Winter Tyres (1 Viewer)

[tonyidle]

Maximum grip tyres should always go to the rear axle, that's why when you have a new set of tyres put on one axle only they must go on the rear by law. Putting only a pair of winter tyres on a motorhome with a pair of summer tyres, the winters go on the back as in breaking that axle has the least grip so this helps balance out the better grip of the front axle.

Yep - agree with that. Putting one pair of new tyres on any vehicle is fine and the assumption has always been that you put them on the driven axle. In the case of a MH though the best advice is put them on the rear. Two reasons that make sense to me: the first as already stated you need to retain or enhance understeer characteristics (it isn't a car); the second that a front wheel deflation is much easier to handle than one at the rear (again, on a MH).

 

[barista]

Maximum grip tyres should always go to the rear axle, that's why when you have a new set of tyres put on one axle only they must go on the rear by law. Putting only a pair of winter tyres on a motorhome with a pair of summer tyres, the winters go on the back as in breaking that axle has the least grip so this helps balance out the better grip of the front axle.

I 'm afraid whoever told you that is completely mistaken. They can go anywhere you want if they are the same size and construction. I would think that if either rear axle broke they would definitely lose grip!
Are you really saying that with winter tyres on the rear they will balance out the better grip generated by the summer tyres on the front? In that case there would be no point in winter tyres at all.
My van is front wheel drive so provides all the traction, all the steering and most of the braking.

 

[jonandshell]

Best practice is to put the newest gripper tyres on the rear axle irrespective of the drive axle position.
This ensures in the event of a slide, the vehicle will understeer rather than oversteer.
This is the procedure carried out by every reputable tyre fitter to protect themselves from litigation from Mrs Smith who goes off an icy road by rushing to pick up her little darlings from the school gates.
HOWEVER, there is no law to dictate this.

Commercial vehicles and motorhomes are a different kettle of fish from Mrs Smith's Chelsea tractor or trendy hybrid car.
Axle loading is usually biased towards the rear on coach built motorhomes. Therefore, the rear axle will always have more pressure on it and in turn those tyres will exert more friction on the roads surface, giving more tractive effort.
So, the much-lauded case of the van swapping ends on an icy bend in the road just because you fitted winter tyres to the front only may not be as likely to happen as in a lightly loaded car where the weight distribution is often biased towards the front.

I certainly don't see front wheel drive vehicles swapping ends in the Alps just because they have snow chains on the front axle only!

So, do what you want. It's your vehicle, your responsibility!

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[barista]

Yep - agree with that. Putting one pair of new tyres on any vehicle is fine and the assumption has always been that you put them on the driven axle. In the case of a MH though the best advice is put them on the rear. Two reasons that make sense to me: the first as already stated you need to retain or enhance understeer characteristics (it isn't a car); the second that a front wheel deflation is much easier to handle than one at the rear (again, on a MH).

With tag axles it's always going to be an inherent understeerer that's for sure. Not sure what you mean by the front wheel deflation bit? Do you mean easier to keep control of the van?
Agaric is saying that with winters on the back the front will have more grip which I can't quite follow.

 

[TheCaller]

Jon has beaten me to it.

Winter tyres on the front only will keep you moving forward better than winter tyres on the back only (in a front wheel drive van).
Winter tyres on the back only will give you a better chance of stopping in a straight line when you need to.
You will get a greater potential braking effect with winter tyres on the front, but a lower chance of staying in a straight line. Once the back breaks away, the rest is academic.

So you need to weigh up the options.
Is keeping moving my priority?
Do I have a tail heavy vehicle (must put the better tyres on the rear if you do).
Do I have a racing driver's reactions & car control?

If the answers are yes, no & yes, then winter tyres on the front only could be acceptable.

 

[DP+JAY]

Best practice is to put the newest gripper tyres on the rear axle irrespective of the drive axle position.

Yes, I've come across this before, BUT yet to find anyone who will tell me at what mileage/tread depth I need to swap the wheels round.
On a FWD vehicle the front tyres wear at twice or three times the rate of the rears. Conversley on rear wheel drive the rears wear quicker,So at what point is it necessary to swap them front to rear & vice versa to get the best ballance of wear/grip? None of the tyre "experts" have been able to give an answer.

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[jonandshell]

Yes, I've come across this before, BUT yet to find anyone who will tell me at what mileage/tread depth I need to swap the wheels round.
On a FWD vehicle the front tyres wear at twice or three times the rate of the rears. Conversley on rear wheel drive the rears wear quicker,So at what point is it necessary to swap them front to rear & vice versa to get the best ballance of wear/grip? None of the tyre "experts" have been able to give an answer.

Swapping wheels around always used to be part of a service.
I doubt it goes on in practice nowadays when the bottom line is the priority rather than the quality of the service given.
Although it is expensive to change them all at once with even wear, it does mean you won't have 4 new ones and a 15 year old spare waiting to go pop when you need it!

 

[barista]

With tag axles it's always going to be an inherent understeerer that's for sure. Not sure what you mean by the front wheel deflation bit? Do you mean easier to keep control of the van?
Agaric is saying that with winters on the back the front will have more grip which I can't quite follow.

Best practice is to put the newest gripper tyres on the rear axle irrespective of the drive axle position.
This ensures in the event of a slide, the vehicle will understeer rather than oversteer.
This is the procedure carried out by every reputable tyre fitter to protect themselves from litigation from Mrs Smith who goes off an icy road by rushing to pick up her little darlings from the school gates.
HOWEVER, there is no law to dictate this.

Commercial vehicles and motorhomes are a different kettle of fish from Mrs Smith's Chelsea tractor or trendy hybrid car.
Axle loading is usually biased towards the rear on coach built motorhomes. Therefore, the rear axle will always have more pressure on it and in turn those tyres will exert more friction on the roads surface, giving more tractive effort.
So, the much-lauded case of the van swapping ends on an icy bend in the road just because you fitted winter tyres to the front only may not be as likely to happen as in a lightly loaded car where the weight distribution is often biased towards the front.

I certainly don't see front wheel drive vehicles swapping ends in the Alps just because they have snow chains on the front axle only!

So, do what you want. It's your vehicle, your responsibility!

Best practice is to put the newest gripper tyres on the rear axle irrespective of the drive axle position.
This ensures in the event of a slide, the vehicle will understeer rather than oversteer.
This is the procedure carried out by every reputable tyre fitter to protect themselves from litigation from Mrs Smith who goes off an icy road by rushing to pick up her little darlings from the school gates.
HOWEVER, there is no law to dictate this.

Commercial vehicles and motorhomes are a different kettle of fish from Mrs Smith's Chelsea tractor or trendy hybrid car.
Axle loading is usually biased towards the rear on coach built motorhomes. Therefore, the rear axle will always have more pressure on it and in turn those tyres will exert more friction on the roads surface, giving more tractive effort.
So, the much-lauded case of the van swapping ends on an icy bend in the road just because you fitted winter tyres to the front only may not be as likely to happen as in a lightly loaded car where the weight distribution is often biased towards the front.

I certainly don't see front wheel drive vehicles swapping ends in the Alps just because they have snow chains on the front axle only!

So, do what you want. It's your vehicle, your responsibility!

Jon has beaten me to it.

Winter tyres on the front only will keep you moving forward better than winter tyres on the back only (in a front wheel drive van).
Winter tyres on the back only will give you a better chance of stopping in a straight line when you need to.
You will get a greater potential braking effect with winter tyres on the front, but a lower chance of staying in a straight line. Once the back breaks away, the rest is academic.

So you need to weigh up the options.
Is keeping moving my priority?
Do I have a tail heavy vehicle (must put the better tyres on the rear if you do).
Do I have a racing driver's reactions & car control?

If the answers are yes, no & yes, then winter tyres on the front only could be acceptable.

Keeping forward motion and steering are definite priorities. With 2/3 of the weight on the rear axles they are unlikely to break away before the fronts and any heavy breaking required by not paying attention would usually be in a straight line. Who's to say what the difference in co-efficient of friction would be between a heavily laden rear end with M&S tyres and a front axle with winter specific tyres?

 

[barista]

You could not be more WRONG if you tried!

Well, hit the snow today so followed chockswahay's advice and put the chains on the rear wheels to get better grip at the back. After the Guardia turned up and fell about laughing several other m/homers stopped to take pics as well!!!

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[Chockswahay]

Well, hit the snow today so followed chockswahay's advice and put the chains on the rear wheels to get better grip at the back. After the Guardia turned up and fell about laughing several other m/homers stopped to take pics as well!!!

Yup, you just keep protesting

( oh, and NOT my advice either )

 

[barista]

Yup, you just keep protesting

At your advice, that's for sure.

 

[Chockswahay]

Ok @barista .......................

Just letting you have the last word.............. coz I really can not be bothered to argue.............. you clearly MUST be right

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[barista]

Ok @barista .......................

Just letting you have the last word.............. coz I really can not be bothered to argue.............. you clearly MUST be right

Certainly in this case as proven.

 

[gus-lopez]

Well, hit the snow today so followed chockswahay's advice and put the chains on the rear wheels to get better grip at the back. After the Guardia turned up and fell about laughing several other m/homers stopped to take pics as well!!!

Well you made a fool of yourself then as it's tyres we were talking about,. 2 new any type always go on the back. They stop the back from breaking away & allow you to hopefully control any rear slide. It's far easier for the average person to control a loss of traction on the front . Once the back has gone you are a passenger , more or less.
Chains , if only one set ( not recommended) would have to go on the drive axle if you cannot obtain traction but I'd always use 2 sets.

 

[barista]

Well you made a fool of yourself then as it's tyres we were talking about,. 2 new any type always go on the back. They stop the back from breaking away & allow you to hopefully control any rear slide. It's far easier for the average person to control a loss of traction on the front . Once the back has gone you are a passenger , more or less.
Chains , if only one set ( not recommended) would have to go on the drive axle if you cannot obtain traction but I'd always use 2 sets.

We were talking about relative grip front and rear. Two new tyres should not necessarily go on the back and I haven't made a fool of myself because it didn't happen. Lighten up and get a sense of humour.

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[tonyidle]

With tag axles it's always going to be an inherent understeerer that's for sure. Not sure what you mean by the front wheel deflation bit? Do you mean easier to keep control of the van?
.

Yes - the front is easier to keep under control than the rear for the same reason that understeer is easier to control than oversteer.

 

[barista]

Yes - the front is easier to keep under control than the rear for the same reason that understeer is easier to control than oversteer.

Unfortunately terminal understeer is impossible to control, you just sail on with no steering or braking.

 

[barista]

Keeping forward motion and steering are definite priorities. With 2/3 of the weight on the rear axles they are unlikely to break away before the fronts and any heavy breaking required by not paying attention would usually be in a straight line. Who's to say what the difference in co-efficient of friction would be between a heavily laden rear end with M&S tyres and a front axle with winter specific tyres?

Unless any of the experts on here can answer the above question it is not possible to give sage advice in thus instance.

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[PeteH]

Dilemma?.

2 New Tyres fitted to rear June (Vanco CP) By dealership. and having done about 3K miles I think 2 New Front needed, Not illegal but low on tread depth. Having struggled to get off a muddy field back in Sept; I have decided to replace them. Was looking at M&S tyres. and logically you would think "put them on the fronts" (driven Wheels) equals More traction in Muddy Conditions. However the direction of the foregoing thread would suggest putting the "new" tyres on the rear and transferring the (non M&S) to the fronts. thereby losing any advantage the M&S tyre might have over the others?. In which case the Cost difference factor over non M&S. (or even winter tyres?) becomes academic Ie; Why Bother? Just put 2 more Vanco CP`s on? and save a bunch of cash? OR Scrap all 4 and pay substantially more for a full set of M&S tyres? (that`s swmbo`s Xmas pressy gone then)

Thought?

Pete

 

[GWAYGWAY]

If you drive your MH like a rally car then expect trouble and if you drive properly and you do not have knackered tyres anywhere then no trouble. In snow the safest tyres will be the drive axles being slicks as you cannot get into trouble driving when you cannot move at all.
I have snow /wintermix tyre all round on my Fiesta and do no get troubles in snow but before I got them I couldn't even pull away on my drive. Sipes going around the tyre grip nothing sipes across are marvelous and the soft mix is good in the wet as well.
Just drive properly and keep good tread all round.

 

[jonandshell]

I used to work as an agricultural engineer.
We fitted m+s tyres to the front of our Astramax vans due to needing to drive across muddy fields.
Nobody died, but then again we didn't drive like Colin McRae either! It was advantageous to arrive with all your toold in your box and unbroken spare parts.

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[barista]

I used to work as an agricultural engineer.
We fitted m+s tyres to the front of our Astramax vans due to needing to drive across muddy fields.
Nobody died, but then again we didn't drive like Colin McRae either! It was advantageous to arrive with all your toold in your box and unbroken spare parts.

But you suggested earlier that they should always be fitted on the rear? I presume your employer paid no heed to health & safety then and you were happy to go along with it? Perfectly fine on a fwd vehicle always on the assumption that the rears are in good condition. I can't imagine any deluded motorhome driver trying to conduct it like a rally car because attempting that would end in tears whatever the tyre configuration.

 

[jonandshell]

But you suggested earlier that they should always be fitted on the rear? I presume your employer paid no heed to health & safety then and you were happy to go along with it? Perfectly fine on a fwd vehicle always on the assumption that the rears are in good condition. I can't imagine any deluded motorhome driver trying to conduct it like a rally car because attempting that would end in tears whatever the tyre configuration.

I suggested earlier that it was tyre industry best practice to put new tyres on the rear. I also stated the reason why it was done.
I kept an open mind on the reasons for choosing to fit whatever tyre on whatever axle. That is up to the priorities of the vehicle operator.
As a qualified agricultural, HGV and tracked vehicle mechanic with many years experience of operating vehicles in extreme environments, I need no lectures about the practice and theory of tractive effort, coefficient of friction and off road vehicle operation.
We ski from our motorhome annually and have driven many miles on snow covered roads on steep gradients.

I feel you are becoming unnecessarily argumentative on this thread.

 

[sdc77]

Dilemma?.

2 New Tyres fitted to rear June (Vanco CP) By dealership. and having done about 3K miles I think 2 New Front needed, Not illegal but low on tread depth. Having struggled to get off a muddy field back in Sept; I have decided to replace them. Was looking at M&S tyres. and logically you would think "put them on the fronts" (driven Wheels) equals More traction in Muddy Conditions. However the direction of the foregoing thread would suggest putting the "new" tyres on the rear and transferring the (non M&S) to the fronts. thereby losing any advantage the M&S tyre might have over the others?. In which case the Cost difference factor over non M&S. (or even winter tyres?) becomes academic Ie; Why Bother? Just put 2 more Vanco CP`s on? and save a bunch of cash? OR Scrap all 4 and pay substantially more for a full set of M&S tyres? (that`s swmbo`s Xmas pressy gone then)

Thought?

Pete

M&S on front

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[barista]

I suggested earlier that it was tyre industry best practice to put new tyres on the rear. I also stated the reason why it was done.
I kept an open mind on the reasons for choosing to fit whatever tyre on whatever axle. That is up to the priorities of the vehicle operator.
As a qualified agricultural, HGV and tracked vehicle mechanic with many years experience of operating vehicles in extreme environments, I need no lectures about the practice and theory of tractive effort, coefficient of friction and off road vehicle operation.
We ski from our motorhome annually and have driven many miles on snow covered roads on steep gradients.

I feel you are becoming unnecessarily argumentative on this thread.

Debate is not necessarily argument unless you want it to be and I am impressed with your qualifications which almost match mine. I expect that during your skiing trips you have the most grip on the driven wheels or you wouldn't surmount the steep gradients you speak of to be able to enjoy your sport. I presume your van isn't tracked?

 

[jonandshell]

Yep Yokohama All season tyres all round!
Chains on the rear when it gets really sticky.
Look, I am not picking a fight. My original post stated that the tyre industry dictated the new tyres on the rear rule.
I also stated that the same isn't true for a commercial or motorhome.
We actually agree on this point.

Happy Christmas!

 

[barista]

Yep Yokohama All season tyres all round!
Chains on the rear when it gets really sticky.
Look, I am not picking a fight. My original post stated that the tyre industry dictated the new tyres on the rear rule.
I also stated that the same isn't true for a commercial or motorhome.
We actually agree on this point.

Happy Christmas!

And the same to you without being unnecessarily argumentative

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[Gellyneck]

Well Sandra @irnbru you'll be clear on the answer to your question then!

 

[sdc77]

I think a fair answer to the original question would be.
If you're going to be driving in wintery conditions such as snow and ice then quality winter tyres would be reccomended (and required on some countries). These winter tyres can often be used all year round. Some choose to have two sets of wheels and change with the seasons.
If you're just going to be driving in milder winter conditions such as we usually get in the south of the UK then they aren't really required. But a good set of all season tyres that have enhanced mud and snow grip would be a good choice.
Otherwise the standard issue camper specific tyres with the stronger sidewall are fine.

 

[Tincataylor]

I'm not an expert on anything, but we had to have winter tyres fitted all round on our RAV4 by law when we lived in Germany. Have been back in the UK for over 4 years now and they are still going strong and we can detect no difference in handling but they were brilliant in the snow in Germany.

The Tincas

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