expensive mate.

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vicwo

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Mar 18, 2016
62
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since 1998
Hi Mark. I have done the Smart on a trailer. It towed very well but not as easy as a a-frame overall . Unfortunately I had to sell my smart after 10 years towing. I went for a small Suzuki still on a frame because I needed more seats. Tunnel to France with A-frame tomorrow plus bars2towcars A-frame. Brilliant


.
 
Aug 6, 2013
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Hi Mark. I have done the Smart on a trailer. It towed very well but not as easy as a a-frame overall . Unfortunately I had to sell my smart after 10 years towing. I went for a small Suzuki still on a frame because I needed more seats. Tunnel to France with A-frame tomorrow plus bars2towcars A-frame. Brilliant


.
Not France ........... with an A frame :reel::imoutahere:.
 
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Mark5204

Mark5204

Free Member
Jan 20, 2015
229
60
Bristol
Funster No
34,824
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Swift
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Newbie
Hi Mark. I have done the Smart on a trailer. It towed very well but not as easy as a a-frame overall . Unfortunately I had to sell my smart after 10 years towing. I went for a small Suzuki still on a frame because I needed more seats. Tunnel to France with A-frame tomorrow plus bars2towcars A-frame. Brilliant


.
Hi Mate. Thank you for your reply. France sounds great but I was under the impression that A frames were a no no in other parts of Europe, but I am probably wrong.
I am looking at prices etc for A frames and fitting at the moment.

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JFD

Apr 9, 2015
392
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Crawley Down, West Sussex, UK
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Pilote Aventura G730
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since 2014!
Hi, just curious: When you fit an A frame, I presume that some re-inforcement is needed at the front of the car. What does that do to the front 'crumple zone' that the car makers are at such pains to create? Or do you tow the car backwards?
 

TheBig1

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Nov 27, 2011
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you would expect the fitting of a front towbar to make the front stronger but certain cars are so badly made with weak steel that the metal deforms and tears when the car is towed.
 

Charlie

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We had Caratow supply and fit our Frame to our car a Toyota IQ.

Our one is the simple mechanical type. I preferred this as if any problems occur with it I can sort it. I actually assisted in the fitting so now I know not only exactly how it works but how to remove it all from the car and re fit it to another car if ever I choose to do so. To do this would require another "Car" section kit but they are not expensive.

Do not worry about the car being damaged . This particular company's framework is massively strong It is very well engineered and would in most cases strengthen the front end of the car.







Total cost all in including a £40 charge for the company to come to our house and fit the kit was £1180.

Do not listen to all the nonsense about the legality's of towing with an A frame. Its all down to those who do not study the real and actual facts. If you buy an A frame from Caratow or any of the leading supplier fitters you will get a certificate on conformity. I have translated this and copied and pasted it onto several A4 papers in several languages. So if the is a question asked in any country I visit I can select the paper and hand it over.

If you want any further info just PM me. Im happy to chat on the phone if it helps and can maybe assist with dispelling some of the myths surrounding A frames and their use,

I will NOT be drawn into another bun fight over the legalities here.

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Charlie

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Hi, just curious: When you fit an A frame, I presume that some re-inforcement is needed at the front of the car. What does that do to the front 'crumple zone' that the car makers are at such pains to create? Or do you tow the car backwards?

Quality kits like Caratow have over engineered framework. They use where possible the existing mounting points on the car where the bumpers are mounted. This is the strongest point on the front of any car.

Caratow frames do NOT use the existing tow point where the standard tow eye goes. The frame work is designed in a way it gives two additional mounting points for the two tow eyes. In doing this it enables the fitting of the mounting points to be lower. This in turn means we do NOT have to cut holes in the front bumper of the car. It all comes neatly out of the lower grill. This is the same on any car they fit not just the Toyota IQ .

The claim is the crumple zone is unaffected as the same mounting points are used as for the bumper bar that sits behind what we now call bumpers which are just big plastic mouldings on our cars. Not entirely sure I buy into that. But think of it this way. If we fit a towbar to our vans. An A frame kit to our cars. Or tow a car on a trailer. We alter the vehicles and or change the handling characteristics . This happens no matter what.

Has anyone ever seen what happens when a car goes into the back of another car that has a tow bar fitted ? The car that runs in usually gets more damage but the car with the tow bar gets very little ! I was driving a van once when a car ran into the back at traffic lights. The car that ran in was buggered. The van was hardly damaged at all. Says something that does.

Picture shows where the frame or part of the frame mounts to the strongest part of the car.

Those 4 substantial bolts go into the chassis leg. As I say extremely strong.

 
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vicwo

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Mar 18, 2016
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Rapido 866f
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since 1998
Charlie you are spot on. I have towed all over France for weeks on end over 10 years. Not a problem. If I get stopped what are they going to do ? Shoot me ? Life is to be enjoyed. Off to France this morning. If I get put in jail please send a file. We do worry on this subject. I'm surprised some on here dare get out of bed. Come on you lovely sunshine
 
Aug 18, 2011
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Hi Mark. I have done the Smart on a trailer. It towed very well but not as easy as a a-frame overall . Unfortunately I had to sell my smart after 10 years towing. I went for a small Suzuki still on a frame because I needed more seats. Tunnel to France with A-frame tomorrow plus bars2towcars A-frame. Brilliant


.
They are prosecuting A Frame users in France now. MMM this month..Sorry,,,BUSBY.

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Charlie

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Charlie you are spot on. I have towed all over France for weeks on end over 10 years. Not a problem. If I get stopped what are they going to do ? Shoot me ? Life is to be enjoyed. Off to France this morning. If I get put in jail please send a file. We do worry on this subject. I'm surprised some on here dare get out of bed. Come on you lovely sunshine

Feel free to PM me. I will send you the conformity certificates if you like.

I also have the print offs of two cases where people got checked and fined in Spain. They appealed the decisions and the fines were overturned. These two cases set what I believe are called precedence's.( My daughter who is a solicitor found these for me) and precedence's are hard to argue with. In other words take a copy of this with you to hand over to the police IF you ever get stopped.

Shoot you ? Well some would have you believe you would have boiling oil poured over you first. But on the negative side if you are one of the extremely rare cases that do get a pull in Spain they may bankrupt you with the simply massive 40 Euro fine :LOL::LOL:

Have a brilliant holiday mate !
 

TheBig1

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some people would believe anyone selling magic beans and the piece of magic paper that they offer to legitimise what they are selling. it doesnt give immunity to prosecution even if you offer it to the police officer that pulls you over or even from the judge in court
 

Jaws

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Charlie you are spot on. I have towed all over France for weeks on end over 10 years. Not a problem. If I get stopped what are they going to do ? Shoot me ? Life is to be enjoyed. Off to France this morning. If I get put in jail please send a file. We do worry on this subject. I'm surprised some on here dare get out of bed. Come on you lovely sunshine

Really ?
I would not do it any more mate..

Sorry, cannot find an English translation but it is better to come straight from the mouth any way..

http://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/a...ee-par-le-camping-car-il-faut-y-renoncer.html

Basically it says that in answer to a question in the French Parliament that "A" Frames are now illegal - no ifs or buts

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Aug 18, 2014
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We had Caratow supply and fit our Frame to our car a Toyota IQ.



Do not worry about the car being damaged . This particular company's framework is massively strong It is very well engineered and would in most cases strengthen the front end of the car.






Do not listen to all the nonsense about the legality's of towing with an A frame. Its all down to those who do not study the real and actual facts. If you buy an A frame from Caratow or any of the leading supplier fitters you will get a certificate on conformity. I have translated this and copied and pasted it onto several A4 papers in several languages. So if the is a question asked in any country I visit I can select the paper and hand it over.



I will NOT be drawn into another bun fight over the legalities here.

Strengthening the front is wonderful for the pedestrian crumple zone.

Feel free to PM me. I will send you the conformity certificates if you like.

I also have the print offs of two cases where people got checked and fined in Spain. They appealed the decisions and the fines were overturned. These two cases set what I believe are called precedence's.( My daughter who is a solicitor found these for me) and precedence's are hard to argue with. In other words take a copy of this with you to hand over to the police IF you ever get stopped.

!
please don't post " conformity certificates" They may call them that but they certainly aren't unless the vehicle has been crash tested after the modifications & they are supplied by the manufacturer. They are just the companies interpretation of how they consider they 'comply' , with the regulations.
I might as well be writing them .

You don't get fined in Spain for "A frame usage " but for illegally recovering a vehicle from the road using an illegal method.= 600€ fine + if you wish to appeal the fine under the "Ley de Mordaza"
( Known colloquially as the 'citizen gagging law') which was introduced to prevent people who were arrested/fined from appealing fines implemented; by making you deposit a surety of 900€ to appeal ANY fine. This includes all & any motoring offences.
 

Minxy

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I also have the print offs of two cases where people got checked and fined in Spain. They appealed the decisions and the fines were overturned. These two cases set what I believe are called precedence's.( My daughter who is a solicitor found these for me) and precedence's are hard to argue with. In other words take a copy of this with you to hand over to the police IF you ever get stopped.
That's interesting Charlie, can you tell us where the details are so we can all have a shuftie at the cases in question?

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scotjimland

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A-Frames are not allowed in Spain,

If you have a motorhome and you want to carry your car to Spain, you have to be aware that A-Frames are forbidden in Spain, so you will need a trailer to carry your car.


Broken Link Removed

INSTRUCTION 08/V-74.- Motorhome towing a Car.




    • TRANSPORT OF AUXILIARY VEHICLES
Very often, motorhomes carry auxiliary vehicles, usually bicycles, a moped or small motorcycle. This practice is authorized provided an approved bicycle rack or a platform for this purpose is used and, when projecting out from the usual characteristics of the motorhome, the following requirements as provided in Article 15 of the Reglamento General de Circulación are met.

Protruding from motorhome at the back, up to 10% of its length and if one vehicle (indivisible load), 15%. That all appropriate precautions are taken to prevent damage or danger to other users of public roads and should have extremities protected to lessen the effects of a possible friction or shock.

The protrusion must be visibly protected by the use of a V-20 sign as per Article 173 and whose characteristics are set out in Annex XI of the Reglamento General de Vehículos. This sign is placed at the rear end of the load so that it is constantly perpendicular to the vehicle axis.

After frequent questions regarding the possibility of a motorhome towing a car, this possibility is prohibited in Article 9.3 of the Reglamento General de Vehículos which prohibits the movement of a motor vehicle towing another, unless there is an immediate risk of damage or injury and it cannot be dragged by another vehicle specifically designed for that purpose, in which case it is allowed only to the nearest place where it will not hinder traffic movement and provided that it is not on a motorway.

Notwithstanding the points already mentioned, a combination of vehicles consisting of a motor and a trailer or semitrailer on which another vehicle can be transported is permitted if the set qualifies for driving on public roads and is approved to Directives 70/156/CEE and 94/20/CEE and they do not exceed the maximum length allowed for these sets which is 18.75 meters and 16.50 meters in the case of a semi-trailer.



You can find more information about Instruction 08/V-74 directly from the website, Broken Link Removed

Remember to follow N332 on Facebook for daily updates and news relating to Broken Link Removed, just search for “N332”.
 

Minxy

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I haven't seen the certificates/proof provided by the a-frame company so can only guess that the reason they claim the a-frame is legal to use in the EU is because it 'turns' the car into a trailer and therefore you're not towing a car any more so the fine isn't valid ... I can't say that I agree with this 'definition' but that's my thought on the 2 cases Charlie has cited.
 

Charlie

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Strengthening the front is wonderful for the pedestrian crumple zone.


please don't post " conformity certificates" They may call them that but they certainly aren't unless the vehicle has been crash tested after the modifications & they are supplied by the manufacturer. They are just the companies interpretation of how they consider they 'comply' , with the regulations.
I might as well be writing them .

You don't get fined in Spain for "A frame usage " but for illegally recovering a vehicle from the road using an illegal method.= 600€ fine + if you wish to appeal the fine under the "Ley de Mordaza"
( Known colloquially as the 'citizen gagging law') which was introduced to prevent people who were arrested/fined from appealing fines implemented; by making you deposit a surety of 900€ to appeal ANY fine. This includes all & any motoring offences.

The pedestrian crumple zone pads are re installed in front of the car towing frame.

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scotjimland

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Here we go again ohhhh ohhhhh ohhh . That was a song that was ?

Surely all the haters don't think I actually care ???

If aimed at me then you are wrong..

I don't hate A frames or for that matter anyone who uses one.. I had one myself..

I was merely pointing to the law in Spain..

it's provided for information.. not to start a flame war ..
 
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To be fair to @Charlie we have been in Spain the last three months with the car and trailer however we met a couple only a couple of days ago with their car on an A frame been down the same way for winter and they have not had any problems from the police at all that's not to say they won't!
At the end of the day you pays your money and takes your chance.

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Minxy

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Here we go again ohhhh ohhhhh ohhh . That was a song that was ?

Surely all the haters don't think I actually care ???
Not a hater at all, if there is a way that those who get fined in Spain can get the fine rescinded then that is of interest ... are you able to supply the details I asked about Charlie?
 

scotjimland

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From N332 Driving In Spain

  • A group of Police Officers post all related to Traffic subjects and other interesting police matters;
    "We put you on the right side of the road".
  • Long description
    We are a group of Spanish Traffic Police Officers who have decided to create this site to inform all expats and tourist who visit Spain about the Spanish Traffic Law. We think it is unfair to fine them for breaking rules they did not know it

https://www.facebook.com/DrivingSpain/?fref=nf

This is what the Cardia Civil have to say about EU and Spanish driving law..

"Under Spanish Law it is unlawful to do this..... but under EU Law is legal, so I can do it."

1º. There is no an official European Traffic Law.

2º. Each country has its own Traffic Laws.

3º. National laws have priority over laws from Europe. European countries are not forced to follow the regulations passed in the European Parliament. It is advisable, not mandatory.

Then... please have a look on the Traffic Law of the country you are going to visit if you have any doubts.

Another huge error ...

Every day, many foreigners are fined because they apply this rule when they drive...

" If it is LEGAL in my own country, it is LEGAL in Spain. "

Of course NOT.

Common Error: Never think that the traffic rules in your country are always applied in the other. wink emoticon

Could you say what rules applied in Spain are different in your country?

Example:

A-frames, in Spain

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Charlie

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If aimed at me then you are wrong..

I don't hate A frames or for that matter anyone who uses one.. I had one myself..

I was merely pointing to the law in Spain..

it's provided for information.. not to start a flame war ..


Jim. Trust me none of my comments were aimed at your good self OR anyone in particular. After all it is clear to me how easy it is to break rule 1 of the forum rules.

Tell you what though..... See me I'm not a particularly clever individual. Dyslexic as hell so not academic in any way. That aside I have started and run 3 very successful businesses in my working life and still run one of them today. Sold the other two.. So by no means thick.

But help me my friend with an answer to a question I cannot work out. ? Please ??

Why do people who don't like. Or disagree. With the use of Aframes have such a problem with the many that do ?? Or the use of some of these devices ? I for some silly reason hate smoking. Yet I do not and would not openly have a pop at smokers or their cigarettes or how they spend their money ..

There are many here who when these debates come up say nowt as they do not want to get into the arguments. I prefer to call them debates but that's just me ..

See me again..... If I can help some body with any thing. Doesn't matter what it is why or where I will freely give my time and effort.

If I cant help or if I disagree I try though not always successful to apply a simple rule. Say something nice or say nothing at all (y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)
 
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scotjimland

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Why do people who don't like. Or disagree. With the use of Aframes have such a problem with the many that do ??

no idea Charlie.. need to ask them ..

like those who hate wild campers, freeloaders, grey water dumpers, genies, or any of a hundred other practices they don't agree with..

me ? .. 'live and let live' ... provided it's not interfering or disturbing my please and quiet

do A frames make a lot of noise.. ? then fine by me.. carry on..

those caught in Spain are the ones that will be squeeling like stuffed pigs when handed a fine and told to un-hitch.. :LOL:

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