hilldweller

Look east. Look back 910 years. Europeans fight Muslims. It seems to me the Muslims were the educated tolerant ones. The Christians the thugs out for glory and thuggery propped up by the Pope.

Look now. The conflict still rages. With added venom thrown in by Israel, another piece of European meddling in the region.

In between, once again the Pope stirred things up by giving us Ireland.

Similar - Tamils.

We are tribal by nature and never seem to be able to get it out of the blood.

The only one who controlled it in recent times was Sadham Hussein, but look at what it took, now the squabbling continues along tribal boundaries.

Everything is made much worse by better transport and ever increasing population.

So what chance Ireland. Organised crime, tribal hatred, conflicting religion and no option to use Hussein's methods.

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Brian.

savantuk

An intelligent summary of the history of religious conflict through the centuries, if a little simplistic.

I think you are exactly right when you postulate that the violence in Northern Ireland is underpinned by organised crime. When 'peace' returned to the province, the antagonists, of both 'religions' continued to make a living via protection, prostitution, drugs, and arms smuggling. The violence of the Unionists and Republicans was a good cover for these trades, as police were intimidated, and unable to operate due to the no go safe areas of both sides.

I think that 'religion' was a diversion, a red herring if you like to give both sides legitimacy.

When I was a foot soldier in Belfast, Londonderry, Long Kesh and Armagh, I was able to determine, that without doubt, the rioting in the streets was caused by nothing more than hooliganism. The perpetrators enjoyed the riots, the firebombs, the 'chase', just as rioters and 'demonstrators' who attend the political rallys in the UK do. They don't support any cause other than their own. They attend because they enjoy the rush that they get from violence, and they imagine that a cause gives their violence some veneer of legitamacy also.. It was always thus.

The military killings perpetrated by the IRA and the Protestant groups were not religious in nature. They were the settlement of old scores, tribal in nature, not political or religious. If Religious intolerance were eliminated completely in Ulster, I would expect that the violence would continue.

The IRA was formed to propogate and facilitate the union of the 7 counties and the Republic. The Unionist groups were formed to keep Northern Ireland part of the united kingdom. The fact that Eire is predominantly Catholic, and the North Protestant, is co-incidental, and in the context of the 'troubles', unfortunate.

Husseins solution was genocide. I can see where you are coming from Brian, but I would hope that any PERMANENT solution to the troubles in Ireland is a little less drastic.

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Regards,

Doug

hilldweller

Your description matches perfectly the bits I've picked up over the years. There is no more a magic cure for NI than any of our troubled inner cities. With the decline in the UK's fortunes hitting the kids hard it's going to get worse.

Permanent solution ? Hussein just copied The Master's formula, the Romans. Obey or be butchered. We seem to have lost Boudicca and the Iceni that way. Long term it did not work.

Just look at this place, people are "nice" as long as un-threatened. But even in here, it does not take much for the heckles to rise. So in the real world a small bunch can stir up a big one and this God ( which one of hundreds ? ) doesn't do a whole lot to improve the situation.

There is just no solution. We are tribal vicious hunter killers with 100,000 years experience in kill or be killed. Maybe the solution is seen in science fiction, genetic modification. But you can bet the powers that be would retain some of the old thugs "just in case".

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Brian.

Autoquest

The troubles in Ulster/Northern Ireland/Island of Ireland etc never went away, as a frequent visitor over the last ten years I can tell you that what was reported recently has been happening on an almost daily/weekly basis - The difference is that the mainstream mainland media are now bothering to report it. I walked down the falls with a rifle probably slightly larger than me in the 70s and I walked down the falls last month - Nothing has changed except some rather dodgy new housing estates - Relax I did not!

hilldweller

I often go on about EU rule makers - they have to keep dreaming up more rules or they don't have a job.

It must be the same with crooks and thugs, well worse, how do you give it up assuming you want to.

"I want to apply for the bank tellers job"

"Previous experience"

"Well I robbed the place in 2001"

With bad unemployment and only poor jobs on offer there isn't much incentive to go straight.

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Brian.

geoff587

After I left the Military in 92 I went too Bosnia as a Consultant with UNHCR, my inital 3 month contract extended to 5 years and I saw often on a daily basis what a thin veneer civilisation is . What had taken us thousands of years to achive was lost in months . People reverting back to tribal rule, looting , rape and Killing being the norm, often on their neighbours whom they had lived in harmony with for years.
Religion is the excuse , man is the cause .

Slightly of topic, I could walk through the centre of Zagreb (Croatia) at midnight at the height of the war and have no fear of being mugged or robbed, I have done the same in Tirana (Albania) and Pristina (Kosovo) during the troubles but would not chance it in Doncaster .
When countries are are war does the national crime level drop ??

hilldweller

It took me a long time to work it out. I must have been lucky and like many people just too busy coping with family to bother. But then it starts to sink in drip by drip. And in later years my total hatred of history became an excitement of it when presented in decent TV programs. How I hated those history exams - "name the battles in the 100 years war". Look at the last 2000 years, not long in evolution terms and things fit into place.

Then things that were well hushed started coming out - like the behaviour of the Catholic Priests. The way our troops have been ill used - exposure to radian in Australia, by the British FFS.

And eventually there seems a clear and obvious picture of just what we are, certainly not what we like to think we are.

Which points to a grim future when we use the word FREEDOM. We are at a stage now where it's becoming a luxury item. So many feral threats now that the powers that be have to put survival ahead of freedom. Just look at the UK over the last 40 years. From leave your doors unlocked to Big Brother on every corner.

Not at lot of FUN in this thread.

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Brian.

Bulletguy

Off topic again here!

How was Tirana?

I have fond memories of tuning in on SW to Radio Tarantula (as the yanks liked to call it) back in good old cold war days and always fancied a vist to Albania. Never got round to it and I suspect it's now been ravaged by western 'civilisation'!