Wiring help! (1 Viewer)

Catfish

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Hello people of the internet!

I'm in the early stages of converting my LWB High Top LDV Maxus into a stealth camper. I'm trying to complete a wiring diagram but I am a complete novice. I have never converted a camper before and I have minimal experience with wiring on this scale so I'm looking (more begging) for some help and guidance. I have attached the diagram I came up with, but here is a description of the setup.

I plan to run a cable from the starter battery (connected to the alternator) through a split charge relay and a fuse and to the leisure battery. This is so the leisure battery can gain charge from the alternator. I also plan on running a line from two solar panels (2 x 150w) to the leisure battery through solar controllers, so that the solar panels do not over charge the batteries and cause damage. This will be run through the same line as the power coming from the alternator and run through the same fuse. (unsure of what fuse I would need for this, any recommendations are welcome).
Then for the means of a hook up I plan on using a 12V battery charger with a built in power controller (to prevent over charge) which can be connected to the mains and will be wired directly to the leisure battery terminals.

Then run a cable from the + terminal of the leisure battery through a consumer unit (6a trip switch) which will feed directly to low power LED lights, the hob ignition and to a Sine Wave 12V to 240V power inverter. The cable will then run from the inverter, through the consumer unit (32a trip switch) and lead to the sockets for the appliances.

I would like to also have a battery power monitoring gauge but I have no idea where to wiring it into (and I can't find one!). Do I just run it directly off the battery terminals?

Furthermore, I plan on having 2 leisure batteries wired in parallel to keep them at 12V.
Please advice me as best you can, this is my first time doing anything like this. All help is welcome.
 

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You don't need a separate solar controller for each panel. A single controller of 20A-30A will do the trick. You will need thickish cables though so depending on your layout it may be best to connect the output directly to the batteries. You will need an in line fuse between the panels and the controller which will also allow the panels to be disconnected if you're working on the electrics.
If you are not skilled in vehicle electrics I would suggest you involve someone who is, it won't be very cost effective if it catches fire.

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Khizzie

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You don't need a separate solar controller for each panel. A single controller of 20A-30A will do the trick. You will need thickish cables though so depending on your layout it may be best to connect the output directly to the batteries. You will need an in line fuse between the panels and the controller which will also allow the panels to be disconnected if you're working on the electrics.
If you are not skilled in vehicle electrics I would suggest you involve someone who is, it won't be very cost effective if it catches fire.

Good suggestion ..in fact the best advice .
 
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I would like to also have a battery power monitoring gauge but I have no idea where to wiring it into (and I can't find one!). Do I just run it directly off the battery terminals?

I would buy one of these - Broken Link Removed

It will monitor your voltages and if you wire the shunt into the lead to the domestic battery's it will tell you the amps in and out.

AmmeterShuntWiring.jpg


I would keep the solar panels completely separate with this type of kit.

Broken Link Removed

I also fitted one of these, which could be also useful for other applications.There are other sizes.

Broken Link Removed
 
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Catfish

Catfish

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You don't need a separate solar controller for each panel. A single controller of 20A-30A will do the trick. You will need thickish cables though so depending on your layout it may be best to connect the output directly to the batteries. You will need an in line fuse between the panels and the controller which will also allow the panels to be disconnected if you're working on the electrics.
If you are not skilled in vehicle electrics I would suggest you involve someone who is, it won't be very cost effective if it catches fire.

I dont actually know anybody skilled in vehicle electrics who I can ask to be honest!
I like the idea of doing it myself, but I do obviously want me work checking over. Hence why I'm here :)
I'll take on board the suggestion for the solars being separate with the thicker cables and the in line fuse too! Thanks a lot.

Anyy more suggestions are welcome :D

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pappajohn

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Run ALL your 12v wiring using regular automotive fuses of whatever amperage is needed.....DO NOT mix 12vdc and 230vac within the same fusebox/consumer unit

Using a 6a MCB in a 230v consumer unit to protect the 12v LED lights isnt safe.....if it works at all..

You can buy multi-way 12v fuseblocks on eBay for a couple of quid

Use the 230v consumer unit for charger, sockets, fridge etc
Connect the hookup directly to the cons unit and the 230v circuits out of the MCBs
 
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Jan 28, 2008
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heres some basic stuff Broken Link Removed the best place for advice is the sbmcc web site i think you get a few free questions otherwise its money well spent to join
 
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what do you think you need an inverter for? as much as possible its best to run everything on 12v using 240 only for charging and emergencies

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Catfish

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Run ALL your 12v wiring using regular automotive fuses of whatever amperage is needed.....DO NOT mix 12vdc and 230vac within the same fusebox/consumer unit

Using a 6a MCB in a 230v consumer unit to protect the 12v LED lights isnt safe.....if it works at all..

You can buy multi-way 12v fuseblocks on eBay for a couple of quid

Use the 230v consumer unit for charger, sockets, fridge etc
Connect the hookup directly to the cons unit and the 230v circuits out of the MCBs


Sorry, cant you explain this further with less abbreviations and jargon? As I said I'm new to this...
 
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Catfish

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what do you think you need an inverter for? as much as possible its best to run everything on 12v using 240 only for charging and emergencies

I'd be running the inverter for some appliances, TV and phone/laptop charging. Whats the issue with running an inverter? What problems can occur and why do you not advise it?

Thanks :)

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I think it's looked on as not being efficient to start with 12 volts, run it through an inverter to create 240 volts then take it back down to 5 volts usb etc or 12v for a telly, better buying stuff that will run direct from your battery bank. We have a 600 w cheapo inverter but only use it to recharge the bike batteries (36 v).
 
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pappajohn

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Sorry......

What I'm saying is dont mix 230 volt mains electric and 12 volt electric in the same fuse box.....which is what I interpreted as your plan.

run a cable from the + terminal of the leisure battery through a consumer unit (6a trip switch) which will feed directly to low power LED lights, the hob ignition and to a Sine Wave 12V to 240V power inverter. The cable will then run from the inverter, through the consumer unit (32a trip switch) and lead to the sockets for the appliances.

All 12v circuits (from your battery) need car type fuses.
These can be individual fuses or all combined in a central multi fuse unit.

All 230v circuits (from your hookup lead) need a mains fuse box....same as in your house.....with miniature circuit breakers (MCB's)
Use the mains fuse box for your battery charger supply, fridge (if mains powered), 3 pin mains sockets etc
Use the 12v fuses for all 12v circuits.

Inverters.....

Extremely power hungry.
To run a small tv (20 watts) using an inverter may use 40amps of battery power per hour...which is almost half your batteries usable power for an average battery.
To run the same sized tv on 12volts would use less than 2amps per hour.

Running the mains wiring to sockets only needs a 16amp breaker in the consumer unit, not a 32amp.
 
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pappajohn

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Referring back to inverters.....

You say running thrpugh a 6amp breaker to an inverter.

It wont work.
A 200 watt inverter will need a 17 amp fuse between the battery and inverter and the wire will need to be as thick as a pencil depending how long it needs to be.

Motorhome wiring is complex as far as there are two completely seperate circuits (12vdc & 230vac) to consider.

No offense intended but your knowledge of electrics of both types indicates you arent competent to work on either safely.
My best advice is get an auto electrician to do the 12v wiring and a domestic electrician to do the 230v wiring.

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phones laptops and tvs will all run of the 12v circuits with the right adapters a lot of small tvs actually run on 12v and use a transformer when run from the mains
many items will only run on pure sine wave invertors electric toothbrushes being one and some coffee machines
if you have an rv with 6 batteries then yes you can have the home from home experience when your limited to 3.5 tonnes lots of batteries will steal your available payload not to mention your money
run as much on gas or 12volt as you can
 
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wingman

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@Catfish
Please listen to these guys. Your enthusiasm is great and we all love to help BUT, I'm not being OTT when I say that if you get this wrong, at the least, it could mean a fire/loss of your van and worst, electricity is lethal!

I've got half an idea with electrics, but would never attempt this on my own.

There's all sorts of hidden issues, like cable sizes for DC voltage and mixing mains power with 12v. let alone solar and inverters.

Praps you could get an auto electrician from the net, or local yellow pages. You might get a bit of a reduction for doing some of the donkey work for him (like fishing cables).

Mains is a whole different ball game however. I don't think I've ever read on this forum about someone attempting this with such limited knowledge. That's NOT a criticism of you personally. Maybe there's a funster near you who would be willing to help for a few bob?

Best of luck with the project
James
 
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I don't want to pour water on the OPs enthusiasm, ... but

A few observations, acknowledged that some have already been covered.
You can't have 12v and 230v in the same CU
You have 32A MCB supplying the sockets. In the event of a fault, that'll cause fault current discrimination issues with the site supply, which'll have a 16A MCB. Assuming all protective devices are the same type, then the protective device nearest the fault should normally operate first. Cable doesn't count as a "protective device" :whistle:
Inverters - buy a decent "pure sine wave" inverter. Also consider - they are typically only around 90% efficient. Make sure you allow for adequate heat dissipation.
Cable sizing - not difficult, I get away with it most days. However, it has to be done right.
Also make sure you use the right type of cable !! I recently rewired a MH that some halfwit had used twin and earth for the DC circuits (inc solar controller to batteries).
Use the correct type of crimps / connectors / tool for the application. A pair of pliers just doesn't do it !

Personally, I'd recommend you get a professional to do the work. It'll (hopefully) be done correctly (and safely), and shouldn't be that expensive.

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Khizzie

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Stop faffing about and get a professional to do it. ..there are many small companies that do fitting out . I am sure they would do the work as you want ,but safely..
 
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Catfish

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@Catfish
Please listen to these guys. Your enthusiasm is great and we all love to help BUT, I'm not being OTT when I say that if you get this wrong, at the least, it could mean a fire/loss of your van and worst, electricity is lethal!

I've got half an idea with electrics, but would never attempt this on my own.

There's all sorts of hidden issues, like cable sizes for DC voltage and mixing mains power with 12v. let alone solar and inverters.

Praps you could get an auto electrician from the net, or local yellow pages. You might get a bit of a reduction for doing some of the donkey work for him (like fishing cables).

Mains is a whole different ball game however. I don't think I've ever read on this forum about someone attempting this with such limited knowledge. That's NOT a criticism of you personally. Maybe there's a funster near you who would be willing to help for a few bob?

Best of luck with the project
James


Thanks for putting things so kindly (unlike some others).
I am obviously planning on getting things checked over, of course. I didn't come here to be slated, I came for advice. I would at least like an idea of how things work seen as I am converting the van myself, I would like to do as much as possible and learn along the way. I would also like to at least have something for the electrician to look over, not just ask him to 'do everything'. I want to have a basic understanding of how my own van runs and works. And yes, i do plan on getting my diagram looked over by a pro, I'm just struggling to find one at the moment.
In the mean time, I would still like to learn and do some planning and not just be told 'no' or to 'stop faffing about', i don't think thats constructive at all.
You have to start somewhere, guys. This is a motorhome forum, not 4Chan.

I've done a little more research and taken on board what some of you have suggested, which lead me to come up with this new wiring diagram.
Please let me know what you think.

Thanks
 

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With all due respect, no one is slating you - just advising, and hopefully making sure you don't make an expensive and / or dangerous mistake ..

... like ...

Your new SLD is better, but:
1. You need to parallel the leisure batteries properly. Not use the chassis to parallel the the negative side, as you've shown.
2. You can't take raw mains and the output of the inverter into the CU - they'll be out of sync. You could do it with a break-before-make changeover switch.
3. Lighting (2A) and TV (5A) might need revisiting. Take a look at the boiler plate label of the TV. Even LED lighting, when all switched on, might be getting close to the fuse rating

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pappajohn

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As gizmouk said....better.

I wouldnt run the 230v sockets solely through an inverter.....it will use far too much battery power.
Instead, either an auto changeover device so when on hookup it disconnects the inverter, or wire in a completely seperate socket circuit from the inverter.
And yes, the fuses need a rethink.
The pump will need at least a 10a..maybe even a 15a fuse.
Lights...10a
12v sockets...15a
Fuses protect the wiring from overheating or short circuit....not the appliance.

Fridge, water heater, blown air heating etc all have a 12v control circuit, even though they are mains operated, so will also need a fused circuit.
Modern chargers are smart chargers....they automatically select the output depending on battery state (charged/discharged) and will not overcharge your battery no matter how long it is on.
They will only output 13.8v so no voltage controller is needed.
 
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permenant connections between the leisure and starter batteries could see you stranded in a field you need a split charge relay to dissconect them when the engine is switched offif your heart is set on an invertor just run one or two socket from it seperate from the others much simpler if your using a three way fridge you need another relay to allow that to run on 12v whilst engine is running it will also need a permenant 12v feed from the leisure batteries
we have two 240 volts sockets in our van but only use them on hook up
solar panels need to run to a solar controller then direct to batteries
 
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sorry just looked agin and you have got the solar correct but generally you will have a seperate inline fuse on them rather than through the fuse block mainly due to cable sizes used

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With all due respect, no one is slating you - just advising, and hopefully making sure you don't make an expensive and / or dangerous mistake ..

... like ...

Your new SLD is better, but:
1. You need to parallel the leisure batteries properly. Not use the chassis to parallel the the negative side, as you've shown.
2. You can't take raw mains and the output of the inverter into the CU - they'll be out of sync. You could do it with a break-before-make changeover switch.
3. Lighting (2A) and TV (5A) might need revisiting. Take a look at the boiler plate label of the TV. Even LED lighting, when all switched on, might be getting close to the fuse rating
i disagree regarding using the chassis for earth most automotive aplications use this method can you explain a reason not to ?
 
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pappajohn

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You have just become a read only member....no more posts but you can read posts.

£15 per year subscription will allow us to help you with any more questions.
Details on the main page.
 
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PeteH

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Hi. I don't think anyone is "slating" you. However a concern to all of us is that your unit is SAFE for yourself and your family, so some criticism is inevitable, but not delivered in any way venomously. As for your concerns, most have already been covered I would second keeping the 230 and 12v systems separate, and advice on cable sizing and format is critical. if in doubt go bigger IMV. I have "converted" two America R-V`s in the past, with 230V 115V and 12v systems. And it is not something to take on lightly.

Pete

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ok i will try to explain what weve found to work like you i have converted a van http://building-renee2.blogspot.co.uk/
my first mistake was to site the leisure batteries a long way from the starter batteries if possible keep them as close as possible
almost everything in a van can be run from 12v we have a 12v power supply for the laptop we have three usb 5v double sockets around the van for phones tablets and satnav two running of the leisure batteries and one which replaced the ciggarette lighter in the cab for sat nav and ipod Broken Link Removed
we have two 240 volt sockets one in kithen and one close to our bed
we have a switched fused spur to feed the battery charger
we have a switched fused to feed the water heater which also runs on gas
we have seven led lights two in the kichen two in ceiling one above the bed one in the cab area and one just above the sideloading door with switch adjacent with hind site i would have used the existing van rear interior lights circuit to feed the one above the door which would have made it automatic
for the split charge system its often difficult to find an engine running signal to use to trigger a relay and i also wanted the hab electrics as remote from the van stuff as posible
i have used a smartcom relay to power the fridge and trigger a larger relay when the engine runs
you can get voltage sensing relays in one unit but they can conflict with the solar and cut engine charging whilst driving in sunshine using the smartcom negates this problem
the larger relays come with 10mm bolt connections and make it easier to use large cables to join the batteries
when we started we did have a small invertor but we never used it

batteries are a subject all on there own but generally the heavier a batter is the better it will perform we had generic "leisure batteries"which lasted 18months
were now into year two using trojan traction batteries and all seems well
hope this helps
 
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i disagree regarding using the chassis for earth most automotive aplications use this method can you explain a reason not to ?
Looking at his SLD, he's got both positives of the leisure batteries connected - no worries. For the negatives he's got one battery tied to chassis earth, the other battery neg is going back to the power controller. As it stands, you'll have one battery leading, the other lagging - one doing all the work. Just needs a short piece of 16mm - 25mm cable for true parallel.
It could just be that he's missed a line off the SLD. (y)
 
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Not sure where abouts in Derbyshire you are. But I have done a couple of self builds now. I have quals in Electrics/Electronics and experience of doing this.

I am currently in Wales but will be back in Lincolnshire/Nottinghamshire at the beginning of April. I will be happy to meet up with you and talk you through the basics over a beer or two. Would have to fit it in around my schedule though.
 
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