Van starting problems suggestions please? (1 Viewer)

Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
My van has started playing up earlier this year. It takes forever to start and if I haven't got the battery fully charged it will pull the battery down and not start at all.

It does this in the nice weather as well as cold weather. Middle of summer it was a bugger to start.

What I have done so far is replaced the Alternator and got a new battery (again) turns out the old one was still good.

I have a charger linked up and give the battery a good charge before trying to start. The battery voltage reads 12.7V after it has been left for an hour or 2.

When I turn on the ignition the voltage drops to 12.4 or 12.5V. After cranking for about 10 seconds it drops to 12V or less.

When the van is warm it starts straight away no problems. Because it happens in the summer I don't believe it is the glow plugs? Do they even do anything in the summer?

Any advice or suggestions much appreciated.
 

Flamenca

LIFE MEMBER
Jun 21, 2013
1,266
804
Europe
Funster No
26,598
MH
Hymer 564
Exp
Since 2010
I don't know whether it would result in the symptoms you describe but have you checked the earth strap to the engine. The terminals should be clean and secure.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Dec 27, 2014
967
3,361
Funster No
34,567
Make/model ?
Year ?
Engine size ?
Does it smoke when it eventually starts ? If so what colour ?
Does it start on all cylinders ?
Does it drive OK when running?
 
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
I'm guessing ! Could it be a fuel issue ???
I doubt it. It has had a new fuel filter and it runs fine once started.

I don't know whether it would result in the symptoms you describe but have you checked the earth strap to the engine. The terminals should be clean and secure.
Thank you. I will get that checked...

Make/model ? Fiat Ducato.
Year ? 2005 (53)
Engine size ? 2.8JTD
Does it smoke when it eventually starts ? If so what colour ? It has a little bit depending on how long it took to start. It is white.
Does it start on all cylinders ? Yes
Does it drive OK when running? Yes.
 
Jan 22, 2013
1,245
58,344
London SE
Funster No
24,385
MH
A class Adria vision I707
Exp
since 1971
as all above!
first of check the glow plug and relay assuming it's diesel?
fuel filter replace and if it's got spill pipes from the injectors make sure they are not porous and letting in air,
many other possibilities but need details of van?
:)
Grommet you beat me too it

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
as all above!
first of check the glow plug and relay assuming it's diesel?
fuel filter replace and if it's got spill pipes from the injectors make sure they are not porous and letting in air,
many other possibilities but need details of van?


Thanks,
Would dodgy glow plugs affect it in the Summer? I was led to believe they weren't used in the summer?
Fuel filter already replaced in this years service.
What other details do you need?
 
Dec 27, 2014
967
3,361
Funster No
34,567
OK,
Let's see.
Could be a few issues here.
#1 is to check the pressure in the fuel rail under cranking, this should reach a certain level before it injects. Needs proper diagnosis equipment for this.

#2 is checking crankshaft & camshaft sensors and see if they are OK and are synchronised.

#3 is fuel filter issues, they do draw air, this can relate to #1 problem above

Heater plugs on a common rail diesel are not like the older engines, they will start without them except when really cold.
The fact that there is little smoke suggest compressions OK.

Really is difficult to say for sure, but any well equipped reputable workshop should get to the bottom of it... all of the above are really only guidelines and common prognosis on this type.....
May be worth giving someone a shout on this one.

Let us know the outcome.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
OK,
Let's see.
Could be a few issues here.
#1 is to check the pressure in the fuel rail under cranking, this should reach a certain level before it injects. Needs proper diagnosis equipment for this.

#2 is checking crankshaft & camshaft sensors and see if they are OK and are synchronised.

#3 is fuel filter issues, they do draw air, this can relate to #1 problem above

Heater plugs on a common rail diesel are not like the older engines, they will start without them except when really cold.
The fact that there is little smoke suggest compressions OK.

Really is difficult to say for sure, but any well equipped reputable workshop should get to the bottom of it... all of the above are really only guidelines and common prognosis on this type.....
May be worth giving someone a shout on this one.

Let us know the outcome.

Thank you. The problem is I am a fulltimer and live in the van. If I take it to a garage they would need to leave it overnight to cool down before attempting to start it again to see the problem. This is a problem.

The van does start a bit easier in the summer but still takes longer than it should. Are you saying that the heater plugs are still used in summer?
If so this kind of matches my experience as the van starts perfectly for instance if I run for 30 miles then leave it for a hour while shopping it starts first time when I get back in.
 
Dec 27, 2014
967
3,361
Funster No
34,567
Thank you. The problem is I am a fulltimer and live in the van. If I take it to a garage they would need to leave it overnight to cool down before attempting to start it again to see the problem. This is a problem.

The van does start a bit easier in the summer but still takes longer than it should. Are you saying that the heater plugs are still used in summer?
If so this kind of matches my experience as the van starts perfectly for instance if I run for 30 miles then leave it for a hour while shopping it starts first time when I get back in.
OK, see your predicament.
That sort of problem seems more like a fuel issue to me, that is..... fuel drifting back in the system and requires prolonged cranking to get fuel back up to the high pressure pump.... therefore if van has been started and an hour later starts fine it suggests that the fuel hasn't leaked back to such an extent to yet cause an issue.
A fuel pressure cranking test when sat overnight as I suggested will show this up.
Sometimes a non return valve fitted right back at the tank on the delivery pipe solves the problem.
Another thing to check is the 'leak off' pipes on the injectors, make sure they are tight (from memory they have neuroprane o rings on the snap downs) and are not leaking.... If it's rubber pipes make sure they are tight on the nipples.
 
Aug 18, 2014
23,537
131,293
Lorca,Murcia,Spain
Funster No
32,898
MH
Transit PVC
Exp
16 years since restarting
T

Are you saying that the heater plugs are still used in summer?
If so this kind of matches my experience as the van starts perfectly for instance if I run for 30 miles then leave it for a hour while shopping it starts first time when I get back in.
Yes they operate the same regardless of season.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
ok, It sounds like my first move should be getting the heater/glow plugs replaced. I believe this should cost about the £100 or less including labour?

If this doesn't cure it look at;
That sort of problem seems more like a fuel issue to me, that is..... fuel drifting back in the system and requires prolonged cranking to get fuel back up to the high pressure pump.... therefore if van has been started and an hour later starts fine it suggests that the fuel hasn't leaked back to such an extent to yet cause an issue.

The fuel pump appears to be fine. What I do before starting is switch the ignition on and wait for the fuel pump to switch off. I repeat this process twice to ensure enough fuel has been delivered before even attempting to start. I then switch on the ignition for 4 seconds, repeat this 4-5 times before starting. If I don't do this it never starts.
 
Dec 27, 2014
967
3,361
Funster No
34,567
ok, It sounds like my first move should be getting the heater/glow plugs replaced. I believe this should cost about the £100 or less including labour?

If this doesn't cure it look at;


The fuel pump appears to be fine. What I do before starting is switch the ignition on and wait for the fuel pump to switch off. I repeat this process twice to ensure enough fuel has been delivered before even attempting to start. I then switch on the ignition for 4 seconds, repeat this 4-5 times before starting. If I don't do this it never starts.
Check heater plugs first, no need to remove.
Use a bulb to check if they are not open circuit..... cost = zero.

The pump you hear is the charge pump pumping it up to the high pressure pump driven off the engine.
The fact that you have to "prime" it a few times reinforces my belief that your fuel is leaking back down the system when the van is inactive. An injector can also cause this, there is a small kit for measuring leak on crank of the injectors, again, any reputable repair shop will have this.
 
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
@Jonkil Sorry I meant to say I can get away with priming once, however I do need to do the 3-5 switch on switch off. I do the 2 pump prime runs only when the battery is showing a lower voltage say 12.3V.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Last edited:

MikeD

Free Member
Dec 21, 2011
3,936
3,697
London
Funster No
19,230
MH
IH PVC
Exp
Since 2012
I would definitely check out the glow plugs especially if it is fairly low mileage and/or regularly serviced (y)
 

Lenny HB

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 18, 2007
52,684
147,584
On the coast in West Sussex
Funster No
658
MH
Hymer B678 DL
Exp
Since 2008 & many years tugging
Sounds like air is getting into the fuel line, a microscopic leak will be very difficult to find, try priming the fuel line assuming you have a manual priming pump if it starts that's your problem. Had the same problem with my last car never did find the leak , but it started playing up after fuel filter was changed.
 
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
I finally got round to getting the glow plugs changed. Booked it into the garage today. Guess what. It doesn't have glow plugs :eek:......

Mechanic recommends I take it to a proper diesel engineer. He think is it probably the injectors.

Can anyone give me a rough guestimate of how much new injectors cost for 2003 Fiat Ducato 2.8JTD please?

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Jan 8, 2013
8,478
11,516
Dronfield - Derbyshire
Funster No
24,202
MH
Burstner Lyseo 690G
Exp
Happy FLT since 2011
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
Would it be worth trying a diesel treatment first to try and clean/lubricate the injectors or is this stuff a massive con like I suspect?

If it isn't a con what is the good stuff? Redex seems to ring a bell?
 

Steve

LIFE MEMBER
May 8, 2013
1,613
2,062
Compton Berkshire
Funster No
25,895
MH
C class
Exp
on and off for 40 years
i would first look at the glow plug, as said by others then some fuel system cleaner or some petrol to clean the injectors etc.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Aug 6, 2013
11,941
16,527
Kendal, Cumbria
Funster No
27,352
MH
Le-Voyageur RX958 Pl
Exp
since 1999
It has one glow plug (or equivalent) and an auxiliary injector in the common inlet to the engine. The glow-plug ignites the fuel spray from the auxiliary injector and the resultant flame heats the ingoing air. I believe that it is arranged to operate regardless of outside temperature and I suggest that it will be the cause of the problem. The relay device for it is in that 'dormer':) bracket with plastic cover that hangs over the engine. The main injectors don't all give trouble at once & when the first one causes trouble you have a misfire until it warms up. When one of its friends expires you have a considerable misfire and an engine that 'stammers' on the starter.
 
Aug 6, 2013
11,941
16,527
Kendal, Cumbria
Funster No
27,352
MH
Le-Voyageur RX958 Pl
Exp
since 1999
Untitled.jpg
On this drawing items 2 & 3 are the components involved:
 

pappajohn

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 26, 2007
43,202
48,794
Dark side of the moon
Funster No
172
Exp
Since 2005
Glow plug relay.

Its uunusual for all the plugs to fail at once but a relay can.

And yes, glowplugs do work in summer, cold diesel still needs heat to assist compression heat from cold.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
@tonyidle The mechanic got his 12V tester on the heater device. He said it appears to be working and the solenoid was clicking. He took the relay out and did something which I couldn't see but said it was fine. He was a bit confused at first as the ground spade connector was dangling free. However closer inspection revealed that the tab was bent over and shorted to the body of the device which was then bolted to the engine and so grounded. He seemed confident that it wasn't the glow/heater device causing the problem....

I would like to get a second opinion on this though so will seek out a diesel engineer who know Ducatos to have a look.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
Another mechanic has had a look and he was supposed to get back to me, however it is now 3 months and he has been reminded and taken my details 3 times. so I am losing hope.

I was just wondering if @Geo wouldn't mind taking a look at this picture please.

The mechanic has said it is one of these two devices that are faulty.

I am just wondering what they are called. And what sort of price I am looking at for the parts and the labour to get them swapped out.

It is one of these two bits that is faulty that are connected by the yellow/red wire.

I would love to be able to drive to you to have them replace Geo. Just need a ballpark figure so I can get finances in place if it is an expensive job.

engine-not-start.png
 

Geo

Trader - Funster
Jul 29, 2007
11,757
14,563
Mansfield,Notts
Funster No
35
MH
Autotrail Tracker FB
Exp
45 +years with breaks
The best advise has already been given Karl you NEED a fully blown diesel specialist company like Bosch not a mobile mechanic of any sort he wont have the full range of equipment needed.
a recent Freelander problem that was presenting like yours turned out after all we could put into diagnosing it was poor injector spray patters and delivery open periods
Yours is the type of fault that Main agents and us refer to the experts, dont go wasting any more money on guesswork either get rid or get it fixed properly
By the way diagnostic time with a diesel tech is very very expensive the freelander was over £700 worth with 2 x new injectors It was 98% better but still not 100% IMHO
The best Mechanics have the balls to say I dont know! the worst recon they can fix owt,
Your current guy seems to be one of the worst he's hoping you get fed up before he has to admit even to himself "He dont know either"

Geo

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

scotjimland

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 25, 2007
2,076
8,976
Suffolk Coastal District, UK
Funster No
15
MH
Timberland
until Geo or someone else confirms..

I'm having a guess.. the one nearest with the two banjo pipe connections looks like the fuel shut off solenoid valve.. the smaller one looks like an injector..


oooops .. edit..

Geo has posted while I was thinking .. :LOL:
 
OP
OP
Gromett
Feb 27, 2011
14,669
74,862
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
The best advise has already been given Karl you NEED a fully blown diesel specialist company like Bosch not a mobile mechanic of any sort he wont have the full range of equipment needed.
a recent Freelander problem that was presenting like yours turned out after all we could put into diagnosing it was poor injector spray patters and delivery open periods
Yours is the type of fault that Main agents and us refer to the experts, dont go wasting any more money on guesswork either get rid or get it fixed properly
By the way diagnostic time with a diesel tech is very very expensive the freelander was over £700 worth with 2 x new injectors It was 98% better but still not 100% IMHO
The best Mechanics have the balls to say I dont know! the worst recon they can fix owt,
Your current guy seems to be one of the worst he's hoping you get fed up before he has to admit even to himself "He dont know either"

Geo
If money were no object I would indeed do that. But as best as I can ascertain this particular part is not overly expensive and 3 different mechanics have pointed it out as the cause based on tests they were able to do.

I have tried to find out what this device is properly called, and the nearest I can find is either thermostart or flame heater.
This looks roughly like it but it is the wrong one for my van,

Or
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221902833794

I would rather spend £12.00 or even £30 on the part and replace it just to rule it out. If it is anything more serious then I will just live with it till next year when the van goes to the knackers yard.
 

Derbyshire wanderer

LIFE MEMBER
Mar 30, 2014
1,269
2,366
Derbyshire
Funster No
30,753
MH
C class
Exp
15 years
Can you put a test light on the wire that feeds the fuel solenoid and the thermostart as in your photo when switching on in the morning? This should light up for starting a cold engine.
If this is lighting up, the next test is to see what the current draw is on the wire that connects to the thermostart ( the black one ). A clip on ammeter is ideal if you can get one to use. It should draw at least 5amps if it's working. The fuel solenoid should be unplugged so you know that the thermostart is taking the current.
If you cannot get an ammeter, flashing a live feed from the battery should show a small spark if it's working but please don't do this if you are not very clued up about electric currents and short circuits.
If these are working properly, the only thing left is lack of pressure in the fuel rail which will need specialist help to diagnose and repair.
I don't know where you are based but the best place I know for fuel injection specialists are TT Automotive in Loughborough. I have used many but these guys are great.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top