A BIT MORE TORQUE (1 Viewer)

[sally47]

Bought one of those little black boxes from p/borough show last year plugs in the ECU unit for three hundred pounds and really has worked as only have five spead box made big difference but now wondering if it will damage anything long term anyone else have one it's suppose to enhance the turbo anyway would be grateful any advice or should I go for a remap what are the pros and cons please

 

[Jaws]

Need a bit more info really.
What one did you buy ( or who from ? ).. There is one that does little and a few that are adjustable.. But I have not seen one that plugs in to an ecu as yet

 

[Charlie]

Need a bit more info really.
What one did you buy ( or who from ? ).. There is one that does little and a few that are adjustable.. But I have not seen one that plugs in to an ecu as yet

There are two types of tuning / altering the existing ECU maps.

1 is to have the new map flashed (overwritten) onto the existing ECU. the other is to use one of the fairly common "piggy back" boxes often called black boxes. Some ECUs like for instance the Denso ones found on Toyotas cannot be overwritten so only a piggy back kit will alter the existing ECU and its parameters.

You are spot on ! The make and quality of the kit is all important. They can be fantastic or they can be absolute rubbish.

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[sally47]

The one I have is I assume the piggy back one bought from torquing diesel tuning modules if that's any help

 

[Charlie]

The one I have is I assume the piggy back one bought from torquing diesel tuning modules if that's any help

This supplier ?
http://www.torquingdiesel.co.uk/

 

[GWAYGWAY]

I notice that NEW ford Transits in Chausson and Roller team have a choice of power outputs 125 and 155 bhp. the extra being £800 for the more power. There is more than a chip involved probably a variable vane turbo and bigger injectors to match the upgrade in the ECU.
The same with Fiesta and focus, same 1600 engine but 90 bhp and 122. differences in injectors and turbo If these are available at the Ford factory why do the manufacturers even offer the weaker engine is it to justify the optional extra price? The smaller ouput engine is a bit of a slug compared to the other.

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[Jaws]

This supplier ?
http://www.torquingdiesel.co.uk/

That is not an ECU piggy back unit.. All that does is alter the signal to the injectors and nowt else.. It is actually plugged in to the line that controls said injectors Charlie

 

[DanielFord]

I am always suspicious of remapping products, that said, on my car I do have a modified map. Those who own a Vauxhall will be aware that there is a 'sport' button on the dash. This effectively means that the car can run two maps. In standard Vauxhall spec (on my VXR), this means that you can select from moderately undriveable to totally undriveable (or you can turn off the traction control, which will put you in a ditch). Now I can select the standard map, or the sport map, which delivers a much smoother delivery of power, without the flat spots that Vauxhall provide.
I paid quite a lot to have that mod done, so I think the answer is, as others have said, the quality of the product is important.

 

[funflair]

Hi @sally47

Before we get into an argument, sorry general discussion on the relative merits of said tuning boxes and re-maps in general it might be helpful to tell us what the base vehicle is and how heavy the whole motorhome is.

What if any potential damage it could/might do will depend on how much extra power you have and what you do with that power, if it just runs a tad better and a touch more torque/power and you are not thrashing the living day lights out of it then I would say it won't hurt. If on he other hand it is a small engine under a big heavy motorhome towing a car up hill and down dale and you have a lot more power and a heavy right foot then the potential for something to give is certainly higher.

We have a Remap on our 3 litre IVECO and it runs smoother, yes there is more torque and power but I don't thrash it or tow a car so I am not worried about a bit extra grunt, mpg is certainly no worse, possibly a tad better.

Martin

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[Charlie]

That is not an ECU piggy back unit.. All that does is alter the signal to the injectors and nowt else.. It is actually plugged in to the line that controls said injectors Charlie

Mate I know exactly where they are plugged into. Usually the fuel rail and boost control loom. The term piggy back means it's an addition to the existing ECU and not a flash remap of the ECU..

The thing is these .... Let's call them black boxes can consist of s few resistors that increase turbo boost and nothing else. There are many parameters controlled by a full on and quality tuning set up.

The best by far are those set up on a rolling food where every parameter can be set up individually to suit the individual engine in the vehicle being tuned. This of course costs but the end user gets a full custom mapped engine not an off the shelf generic map.

It goes without saying a vehicles engine and transmission plus clutch etc etc must be in good order as extra power and Tourque will find any deficiencies...

 

[Sundowners]

Just be aware that if you do this to a new vehicle your warranty may not cover you if something goes wrong. A Fun member had this happen on a new Mercedes whilst in France, believe it cost him £10,000 for a new engine replacement in France.

 

[Jaws]

Yup Agree with much of what you say Charlie.. But I have ( somewhere ) a couple of piggy back ECU's.. They plug in to the Loom between the ECU and the vehicle. The other gadgets are, as you rightly say just a box of resistors in the main
Mind you, I have a Torquing of Diesel box on my van.. It was originally on the Miller and I moved it over to the Autotrail
Of course, me being nosy, the first thing I did was to take it apart.
Two TTL chips, a timer and an op amp fitted. Still aint worth £220 in parts ( in fact a VERY quick work out comes to about £14 + a posh box ) or what ever they are but a bit more than a few variable resistors that as you rightly say, are in some of the box's .. And Mine does help with economy merely by saving me gear chasing all the time

Again I cannot but agree with your sentiments as far as a rolling road set up goes
Simply cannot be beaten

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[Tony drake]

Just be aware that if you do this to a new vehicle your warranty may not cover you if something goes wrong. A Fun member had this happen on a new Mercedes whilst in France, believe it cost him £10,000 for a new engine replacement in France.

There are ways around leaving a file on a vehicle, I mapped a new shape transit Motorhome this week. I can unlock the ecu from being locked out. I then supply the customer a hand held device so he can then return his MH to standard at anytime if it needs to go back to the dealer. Once he has it back he can put the re map back on with his tool. Takes about 10 mins to switch the map on and off once the ecu is unlocked. The ecu does have to come out first to perform the unlocking though.

 

[sally47]

Thanks for all your help main factor as fun flair States weight of vehicle with my 130bhp engine on a tag axle chieftain weighing some 4 1/2 tons damage will occur in the wrong hands (or feet) I bought the box basically to save changing gear as its only a five speed and this it has done what started my concern was the red warning light comes on more often now obout 1800revs coinciding with fitting a great big TOP BOX now realised the drag is putting more pressure on the engine so if anyone is in the market for nearly new fiama box let me know

 

[funflair]

I would want to know what the Red warning light was warning me off before dismissing it.

Martin

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[buttons]

It will be costing VW a whole lot more for using similar technology on their vehicles. Do these black boxes change your emissions in any way from the factory stated.

 

[sally47]

Hi fun flair yes the light is the injection system failure light it does say occasional and brief lighting is meaningless when it does come on I just ease up on the throttle as said I am assuming the drag on the top box is putting more pressure on the engine

 

[Lofty1]

It will be costing VW a whole lot more for using similar technology on their vehicles. Do these black boxes change your emissions in any way from the factory stated.

Simply yes they effect the fuel air mixture ,in theory it should improve emissions on test but in use they are probably worse.

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[Charlie]

Just be aware that if you do this to a new vehicle your warranty may not cover you if something goes wrong. A Fun member had this happen on a new Mercedes whilst in France, believe it cost him £10,000 for a new engine replacement in France.

Agree. Our van is just two years old now and I wont fit anything until the warranty period expires.

Modern ECUs record a trace on them so removing these easily removable devices can be sussed if the garage looks hard enough. Our code reading devices no matter how sophisticated and my one is top notch wont pick that trace up but a main dealers very sophisticated computer will.. If they look hard enough of course !

 

[Charlie]

There are ways around leaving a file on a vehicle, I mapped a new shape transit Motorhome this week. I can unlock the ecu from being locked out. I then supply the customer a hand held device so he can then return his MH to standard at anytime if it needs to go back to the dealer. Once he has it back he can put the re map back on with his tool. Takes about 10 mins to switch the map on and off once the ecu is unlocked. The ecu does have to come out first to perform the unlocking though.

Bluefin ? As above it is possible for the dealer to find a trace on the ECU. Basically the ECU has been altered and it can and will record these events... ECUs on some vehicles can actually record the driving events or at least the very recent driving events of the vehicle. Toyota had a claim lodged against them where an owner had a shunt and blamed Toyota saying the brakes had failed. Toyota had the ECU examined and it was found No brake input had been recorded immediately prior to the shunt. Case thrown out. The modern ECU is a sophisticated bit of kit.

I will find the case I quote above if you like ?

Not looking to be dissageable but people should know exactly what they are getting into..

 

[funflair]

Charlie, I don't doubt that the manufacturers can get a good deal of information from looking at the ECU and I am sure that they will be able to see that the parameters of the map have been altered, even if it has been put back to standard.

What I find disappointing is that with all this technology main dealers still can't diagnose a limp mode situation, and have to resort to changing expensive mechanical components on a whim, at the customers cost of course, thinking specifically about @DavidG58 as I write this.

Martin

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[Tony drake]

Bluefin ? As above it is possible for the dealer to find a trace on the ECU. Basically the ECU has been altered and it can and will record these events... ECUs on some vehicles can actually record the driving events or at least the very recent driving events of the vehicle. Toyota had a claim lodged against them where an owner had a shunt and blamed Toyota saying the brakes had failed. Toyota had the ECU examined and it was found No brake input had been recorded immediately prior to the shunt. Case thrown out. The modern ECU is a sophisticated bit of kit.

I will find the case I quote above if you like ?

Not looking to be dissageable but people should know exactly what they are getting into..

Hi Charlie that's fine, everyone is entitled to there opinion

It's not a bluefin though, I have been in the motor trade for 28 years and in that time became a master technician working my way up to after sales service manager all at main dealer level and the last 10 years it's in the tuning industry. I have also worked with a manufacture direct to check their Ecus as they cannot tell if a file has been modified on it. Most manufactures can tell you a lot of things from the ecu data but only a couple can tell if the car/van has been modified and that's only if the car goes in modified. If the company mapping your car/van uses up to date hardware and software then you shouldnt have a problem as long as it's returned to original. It's the guys that use the cloned tuning tools you need to worry about. I map a lot of German branded cars and also work and get work from the same branded main dealer, we dont have a problem.

 

[Tony drake]

Thanks for all your help main factor as fun flair States weight of vehicle with my 130bhp engine on a tag axle chieftain weighing some 4 1/2 tons damage will occur in the wrong hands (or feet) I bought the box basically to save changing gear as its only a five speed and this it has done what started my concern was the red warning light comes on more often now obout 1800revs coinciding with fitting a great big TOP BOX now realised the drag is putting more pressure on the engine so if anyone is in the market for nearly new fiama box let me know

What light is coming on Sally???

 

[Khizzie]

I am always suspicious of remapping products, that said, on my car I do have a modified map. Those who own a Vauxhall will be aware that there is a 'sport' button on the dash. This effectively means that the car can run two maps. In standard Vauxhall spec (on my VXR), this means that you can select from moderately undriveable to totally undriveable (or you can turn off the traction control, which will put you in a ditch). Now I can select the standard map, or the sport map, which delivers a much smoother delivery of power, without the flat spots that Vauxhall provide.
I paid quite a lot to have that mod done, so I think the answer is, as others have said, the quality of the product is important.

And same for me .

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[sally47]

Hi tony check earlier reply tis the injection light

 

[Tony drake]

Is it a symbol that lights up or does it say check injection in words on the display??

 

[sally47]

Hi tony no just the symbol only when asking for max revs

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[Charlie]

Hi Charlie that's fine, everyone is entitled to there opinion

It's not a bluefin though, I have been in the motor trade for 28 years and in that time became a master technician working my way up to after sales service manager all at main dealer level and the last 10 years it's in the tuning industry. I have also worked with a manufacture direct to check their Ecus as they cannot tell if a file has been modified on it. Most manufactures can tell you a lot of things from the ecu data but only a couple can tell if the car/van has been modified and that's only if the car goes in modified. If the company mapping your car/van uses up to date hardware and software then you shouldnt have a problem as long as it's returned to original. It's the guys that use the cloned tuning tools you need to worry about. I map a lot of German branded cars and also work and get work from the same branded main dealer, we dont have a problem.

Mate I don't have your qualifications and in no way question your knowledge or words . But I can assure you that the very complex ECUs fitted to Toyota vehicles made by Denso will do and are fully capable of recording not only a trace left by the fitment of tuning devices but the latest vehicle movement data as well . The Denso ECUs are so complex no tuning company yet has managed to crack them. This is why a "piggy back" device is the only real option as trying to alter the map on Denso ECUs is not possible.

Of course there are few if any Toyota based motorhomes. One or two but not many so the words of caution I have written above may not apply. When I say may not apply I mean to vehicles fitted with far less complex and able ECUs.

Our van is based on a late 2013 Peugeot and for all I know it may not have the capability of the Denso units. It may be a very basic ECU indeed I really have no idea ! This is where my knowledge is restricted ..

But my point remains..... Just beware if a vehicle in warranty is the subject of a warranty claim it may just be possible the dealer can suss if the ECU and/or its running gear have been messed with.

For what its worth I am a huge fan of re mapping engines especially Turbo diesels. TDs respond very well indeed to tuning and the tuners have licence to unleash power and torque the manufacturers cannot. Manufacturer's first and foremost have to ensure the state of tune of an engine complies with the stringent emissions tests legislation demands. This means the full power and torque is seldom maximised. Engines can produce much more if the legislation were not in place .

Aftermarket engine tuners have no such restraints to comply with .

But then Mate you already know that

 

[Don Quixote]

Forgive me here, but you in a motorhome, which you will not be racing or hammering alone the road at any great pace and you want to remap the engine! cannot see the sense in it.
I have a Ford Transit base 2.2L Duratorq TDCi 140psi, which is fast enough, good on fuel and gets me from A to B. Sorted.

 

[Tony drake]

Hi tony no just the symbol only when asking for max revs

If you can take a picture of it that would help? If you disconnect the tuning box from the engine does the symbol still light up???

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