moandick

Hi Suzi.

I agree with what you say but there are many other people, much more knowledgable on this subject than me, who could prove to you that weight is not the case. It is the vehicle designation which matters and there are apparently only two designations which affect us.

The RV is either a motor vehicle (Car) or an HGV

Now if RVDA/DVLA has decided that the RV is not an HGV then it must be a car - ergo - a car licence, not an HGV licence.

Dick

pappajohn

I found this on the DVLA website.
there is NO mention of HGV or any other kind of goods vehicle only LARGE VEHICLES.
Taken from, http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring...ons/DG_4022547


Large vehicles with or without trailers


Vehicles over 3500kg with a trailer up to 750kg
C


Vehicles over 3500kg with a trailer over 750kg
C+E



This is very confusing also

Medium sized vehicles with or without trailers

Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer up to 750kg
C1

Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory C1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle. (If you passed your category B test prior to 1.1.1997 you will be restricted to a total weight not more than 8250kg)
C1+E



Large vehicles with or without trailers

Vehicles over 3500kg with a trailer up to 750kg
C

Vehicles over 3500kg with a trailer over 750kg
C+E

it would appear you can drive a "medium" sized vehicle up to 7.5 ton on a C1 or C1+E but a "Large" sized vehicle over 3.5 ton must be on a C or C+E

what constitutes "medium" and "large" ???????
something like a flatbed 7.5ton truck will be larger than say a cement mixer truck which probably weighs 10+ton.!!!

john.

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GeorgeTelford

Hi John

Yes thats what the DVLA say, but the reality is that the law in UK doesnt agree, I spent a few months conversing with the DVLA and they could not at any point show where the legislation was that backed what they say.

Here is a quote from direct Goverment (same site you quoted different page)

Taken from, http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring...ons/DG_4022499

"There are special licensing arrangements allowing you to drive larger vehicles without having to hold the higher large goods vehicle (LGV) driving licence entitlement. When driving larger vehicles, the maximum authorised mass (total weight of the vehicle plus the maximum load it can carry) determines the driving licence entitlement needed."

Now note especially the words "goods vehicle" then note the following statement

"DVLA cannot give legal advice on how vehicles are classified but, generally speaking it depends on the weight of the vehicle or the number of passengers it can carry."

What they fail to mention is that the people who do decide vehicle classification are Construction and Use Marsham, this is laid out clearly in the relevent legisaltion and they (Construction and Use Marsham) say categorically that a motorhome is NOT a goods vehicle.

Transport, Technology and Standards (formerly C&U)
Department for Transport
Zone 2/01, Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR
telephone 020 7944 2046, facsimile 020 7944 2029

VOSA also agree for several reasons, specifically

MOT classification is the same as car, it is not on the list of vehicles precluded from having a Tachograph fitted, Plating not required.

Here is the only definition which fits a motorhome from the Road traffic act

“heavy motor car” means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motor car, which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and the weight of which unladen exceeds 2540 kilograms,

Here is the full act http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988...ation-Preamble

now if anyone can show where they have changed the law since and how it makes a motorhome a goods vehicle or how heavy motor car as been changed to exclude a motorhome.....

There is far more evidence, but the above is pretty comprehensive.....

Suzy

I hear what you are saying and furthermore I believe you, however, I feel that if it currently costs £1000.00 to get your licence it is money well spent because if you were taken to court you could soon spend more than that trying to fight your case.

Bryan

I have edited the above quote as follows. In paragraph 1 take the result of the first sentence and insert into the second to show the full relationship between the two statements (my edit is shown in red). This clearly states that for instances where LGV licence is not needed then the MAM is the way to determine which licence class is needed.

The rest of the quote (in blue) is irrelevant as it follows on from the mention of 'goods vehicle' specifically giving it prominence when the first para is clearly negating the goods vehicle aspect.

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voxol51

When the licensing laws changed a few years ago it was supposed to make it simpler and fairer, and in theory safer.

But why is there no intermediate license? A larger motorhome / RV is not a goods vehicle. A 3.5 t motorhome or van used for private use pulling a trailer weighing more than 750kg is not a goods vehicle.

I drove 'bendi' LGV's for many years, and when I retired and let my LGV expire I still kept grandfather rights up to 7.5t.

My son passed his test after the law changed and can only drive upto 3.5 max with a 750kg max trailer.
He doesn't want to drive a 38 or 44 tonne 'bendi' truck, he just wants to tow a stockcar on a trailer, a gross of 1300kgs, behind his LWB transit, but can't without a C (and / or CE).

The present laws might or might not make roads safer by not allowing people to drive large vehicles without some sort of trainning, but surely there could be, or should be, an intermediate licence not for trucking, but just to allow private individuals the chance to enjoy their hobbies.

Voxy.

des

as someone who now drives hgv regularly, and also a 34 foot rv, my viewpoint is:

there is little or no difference in the skills required to drive either a puller rv or an hgv (rigid). however, when it comes to putting a car on the back, whether it be on a trailer or a-frame, this does not in any way equate to the challenge of driving an artic, with respect to reversing, but particulary with regard to the planning required at some junctions to avoid hitting bollards, kerbs, railings, and of course other road users. perhaps the towing limit should be increased to say 1500kgs to recognise this. i did my c+e with drawbar and trailer, and had quite a shock getting into an artic to find the huge difference. now, when you have a pusher, it handles exactly like a coach, with that long front overhang, and the best training would be a d licence course. as to the legal requirements, i'll leave GT to argue this out with you all. as no doubt he will.

des

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GeorgeTelford

Hi Brian

I see what you are saying, but that double speak by DVLA is trying to hide the fact that the Legisaltion ( see link for full legislation full act here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988...ation-Preamble ) when I first started talking to DVLA their site was littered with references to Goods Vehicles..... The law beyond 97 does back what they are saying, pre 97 it does not and DVLA try not to allow or mention the distinction, btw that is not legislation only DVLA opinion,note that they say "generally" in their disclaimer.....

I will quote a few relevent passages here.

First the section which makes a motorhome legal on car licence

"“heavy motor car” means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motor car, which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and the weight of which unladen exceeds 2540 kilograms,"

Then the stuff which shows a moptorhome is not a goods vehicle requiring a C licence..

"Section 20
Definition of “heavy commercial vehicle” for the purposes of section 19 (1) In section 19 of this Act, “heavy commercial vehicle” means any goods vehicle which has an operating weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes.
(2) The operating weight of a goods vehicle for the purposes of this section is—
(a) in the case of a motor vehicle not drawing a trailer or in the case of a trailer, its maximum laden weight,
(b) in the case of an articulated vehicle, its maximum laden weight (if it has one) and otherwise the aggregate maximum laden weight of all the individual vehicles forming part of that articulated vehicle, and
(c) in the case of a motor vehicle (other than an articulated vehicle) drawing one or more trailers, the aggregate maximum laden weight of the motor vehicle and the trailer or trailers attached to it."

Section 108 interesting but a bit large to post

now here is where they tried to take the rights away

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962824_en_9.htm

The intresting part is that read carefully they say that no-one is losing right to drive any vehicle that they were allowed to before that date, read some of the revoked parts and you will see that goods vehicle categories were very clear, so how did anyone drive a large motorhome that wasnt a goods vehicle? we are back to heavy motorcar...

Hi Voxy

An interesting idea, CL for leisure licence, covering only the driving of a large vehicle, but but not requiring all the Goods vehicle training....

Road Runner

Have to agree about the car

A; you don't know it's there except by looking in rear camera and catching a glance of it in your mirror on a sharp bend.
You do have to allow for it when overtaking and fitting into gaps/slots.

B; once them rear corner of the bus is clear with the overhang the car will follow.
Nothing like a caravan where you can take the side off of it by not taking it into account on bends.

In awkward situations if you cant reverse it a few feet get what i have a jockey wheeled frame (no much extra cost) and within a minute you can unhitch and drive the car anywhere with frame on then just hitch up again.

It also makes single handed hooking up a doddle

Nothing need be a problem

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