Battery upgrade (1 Viewer)

kelv · Jul 27, 2015

After doing a couple of weekends of grid my battery seems to last less than when new Only 10 months old and fully charged every week.I have decided to renew with 2 new ones so my question is which batteries are good to use and is it a straight forward job to do myself if I purchase relivent leads.
I am posting a pic of the old battery and charging unit after close inspection it seems the unit is set to gell battery setting is this right or wrong with the battery I am using. Any help from technical minded funsters would be much appreciated.

Munchie · Jul 27, 2015

I upgraded to two Victron 130 amp AGM's the difference is amazing no regrets!

Don Quixote · Jul 27, 2015

Got 3 x these and to date very pleased and price........ Perfect.

Fitting is easy enough

Broken Link Removed

Don Quixote · Jul 27, 2015

kelv said:
View attachment 70534 View attachment 70533
After doing a couple of weekends of grid my battery seems to last less than when new Only 10 months old and fully charged every week.I have decided to renew with 2 new ones so my question is which batteries are good to use and is it a straight forward job to do myself if I purchase relivent leads.
I am posting a pic of the old battery and charging unit after close inspection it seems the unit is set to gell battery setting is this right or wrong with the battery I am using. Any help from technical minded funsters would be much appreciated.

I'm guessing here, but don't think your old batteries are gel and therefore the charger is set wrong. If you do not want to change anything on the charger then go for gel batteries as it would mean remove old - fit new........ but if you can change the charger to sealed then go for the link I posted above as cheap enough. I would love to fit gel on our MH, but cost spoils it for me. If I get 3/4 years out of the current one's I will be a happy man.

Moodybrook · Jul 27, 2015

That is I believe an AGM battery by Varta. They are probably one of the best on the market, others will confirm!

However I also don't think they are "Gel" I don't think charging that battery on a gel setting will do it any favours. I think the gel setting is a slow cooker type of charge and you may not be getting really fully recharged (as you think). The technophobes will be along soon and explain why etc.
Give them another chance using the correct charging cycle !

They are not old. They may be sulphanated, I would discharge them quite a bit then recharge using a separate multi stage charger, hopefully that should rejuvenate them.

kelv · Jul 27, 2015

Don Quixote said:
I'm guessing here, but don't think your old batteries are gel and therefore the charger is set wrong. If you do not want to change anything on the charger then go for gel batteries as it would mean remove old - fit new........ but if you can change the charger to sealed then go for the link I posted above as cheap enough. I would love to fit gel on our MH, but cost spoils it for me. If I get 3/4 years out of the current one's I will be a happy man.

My battery is not gell I think the charger is set wrong but I am no expert

JeanLuc · Jul 27, 2015

Your battery is a Varta LA95 which is a 95 Ah 'Dual Purpose AGM' model. Youe charger looks to be a Schaudt - either EBL99 or EBL100 I would guess and it is set to the gel programme.
The battery does not really suit the charger and you would be better off with either a gel battery or a sealed lead-acid type. According to Varta, their AGM batteries require a charging voltage of 14.8V in the first two stages of charge (bulk and absorption) but the EBL99/100 has a maximum voltage of 14.3V which is ideal for gel batteries and perfectly fine for lead-acid (the Varta spec for their lead-acid batteries is 14.4V in stages 1 and 2).
Furthermore, the main difference between the EBL99/100 programmes is that the second, absorption, stage lasts about 8 hours when set to gel and about 1 hour when set to lead-acid. So you may have cooked your battery.
A better option, in my view, would be to fit one or two 80Ah Exide gel batteries, or one or two matched lead-acid. I have just fitted 2 x 90 Ah Varta LFD 90 which provide a total of 180 Ah and are well-matched to the EBL99/100. These are sealed lead-acid models and they are also low profile batteries with the same dimensions as the Exide gel model L 353mm x W 175mm x H 190mm.

kelv · Jul 27, 2015

JeanLuc said:
Your battery is a Varta LA95 which is a 95 Ah 'Dual Purpose AGM' model. Youe charger looks to be a Schaudt - either EBL99 or EBL100 I would guess and it is set to the gel programme.
The battery does not really suit the charger and you would be better off with either a gel battery or a sealed lead-acid type. According to Varta, their AGM batteries require a charging voltage of 14.8V in the first two stages of charge (bulk and absorption) but the EBL99/100 has a maximum voltage of 14.3V which is ideal for gel batteries and perfectly fine for lead-acid (the Varta spec for their lead-acid batteries is 14.4V in stages 1 and 2).
Furthermore, the main difference between the EBL99/100 programmes is that the second, absorption, stage lasts about 8 hours when set to gel and about 1 hour when set to lead-acid. So you may have cooked your battery.
A better option, in my view, would be to fit one or two 80Ah Exide gel batteries, or one or two matched lead-acid. I have just fitted 2 x 90 Ah Varta LFD 90 which provide a total of 180 Ah and are well-matched to the EBL99/100. These are sealed lead-acid models and they are also low profile batteries with the same dimensions as the Exide gel model L 353mm x W 175mm x H 190mm.

Thanks I think the dealer has fitted wrong battery or set it to the wrong setting here is a larger pic of charger

JeanLuc · Jul 27, 2015

Yes, that is a EBL, either 99 or 100 but I cannot be sure. The model number is in the top left of the front plate. Either way, the charging regimes are the same. I do not think it is a good idea to fit AGM batteries with this charger as the programme is not optimised for them. In fact, I don't think many motorhomes, other than perhaps some of the most recent ones, have a charger that is designed to work with AGM batteries. If you want to read more on the subject, have a look at this from a business that rebuilds Schaudt EBLs (and other brands of charger):
http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/agm-batteries.php

p.s. sorry if I am the bearer of bad tidings regarding your battery and if my earlier posts may seem a bit 'technically abrupt'. There has been a tendency to rush for AGM batteries where they may not be the best solution. It appears your dealer may have joined this club. Perhaps you can try and get some recompense, although I bet they will claim there is nothing wrong with what they fitted.

kelv · Jul 27, 2015

JeanLuc said:
Yes, that is a EBL, either 99 or 100 but I cannot be sure. The model number is in the top left of the front plate. Either way, the charging regimes are the same. I do not think it is a good idea to fit AGM batteries with this charger as the programme is not optimised for them. In fact, I don't think many motorhomes, other than perhaps some of the most recent ones, have a charger that is designed to work with AGM batteries. If you want to read more on the subject, have a look at this from a business that rebuilds Schaudt EBLs (and other brands of charger):
http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/agm-batteries.php

ThankS for the great info this is why fun is so good and a bit off research can save a lot of money pic of left side posted

JeanLuc · Jul 27, 2015

Ah - I've not seen an EBL29 before and I have to revise my earlier comments. I have just downloaded the English user manual for the EBL29A from the Schaudt website and it says AGM batteries are suitable. It recommends that the charger setting should be set to Lead-gel.
Here is an extract from the manual:
We believe that AGM batteries can be charged perfectly this way. However, suitability must be checked using information from the battery supplier and the charging parameters of Schaudt equipment. The charging parameters are specified in the operating and installation instructions.

The Schaudt manual specifies a charging profile with an end of charge voltage of 14.3V, the same as the earlier EBL99/100 models. This charging voltage is still too low for optimal charging of the battery you have, based on the documentation I have from Varta.

So it looks as if your dealer has followed the advised procedure. I would talk to Varta and ask their advice. I have found their technical people to be very helpful.

kelv · Jul 27, 2015

JeanLuc said:
Ah - I've not seen an EBL29 before and I have to revise my earlier comments. I have just downloaded the English user manual for the EBL29A from the Schaudt website and it says AGM batteries are suitable. It recommends that the charger setting should be set to Lead-gel.
Here is an extract from the manual:
We believe that AGM batteries can be charged perfectly this way. However, suitability must be checked using information from the battery supplier and the charging parameters of Schaudt equipment. The charging parameters are specified in the operating and installation instructions.

The Schaudt manual specifies a charging profile with an end of charge voltage of 14.3V, the same as the earlier EBL99/100 models. This charging voltage is still too low for optimal charging of the battery you have, based on the documentation I have from Varta.

So it looks as if your dealer has followed the advised procedure. I would talk to Varta and ask their advice. I have found their technical people to be very helpful.

I will ring them in the morning to get the best two batteries for my unit did you fit your own batteries yourself if so is it just a case of buying two leaders and linking together positive on one bat and negative on second bat with a link between the two

JeanLuc · Jul 27, 2015

I did fit my most recent batteries. The previous pair were supplied and fitted by Dave Newell in Telford.
In my case, fitting was quite easy as the Hymer had two batteries when it left the factory so the cabling was all in place. However, I have previously fitted an inverter that required new cabling and this time, I took the opportunity to tidy up the installation. I was also adding some new cabling for 12V sockets, routing them back to the EBL where previously they had been wired direct to the battery.
You need some thick cable links to connect the the two batteries (+tve to +tve) and (-tve to -ve) then connect the existing cables to the +ve of one and the -ve of the other battery.
Bear in mind that Hymer use a colour standard for 12V where brown cables are -ve and either black or blue is +ve. Check this with a multimeter if you are at all unsure. The EBL should be switched off/unplugged before any work and there should be a 50 amp fuse in the +ve line next to the leisure battery. This must be pulled before you disconnect the battery - it links the battery to the EBL.

peterc10 · Jul 27, 2015

I have an electrobloc and when I bought it the van came with one 85Ah Gel battery. I replaced it with 2 x 110Ah Banner lead acid batteries and they have been very good. I changed the little dip switch (on the right on your first picture) from gel to lead acid and it works fine. But do it carefully. i was a bit of a bull at a gate and I broke the switch, so now I will only ever be able to use lead acids!

kelv · Aug 1, 2015

Just an update on adding an extra battery I have found out the charging unit ebl29 can only charge up to 200ah acording to schaudt so adding a extra battery will put a lot of strain on the unit . Engine battery 100ah,leisure battery at present 85ah total 185ah. According to the hymer handbook which came with the motorhome if I wish to add extra batteries I need to add a upgrade unit to the charger has anybody done this or do I just add another battery and hope for the best

peterc10 · Aug 1, 2015

I have an EBL226 with an LT500 control panel. I can't find any maximum battery capacity stated in the EBL226's manual, only a minimum capacity of 55Ah. But the manual for the LT500 says you can set the maximum capacity for the leisure batteries up to 220Ah. I suspect your 200Ah figure is for the leisure batteries only. I have 2 x 110Ah batteries and they are not causing any problem.

kelv · Aug 1, 2015

peterc10 said:
I have an EBL226 with an LT500 control panel. I can't find any maximum battery capacity stated in the EBL226's manual, only a minimum capacity of 55Ah. But the manual for the LT500 says you can set the maximum capacity for the leisure batteries up to 220Ah. I suspect your 200Ah figure is for the leisure batteries only. I have 2 x 110Ah batteries and they are not causing any problem.

I hope you are right it will make fitting the new batteries easy.

peterc10 · Aug 1, 2015

kelv said:
I hope you are right it will make fitting the new batteries easy.

Mine is on a 2008 motorhome, so may not be the same as yours. Before doing anything try asking A and N services - they are Schaudt specialists. Also try emailing Udo Lang, who works for Schaudt (Udo.Lang@schaudt-gmbh.de). He speaks and writes good English and is very helpful.

kelv · Aug 1, 2015

peterc10 said:
Mine is on a 2008 motorhome, so may not be the same as yours. Before doing anything try asking A and N services - they are Schaudt specialists. Also try emailing Udo Lang, who works for Schaudt (Udo.Lang@schaudt-gmbh.de). He speaks and writes good English and is very helpful.

Already emailed Ido Lang the reply was.....
The best is to use a lead - acid or gel battery on the ebl.
The ebl is good for batteries between 55 and 200ah

JeanLuc · Aug 1, 2015

I have never found a reference to maximum battery capacity in an EBL manual (I have manuals for the EBL99, EBL 220 and EBL29A). There is always a reference to minimum capacity of 55Ah. However, it is not good practice to go above about 10 times the charging current of the EBL which is normally 18 amps so the maximum theoretical limit is 180Ah of battery bank. Udo has stated 200 Ah and he is the man who knows. I ran mine for six years with 2 x 110Ah batteries and now I have 2 x 90Ah batteries. It is not an exact science as the battery capacity varies with temperature and rate of discharge so I would go with Udo's advice of 200Ah.
Now to the question of whether the starter battery must be included in the size of the battery bank. There is no mention of this in the EBL manuals and Udo has not referred to it. Furthermore, the starter battery receives only a float charge, not the full IUoU charging profile with up to 18 amps and this float charge is only 6 amps max in the case of the EBL29; 2 amps in the case of the EBL99. Although A&N state on their website that the starter battery must be included in the calculation, my tendency would be to exclude it. Hymer routinely fit 2 x 80Ah gel batteries in motorhomes with only one EBL charging module (like my ex-factory installation). As far as I am aware, they only fit the additional LAS1218 module in vans like the S-class where there are three leisure batteries. If you want cast iron advice on this matter, email Udo again asking the specific question.
If you do decide to fit the additional charger (LAS1218) it plugs into block 7 near the top right of your EBL and requires an additional mains fly lead to power it. The main advantage of this would be rapid charging of the larger battery bank when on mains. It would have no effect on charging via solar or when on the move. (p.s. the LAS1218 costs about £160)

Hope this helps.

peterc10 · Aug 1, 2015

I think Udo is referring to the leisure battery bank only. The manual for my EBL for example talks in terms of it taking 24 hours to charge a 160Ah leisure battery, and the reference to a minimum of 55Ah must be for just one leisure battery. But you can always ask Udo to clarify.

The 220Ah I referred to was in the manual for the LT500 control panel not the Electrobloc and was in reference to you manually setting the maximum capacity, which you will need to do once you fitted the new batteries, and which has a maximum value of 220Ah you can set.

kelv · Aug 1, 2015

peterc10 said:
I think Udo is referring to the leisure battery bank only. The manual for my EBL for example talks in terms of it taking 24 hours to charge a 160Ah leisure battery, and the reference to a minimum of 55Ah must be for just one leisure battery. But you can always ask Udo to clarify.

The 220Ah I referred to was in the manual for the LT500 control panel not the Electrobloc and was in reference to you manually setting the maximum capacity, which you will need to do once you fitted the new batteries, and which has a maximum value of 220Ah you can set.

I will ask them to clarify but I do not have a clue how to alter the control panel nothing in my book see pic

JeanLuc · Aug 2, 2015

Go to this page:
Broken Link Removed
then scroll to the bottom where you will see two drop-down boxes. In the lower one, type LT 95 F (your control panel model number) click 'suchen' then select the English language manual (Bedienungsanleitung). It will appear in a box to the right where you click 'Downloaden'. You will be asked to provide an email address then a few seconds after you have submitted this, a link will be emailed to you to download the manual.
p.s. before clicking 'downloaden', If you don't have the manual for the EBL29 either, repeat the process and it will be added to the download box before you proceed to the email address step.

maxi77 · Aug 3, 2015

I am a trifle concerned by the apparent propensity for EBLs to fail from 'overwork'. Bearing in mind that the periods of time the charger will be asked to provide its maximum output for charging are likely to be a small proportion of their total working life should they not be able to cope with this, or is the problem that the domestic load is close to full capacity for long periods. Either way if the unit is not in fact continuously rated at it's stated output should this not beclearly stated in the manual. I have some boating experience where Sterling chargers are very prevalent and have never heard complaints of premature failure.

EBLs do look over complicated for the average punters needs though I can see their attraction to van builders. I do admit to the periodic temptation to take out the EBL and replace it with a custom switch panel using resetable breakers rather than fuses and a sterling charger. It would then be much easier to isolate problems in the wiring and the chargervwould cope with what ever batteries I fitted.

JeanLuc · Aug 3, 2015

maxi77 said:
I am a trifle concerned by the apparent propensity for EBLs to fail from 'overwork'. Bearing in mind that the periods of time the charger will be asked to provide its maximum output for charging are likely to be a small proportion of their total working life should they not be able to cope with this, or is the problem that the domestic load is close to full capacity for long periods. Either way if the unit is not in fact continuously rated at it's stated output should this not beclearly stated in the manual. I have some boating experience where Sterling chargers are very prevalent and have never heard complaints of premature failure.

EBLs do look over complicated for the average punters needs though I can see their attraction to van builders. I do admit to the periodic temptation to take out the EBL and replace it with a custom switch panel using resetable breakers rather than fuses and a sterling charger. It would then be much easier to isolate problems in the wiring and the chargervwould cope with what ever batteries I fitted.

I don't really understand the point here. As far as I am aware, EBLs don't fail from 'overwork' - in fact they are pretty reliable (based on the number of comments I read on here about issues with other charging systems). The EBL seems perfectly able to cope with being asked to deliver its maximum charging current output - well mine has over eight years anyway!
I am not an expert, but I understand that it is not good practice to load any charging system with more than about 10 times its maximum charging current. Since most motorhome chargers appear to have a max current of 18 - 20 amps, that means a battery bank of up to 200 Ah. If people want more battery capacity, it is a simple matter to upgrade the charger's capacity - well it is in the case of a Schaudt EBL system which is modular - I don't know whether other systems have a similar facility.

peterc10 · Aug 3, 2015

Not sure where you get your evidence for suggesting that there is a "propensity for EBLs to fail". No mention of it in this thread as far as I can see.

kelv · Aug 3, 2015

JeanLuc said:
Go to this page:
Broken Link Removed
then scroll to the bottom where you will see two drop-down boxes. In the lower one, type LT 95 F (your control panel model number) click 'suchen' then select the English language manual (Bedienungsanleitung). It will appear in a box to the right where you click 'Downloaden'. You will be asked to provide an email address then a few seconds after you have submitted this, a link will be emailed to you to download the manual.
p.s. before clicking 'downloaden', If you don't have the manual for the EBL29 either, repeat the process and it will be added to the download box before you proceed to the email address step.

thank you for your help i think you are right about the batteries after further research i am going to add 2 new 85ah batterys which i think are within parameters i have been trying to download the control panel manual so far no luck i will try again later keeps coming up with error on page.

Lenny HB · Aug 3, 2015

kelv said:
Just an update on adding an extra battery I have found out the charging unit ebl29 can only charge up to 200ah acording to schaudt so adding a extra battery will put a lot of strain on the unit . Engine battery 100ah,leisure battery at present 85ah total 185ah. According to the hymer handbook which came with the motorhome if I wish to add extra batteries I need to add a upgrade unit to the charger has anybody done this or do I just add another battery and hope for the best

Generaly it's not really necessary, although the EBL 29 has a limit of 200 AH and you are supposed to include the engine battery. In practice the engine battery only receives a trickle charge and you are normally never charging completely flat batteries, the only real danger would be if all 3 batteries were flat.

The charge regime for AGM batteries varies depending on manufacturer Banner for example recomend in the absence of a AGM charger that you use the Gel setting, holding atv14.3 volts will practicly give the battery a full charge.

I have a EBL29 with 2 x 95AH Banner AGM batteries, although I will admitt I rarely plug into mains and rely on solar.

maxi77 · Aug 3, 2015

peterc10 said:
Not sure where you get your evidence for suggesting that there is a "propensity for EBLs to fail". No mention of it in this thread as far as I can see.

It has been mentioned on other sites with a dealer in EBLs being quoted as saying they fail because people fit too much battery capacity. Considering their cost it does concern me as I am thinking of adding more battery capacity.

Techno · Aug 3, 2015

UDO is now on holiday until after August 9th

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