New Iveco Daily Chassis, do you have a charging issue?? (1 Viewer)

sallylillian

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I have been in contact with another 2015 Flair owner regarding his ongoing charging problem which resulted in us identifying a failing Victron remote panel, the removal of which resulted in him getting charging on EHU back! However the fault finding was made more difficult by the "no charging" problem apparently existing whilst on the road too. ie the Alternator was not charging correctly. Information from Martin @funflair pointed to this new feature on the Daily chassis:-
ELECTRONIC SUB-SYSTEMS page 31 says a) the diesel-powered NEW DAILY is equipped with an advanced ("smart") alternator commanded by the engine control unit. This alternator is capable of delivering electrical current only when it is really necessary, and is able to always guarantee a correct state of battery charge through the sensor on the negative pole.

It would seem that the Leisure bank is not monitored?

So this question is aimed at all those with a 2015 Daily Chassis'd motor home, whatever the make, Concorde, Phoenix, Carthago et al.

Have you noticed that if you set off with a low leisure battery bank that even after hours on the road the bank has not been substantially recharged?

Michael
 

funflair

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Hi Michael

This is where we find out how many vans are on the new IVECO chassis, my guess might be not many.

Martin
 

Doctor Dave

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Hi Michael

This is where we find out how many vans are on the new IVECO chassis, my guess might be not many.

Martin

Mine is on an old IVECO chassis (07 plate).


Dave

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sallylillian

sallylillian

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So is ours 2005 chassis,(y) the suggestion is that the "smart alternator" basically is not set up to look after anything other than the vehicle battery.

Martin
Unfortunatly my Flair is in the barn at the moment and until Chris (other Flair owner) made his observation whilst on a long trip and with a low leisure battery I was blissfully unaware. Also my batteries are on 24/7 charge so even starting the engine will not prove a lot.
 
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I'm pretty sure I've seen my 2014 pre-facelift Flair charging the leisure batteries while on tickover when I looked at the Victron control panel.

Next time I'll definitely check. For those with the problem, how did the fridge/freezer cope without alternator charging?

Dave

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funflair

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I'm pretty sure I've seen my 2014 pre-facelift Flair charging the leisure batteries while on tickover when I looked at the Victron control panel.

Next time I'll definitely check. For those with the problem, how did the fridge/freezer cope without alternator charging?

Dave

Hi Dave

I think the "smart alternator" will only be on vehicles from late 2014 production built on the "new daily"

Martin
 
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sallylillian

sallylillian

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Dave, I am not sure your chassis is the 2015 one which has the so called "smart alternator" fortunately if that is the case, it depends how early the chassis was released in 2014. This development is specific to the 2015 chassis according to the blurb Martin found.
 
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sallylillian

sallylillian

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I have been looking at my manual this morning and trying to understand the process of charge management from the alternator, the question is if the relay which connects the 2 banks is a different one than that which works with the Victron? Here is an extract from the manual.

- As soon as the vehicle engine is started, the „generator symbol“ on the
central panel signals the perfect operation of the vehicle generator.
- A battery separating device (12V-70A) controls the charging operation of
vehicle and leisure battery
.
- Via the battery separating device are additionally attended the consuming
point relays, which are controlled via the output "OUT D+ (simulated D+),
e.g. the electrically operated entrance step.
- The leisure battery is charged via the vehicle generator only if the voltage
of the vehicle battery has reached a value over 13.5 volts.
- The parallel charge is indicated on the central panel with the „double battery
symbol G“
- The charging process of the leisure battery is suspended as soon as the
voltage of the vehicle battery drops below 12.2 volts, or the ignition is switched
off. • Charging the leisure battery with the vehicle generator while parking
- If the leisure battery is discharged and there is no other power supply source,
the leisure battery can be limitedly supplied with energy by running the
vehicle engine.
- During this charging period the current consumption in the bodyshell is to
be kept as low as possible.
- For reasons of environmental protection, charging of the bodyshell battery
with the vehicle generator while the vehicle is parked should be used only
in case of an extreme emergency and only short time.

The suggestion is that they have it covered, however my experience of the manual is that it has many missing elements, or things they have changed; Alarm setting no longer locks the doors, there is no filling of the water tank by a switching valve of the city water connection anymore, I have still to find the leisure battery breaker switch, it is not where shown in the manual, the list goes on. That said it is an 830 page manual they must have a team working full time on it, even if they are clearly not keeping up!
 
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Robert Clark

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Our Carthago has a similar, if not identical system
Alternator charges the engine battery - when fully charged, a B2B charger kicks in and the leisure batteries are charged.
If the leisure batteries are not getting a charge then I'd suggest getting the B2B charger checked.
Another thing to consider is the capacity of the B2B charger compared with the size of the leisure batteries. I've got 4 x 80A, which would require 320 Amps to fully charge them.
If the B2B charger is 50A, then this could take upto 7 hours

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sallylillian

sallylillian

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Our Carthago has a similar, if not identical system
Alternator charges the engine battery - when fully charged, a B2B charger kicks in and the leisure batteries are charged.
If the leisure batteries are not getting a charge then I'd suggest getting the B2B charger checked.
Another thing to consider is the capacity of the B2B charger compared with the size of the leisure batteries. I've got 4 x 80A, which would require 320 Amps to fully charge them.
If the B2B charger is 50A, then this could take upto 7 hours
But do you have a smart alternator?
 
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sallylillian

sallylillian

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One of the key elements of these smart alternators is that they are controlled by the ECU and only charge when the engine is under reduced or no load. Indeed the guy who started this debate with me tows a heavy car so there is hardly any time when the engine is not under a load of some description and the engine tells the alternator to stop charging, this reduces engine hp consumed and hence fuel consumption which is the aim. That's fine if you are just managing topping up the engine battery for lights consumption cos its dark and engine start, but its a whole different ballgame if as Robert identified you wanted to pump in a couple of hundred amps because you were wild camping last night and are on the move to your next wild site?
Also checking the output whilst stationary does not cut it as the engine is not under load so the alternator is "allowed" to charge the batteries.
So this is not as simple as a b2b charging relay.
 
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sallylillian

sallylillian

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Another interesting paragraph from the Iveco book
Additional batteries
The addition of a battery in the vehicle electrical system requires the provision of a circuit that, during start-up, makes it possible to
section this battery with respect to the original. Given the new "smart" recharge strategies, the auxiliary battery must be equivalent
to the originally installed battery and must have the same capacity (110 Ah).
The batteries can be traditional or "recombination" (AGM or gel).
Due to the normal chemical reaction that generates acid vapours during charging, installation must be performed in a way that
ensures the safety of people and the protection of the vehicle.
Therefore, regardless of the type of battery, if you do not already have a segregated compartment, it is necessary to:
a) provide an airtight container corresponding to the passenger compartment, equipped with a system that vents vapours to the
outside of the vehicle,
or
b) use a battery equipped with a lid with a vapour extraction system, anti-backfire (flame arrestor) system and a vent tube to the
outside of the housing.
Also bear in mind that:
● vent systems should not cause depression inside the battery;

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Robert Clark

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No mention of smart or normal alternator in my handbook - however it does say
"A 100% charge is NOT achieved when batteries are charged by engine. Charge every 4 weeks via 230v supply"
 
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I have a two week old Concorde mhome on " New Daily" but reading through Iveco use and maintenance book can find no mention of a smart alternator. The converters handbook, only 200 pages, does not mention the fact either but that is not to say it does not exist. I cannot comment on whether or not I get a charge when driving as I have only done a couple of short trips and at all other times it has been on ehu.
So in short I cannot help but I will watch this thread with interest and concern.

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sallylillian

sallylillian

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Ive not had direct experience but isnt the point of a victron that it manages the whole 'power' situation?
The Victron inverter/charger manages your charging like any other charger from 230 volt AC and converts to an inverter when EHU is not available. But it goes one step further if you use the digital remote panel you can dial up the breaker limit on your EHU post, say 6amps. Then when inverter is selected but the van draws only 3 amps for whatever, the charger will only take the remaining 3 amps to carry on charging. When the vans transient consumer demand exceeds 6 amps it takes the full 6 amps and inverts from your batteries the balance required to meet the demand. So no need to explain limits to wifey! The issue on this thread is the 12 volt charging from the alternator which has nothing to do with the Victron, but a problem with its remote panel is how we stumbled onto this smart alternator issue.
 
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sallylillian

sallylillian

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I have a two week old Concorde mhome on " New Daily" but reading through Iveco use and maintenance book can find no mention of a smart alternator. The converters handbook, only 200 pages, does not mention the fact either but that is not to say it does not exist. I cannot comment on whether or not I get a charge when driving as I have only done a couple of short trips and at all other times it has been on ehu.
So in short I cannot help but I will watch this thread with interest and concern.
Have a read:-
http://ibb.iveco.com/Body%20Builder%20Inst...0DAILY%20en.pdf
Page 167 of the pdf
 

DBK

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The way I read the start of section 28 of that document additional batteries can be fitted to the vehicle but they must be the same 110Ah capacity as the starter battery. They should be wired in parallel with the starter battery with a means of preventing them trying to turn the starter motor but other than that, if they are partially discharged they will pull down the starter battery voltage so triggering the alternative to churn out some amps.

It may be described as smart but all alternators have voltage regulation to prevent the batteries being boiled dry so I can't see anything in the design that should prevent your leisure batteries being correctly charged.

I would look at how the leisure batteries are linked to the starter battery/alternator, if there is some sort of control box it may be faulty.

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Thank you sallylillian, yes it is all there! The requirement to have similar sized extra batteries to the starter battery flies in the face of big battery banks as fitted by converters. Need to spend more time reading the pdf.
 

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Thank you sallylillian, yes it is all there! The requirement to have similar sized extra batteries to the starter battery flies in the face of big battery banks as fitted by converters. Need to spend more time reading the pdf.
The pdf is a bit wooly ask it talks about additional batteries (plural) then mentions a battery singular. My interpretation is you can have several additional batteries but each must be the same 110Ah capacity so they all have the same charging requirements in terms of voltage profile.
 
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" In cases where there are very onerous electrical loads a second alternator may be used, and it must be installed (with all mechanical requirements necessary for compatibility with the vehicle and under responsibility of the body builder) according to the diagram in"

Amazing ! The fact that a "smart" alternator has to be assisted by an additional normally wired one seems to be defeating the object .:xdoh:
& would also be increasing the fuel consumption with 2 of them being driven. :unsure:

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sallylillian

sallylillian

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Thank you sallylillian, yes it is all there! The requirement to have similar sized extra batteries to the starter battery flies in the face of big battery banks as fitted by converters. Need to spend more time reading the pdf.
Martin @funflair deserves the credit he found it I just promulgate it!
 
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If you are all sure about this, there are going to be a lot of very unhappy germans out there. last I heard the new flair was selling like hot cakes and yet your going to have to think about a backup genny/efoy etc to use it as a motorhome!

Is it possible to spec it with a proper alternator?

In my experience 'smart' generally = sh*te anyway.

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sallylillian

sallylillian

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If you are all sure about this, there are going to be a lot of very unhappy germans out there. last I heard the new flair was selling like hot cakes and yet your going to have to think about a backup genny/efoy etc to use it as a motorhome!

Is it possible to spec it with a proper alternator?

In my experience 'smart' generally = sh*te anyway.
I find that smart may just be too smart for me, not necessarily my grankids for example!
Unfortunately I am not able to really test this possible problem at the moment and my understanding is from a third party with a Flair that was built 6 months before mine and delivered to TW in early 2015 but only sold by them in the July and classed by the factory as series 1, mine is series 2. I know they changed several things so maybe this issue is addressed for me? I do not tend to wild camp and have 240 watts of solar which means that my leisure batteries are receiving better attention, the other Flair is lived for 3 days at a time with no EHU, Generator or solar and hits the road needing serious amps.
I am writing to the factory with the full details and asking them for a comment on their implementation?
 

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Good morning Jon

I don't know that anybody is sure at all but just from reading the IVECO converter stuff it does suggest that the 'Smart alternator" might need a little help with more onerous charging duties, and this seems to match the experiences of Zcarschris from our forum. If it was to be specced or changed before the MH was built I would think that http://fahrzeugbau-meier.de/ would know as they seem to do all the chassis prep before it goes to the builder.

Martin
 
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Its not just a case of wildcamping - I would like to see solar keep up with the normal living requirements with the amount of sun at the average UK motorhome show. Or at the aires a lot of us go to some of which are shaded, or Shell island etc.

The ability to put a full charge in on the way or whilst travelling between is a major benefit and whoever decided that it wasnt clearly has little appreciation about how many of us use our Motorhomes.

We are seriously considering changing our Motorhome as I know many people on here are and would like to have the daily chassis with the ZF box but sorry would not buy one with a smart alternator unless it could be proved to be fit for purpose.

Jon

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