What to do if your Camper is too slow? (1 Viewer)

Road Runner

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3) Sell the thing and buy something that does the speed you want to travel at !


Yes and we have seen you Japanese DRIFTING a Smart car around:winky:


Don't think that was the original ideas of them:winky:
 

Jaws

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Wellllllllllllllllllll

A mans gotta play now aint he !!! ::bigsmile:

Managed to do it in the buggy too but only on grass.. not enough ooomph to do it on tarmac
 

pudseykeith

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Look on Ebay under turbo's and super chargers. There is a easly fitting electric super charger
there,cost around £125 / £150 ish.
Ours is a 3lt merc, normaly asperated diesel It was very slugish. When I checked the air box the intake seaned to be manufactured to reduce induction noise. I alted the intake and piped it up to a new air scoop I made mountedjust behind the grill. Due to the build up of air presure on the front of the mooving van this helped to slightly increase the presure of the air feeding the air box. This definatly improove performance a bit and with the intake being moved to just behind the grill, it did not increase the sound of the air being drawn into the mill.
Pudseykeith. :thumb:

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OP
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We find 50 mph (on satnav) a comfortable cruising speed on normal roads with anything between 50 and 70 on the motorway easily achievable without being unbearable on our 410 with auto box.

Sounds like it just needs a good service and maybe a good long run, acceleration isn't special as it's a big hulk.

After all the generous input here, a couple of days consideration of the journey to here in France, and a few simple checks around the vehicle, I now have an idea on how to solve some if not all of the problems.

It's a Hymer 570 1992 on a Merc 410D base. 42,000 miles. Gearbox has 4th & 5th gear transposed which made for a miserable journey. MH hasn't travelled very far each year, possibly since new. Can't ask any practical questions of seller as it's an estate sale.

The gearbox selection problem looks to have an answer, but it does appear to have the original? gear ratios, they just appeared in the wrong order.
I'm going to look for the standard ratio for 4th and 5th and check them out.

Now know that the highest speed diff ratio is fitted (1 : 4.111) giving a tested top speed with this MH model of 66 mph and 68 mph when used with a van.

I know at the moment the MH can't get close to that but there was a small improvement in top speed after driving the 550 miles to here (quote above spot on). Also acceleration uphill was markedly better.

The MH looks well cared for with all the obvious signs of maintainance, but lack of use can be a disaster as we all know.

We want to cruise at about 55mph but with the option of getting to 65 mph if neccessary, this plainly isn't possible at the moment.
It's obvious from others with a similar set-up that our MH is at least 10 mph slower than theirs.

So the next trip back to France and if weather is permitting I'll check all the filters, alter the gear selector, use a Forte injection cleaner and see where that puts the perfomance.

In the mean time as per Snowbird and pappajohn, I'll check though a contact the possibilty of getting taller tyres and rims to fit within the MH body, plus the advantage it will create.

Two things still puzzle though. A 15% over reading on the speedo, this is a Mercedes for goodness sake. Even if the engine could produce more power it has to rev higher to go faster, to my ear the revs were high enough for that engine. It may be a good idea to borrow a clip on rev counter ( is that possible on diesel? ) to check at what rpm it sounds too much to me.

The tyres all round are as new, that's as new this year not new as in no mileage but fitted for years. They are all M+ S tyres. Would these have a lower side wall height and what is the reason for fitting them as a year round tyre, is it moving on grass, price?

Sorry this is so long, but I'm determined to get to the bottom of this and go about it the right way.
This is motorhome FUN but the help here for MH problems is superb, but I must have a sense of humour, my favourite actor is Chevy Chase
 

Snowbird

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You say recently fitted new tyres.....Maybe that's your problem as you don't say what size tyres are fitted. Because of tyre price its just a longshot but has the previous owner fitted smaller tyres. Check the suitable tyre sizes for the rims and you could have a cheap fix. Just whilst in the UK go to secondhand tyre dealer and fit taller tyres on the rear and try it.
 
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You say recently fitted new tyres.....Maybe that's your problem as you don't say what size tyres are fitted. Because of tyre price its just a longshot but has the previous owner fitted smaller tyres. Check the suitable tyre sizes for the rims and you could have a cheap fix. Just whilst in the UK go to secondhand tyre dealer and fit taller tyres on the rear and try it.

That's one of the first things I checked, they are the original size of 185 R 14.

I wasn't sure whether for reasons unknown that sidewall height was different for an M + S tyre?

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Snowbird

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If it was me I would go for either a 205 R 14 or a 215 R 14. As I said earlier try a secondhand tyre dealer and explain your problem. Just maybe you can try the 215 R 14 on the rear first and if its then too high geared go down to the 205s.
Just going up one size made a huge difference to my VW LT. A sympathetic secondhand tyre dealer should do you a deal taking the smaller tyres off you as a part ex.
 

wivvy's dad

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If it was me I would go for either a 205 R 14 or a 215 R 14. As I said earlier try a secondhand tyre dealer and explain your problem. Just maybe you can try the 215 R 14 on the rear first and if its then too high geared go down to the 205s.
Just going up one size made a huge difference to my VW LT. A sympathetic secondhand tyre dealer should do you a deal taking the smaller tyres off you as a part ex.


The width of the tyre will make negligible difference to the rolling circumference. And if I'm not mistaken, the aspect ratio of most - if not all - van tyres will be in the region of 70% anyway, so not really any way round that. You would need to source 15" or 16" rims to get tyres with a larger rolling circumference.

I thought Mercs ran 15" rims anyway.............!

Have you considered that you may have bought the wrong van for you? Just a thought.....
 

Snowbird

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The width of the tyre will make negligible difference to the rolling circumference. And if I'm not mistaken, the aspect ratio of most - if not all - van tyres will be in the region of 70% anyway, so not really any way round that. You would need to source 15" or 16" rims to get tyres with a larger rolling circumference.

I thought Mercs ran 15" rims anyway.............!

Have you considered that you may have bought the wrong van for you? Just a thought.....

We are not talking width with 205/215 we are talking circumference ie, height.
I also was of the opinion that older Mercs were on 15" wheels.

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wivvy's dad

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We are not talking width with 205/215 we are talking circumference ie, height.
I also was of the opinion that older Mercs were on 15" wheels.


Hate to disagree, but 205 or 215 is width

40/50/60 etc etc is aspect ratio, and therefore height.

So a static 205/60/15 is a taller tyre than a 205/40/15, therefore has a larger rolling circumference.

See here .....

Link Removed

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_code
 
OP
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The width of the tyre will make negligible difference to the rolling circumference. And if I'm not mistaken, the aspect ratio of most - if not all - van tyres will be in the region of 70% anyway, so not really any way round that. You would need to source 15" or 16" rims to get tyres with a larger rolling circumference.

I thought Mercs ran 15" rims anyway.............!

Have you considered that you may have bought the wrong van for you? Just a thought.....[/QUOTE]

That is a very good question, we have just sat and debated that for a while.

It came down to budget and which compromise to make.

For the next 5 years we have to work although we do work in both the UK and France and have a little flexibility. Oportunities to spend more than a week away wont occurr very often, so MH use for short trips 5 or 6 times each year are the best we can expect. To double our budget is not an option and would be a waste even if possible.

The compromise is only that we don't have the speed of more modern MH's, not to use it but rather it is there to be used if required.
This Hymer is not achieving comfortable speeds, but mainly not even speeds that others with similar vehicles can achieve, and apparently with ease too, this is the nub of the matter.
That's not to ignore the fact that we were always aware that these older MH do not travel as modern vehicles, it was taken into account.

In respect of all other aspects of the Hymer we have bought we are delighted, and that's probably an understatement, we already love it.

Have double checked on a German Hymer club website that 14" rims are correct for this model, and in about a week I'll have an original handbook too.
If as you both think that 15" rims were common on other/later models then that may be a simple route to create easier cruising, going up on tyre size/width is a last option due to space within the body for twin wheels with wider/taller tyres.

If any Hymer S class owners here have 15" wheel rims I would love to know, but there is still the mystery of the speedo reading error.

Thanks to you both as it has made us think hard about what to do, and providing we can arrive with reasonable cost at what others have we will be very happy.
 

wivvy's dad

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Momentarily forgot that it was a Hymer. In which case 14" rims would be appropriate. Although the speedo error would suggest otherwise - a smaller circumference making more revolutions over a set period would lead me to believe that the speedo would read fast.

Another thought - you mention gearbox linkage issues. Does your speedo drive come from the gearbox? That would set me a-thinkin'.........

Good luck in your quest.

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Jaws

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Just read the info..
Darrell has a slightly later Merc and his speedo is out the same amount.. But we know why

Several years ago, before his ownership, it was converted from an auto to manual box

Apparently the speedo was out after that mod but was never worried about..
 

Snowbird

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Hate to disagree, but 205 or 215 is width

40/50/60 etc etc is aspect ratio, and therefore height.

So a static 205/60/15 is a taller tyre than a 205/40/15, therefore has a larger rolling circumference.

See here .....

Link Removed

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_code

Have just been out to the shed and fished out a 185 R 14 C and a 205 R 14 C.
There is no mention on either of them of 60 or 70. The 205 is a good 2.5"taller than the 185. Neither is on a rim so that's a strange phenomenon.
Maybe light truck tyres are measured differently than car tyres. I agree that we normally see 185/75 15 or something similar but neither of these has the /75 on them.
 

G4GMO

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After all the generous input here, a couple of days consideration of the journey to here in France, and a few simple checks around the vehicle, I now have an idea on how to solve some if not all of the problems.

It's a Hymer 570 1992 on a Merc 410D base. 42,000 miles. Gearbox has 4th & 5th gear transposed which made for a miserable journey. MH hasn't travelled very far each year, possibly since new. Can't ask any practical questions of seller as it's an estate sale.

The gearbox selection problem looks to have an answer, but it does appear to have the original? gear ratios, they just appeared in the wrong order.
I'm going to look for the standard ratio for 4th and 5th and check them out.

Now know that the highest speed diff ratio is fitted (1 : 4.111) giving a tested top speed with this MH model of 66 mph and 68 mph when used with a van.

I know at the moment the MH can't get close to that but there was a small improvement in top speed after driving the 550 miles to here (quote above spot on). Also acceleration uphill was markedly better.

The MH looks well cared for with all the obvious signs of maintainance, but lack of use can be a disaster as we all know.

We want to cruise at about 55mph but with the option of getting to 65 mph if neccessary, this plainly isn't possible at the moment.
It's obvious from others with a similar set-up that our MH is at least 10 mph slower than theirs.

So the next trip back to France and if weather is permitting I'll check all the filters, alter the gear selector, use a Forte injection cleaner and see where that puts the perfomance.

In the mean time as per Snowbird and pappajohn, I'll check though a contact the possibilty of getting taller tyres and rims to fit within the MH body, plus the advantage it will create.

Two things still puzzle though. A 15% over reading on the speedo, this is a Mercedes for goodness sake. Even if the engine could produce more power it has to rev higher to go faster, to my ear the revs were high enough for that engine. It may be a good idea to borrow a clip on rev counter ( is that possible on diesel? ) to check at what rpm it sounds too much to me.

The tyres all round are as new, that's as new this year not new as in no mileage but fitted for years. They are all M+ S tyres. Would these have a lower side wall height and what is the reason for fitting them as a year round tyre, is it moving on grass, price?

Sorry this is so long, but I'm determined to get to the bottom of this and go about it the right way.
This is motorhome FUN but the help here for MH problems is superb, but I must have a sense of humour, my favourite actor is Chevy Chase

I'm with the suggestion that it may be a worn linkage problem and you'll obviously be checking that out first. As for top speed, I haven't quite :Blush: wound it up to the limit but I'm 99% certain we have managed the UK motorway speed limit easily and held it, not unbearably, for a while if my satnav speedo function is to be believed. So a little surprised at your reckoning of 65 mph max. The engine does sound like it's running at quite high revs anyway which I believe is a combination of it being a 5 cylinder and the fact that it is virtually in the cab. I'm assuming yours has the 2.9L 5 cylinder and not the 2.4L 4 cylinder.

Standard rim size for this vehicle is 14" and I'm not sure of the consequences of using non standard size wheels/tyres, you may need to check with your insurance. I see little advantage and some risks.

Having a turbo would be an advantage but I have no wish to spend the money on having one professionally fitted. My only concern on having one fitted is what stresses would it put on the engine, especially an engine like mine that already has 140000 km under it's belt. I prefer the known reliability of the normally aspirated engine over the unknown reliability after retro fitting a turbo. However I have read of many cases where it has been done with much improved performance.
 

Jaws

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Have just been out to the shed and fished out a 185 R 14 C and a 205 R 14 C.
There is no mention on either of them of 60 or 70. The 205 is a good 2.5"taller than the 185. Neither is on a rim so that's a strange phenomenon.
Maybe light truck tyres are measured differently than car tyres. I agree that we normally see 185/75 15 or something similar but neither of these has the /75 on them.

A lot of tyres that are full profile do not have the % markings on them.. ( After all, not a lot of point putting, for instance, 205/100/15 ! )

remember, that 60 70 or whatever number is the height shown as a percentage of the width
 
OP
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Just read the info..
Darrell has a slightly later Merc and his speedo is out the same amount.. But we know why

Several years ago, before his ownership, it was converted from an auto to manual box

Apparently the speedo was out after that mod but was never worried about..

That's very interesting as on the brief look I had the front section (or maybe the entire?) of the propshaft had a paper part No. label on it which may tie in with the new/recon gearbox?

Haven't looked deeply enough to check whether the gearchange has a new fitting too but will in a few weeks.

I always thought that the manual gearbox was an option on these old S models, and most seen for sale in Germany are autos or that's how it appears to me.

From G4GMO I'm with the suggestion that it may be a worn linkage problem and you'll obviously be checking that out first. As for top speed, I haven't quite :Blush: wound it up to the limit but I'm 99% certain we have managed the UK motorway speed limit easily and held it, not unbearably, for a while if my satnav speedo function is to be believed. So a little surprised at your reckoning of 65 mph max. The engine does sound like it's running at quite high revs anyway which I believe is a combination of it being a 5 cylinder and the fact that it is virtually in the cab. I'm assuming yours has the 2.9L 5 cylinder and not the 2.4L 4 cylinder.

Standard rim size for this vehicle is 14" and I'm not sure of the consequences of using non standard size wheels/tyres, you may need to check with your insurance. I see little advantage and some risks.

Having a turbo would be an advantage but I have no wish to spend the money on having one professionally fitted. My only concern on having one fitted is what stresses would it put on the engine, especially an engine like mine that already has 140000 km under it's belt. I prefer the known reliability of the normally aspirated engine over the unknown reliability after retro fitting a turbo. However I have read of many cases where it has been done with much improved performance.

I took the max speed figures from the Hymer catalogue, maybe your one goes particularly well? It also accentuates the difference from yours to ours.

Yes we have a 5 cyl non turbo standard engine.

Agree that the last thing to do is to increase tyre size, in particular with 7 brand new tyres fitted and of course insurance issues.

Think that this model was obviously capable of greater speeds than we are achieving at the moment, and that is the first avanue to explore. What surprised me apart from understanding the gear slection problem was the engine sounded as sweet as any older diesel I have ever heard, that's at ticking over and running at it's comfortable speed. We didn't use any oil over 550 miles and no water. The mpg was an actual 24.6 mpg, so I don't think there is a major issue.

The speedo mis-reading may now have an answer, thanks to wivvy's dad. I'll check the teeth on the speedo drive gear and see if I can find what it should be.

Thanks again to all, your encouragement has helped us a lot we were a bit despondant a few days ago.

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Here's an update on a slower than usual 1992 Hymer S670.

Brought the MH back to the UK this week but with some minor changes and service items looked at. The performance difference was quite marked on the return trip.

Top speed is now unknown, went to 105 kph and still slowly accelerating without too much effort. This wasn't deliberate, the MH just continued accelerating without me noticing.

The engine noise at the previous indicated 92 kph (which was about the maximum after a 550 miles run) is now less, the engine sounds less harsh.

As we were travelling a little faster the fuel consumption had dropped to 22 mpg.

Changed the engine oil from a mineral 15/20w 40/50 to a semi synthetic 10w 40.
Changed oil, main fuel and air filters. There is an inline pre fuel filter but coun't get hold of one in time for the trip, so old one remains.

Checked tyre pressures for the first time, all tyres were under inflated, a pair of rears by 17 psi.

Removed an auxulliary pair of bulky spotlights from under the front bumper, removed a katherine mast aerial from roof.

Replaced the large roof light with the later one, much more aerodynamic.

Used an engine cleaner just before the oil change, and a fuel addative at maximum strength, both were Forte.

Added maybe 200 kgs compared to the journey out to France.

My feelings are that no one thing has made the difference, certainly not being heavier.

Possibly the biggest difference to perfomance is thinner oil, air and fuel filter, and tyre inflation.

There are a few other items that need further attention, so hope for a little more improvement in pull, higher comfotable cruising speed, and economy.

The gearbox has the wrong oil, an EP80 is in there and should be Dexron II. This will make the gearbox faster in used and less drag.

The fuel -pre-filter to be changed.

Change the rear axle oil for fresh oil although I don't see a perfomance advantage from this.

On advice from another S 670 owner to check the fuel pump timing, aparently it can retard a little after the engine is run in.

We are very pleased with the major improvement to the perfomance as it creates more confidence to drive with some acceleration if required. We will still travel at 50 - 55 mph but don't slow too much for hills now, just a much nicer feel to driving.

All this was achieved with paying attention to maintainence detail in the main, using quality materials (Mercedes fliters and Shell oil). It has changed a dissapointing drive to a now totally acdeptable one even if still quite slow.

The part that puzzles me is it is quieter even at higher speeds than possible before???

ps: The MoT emissions were averaged out at 1.08 which I thought quite remarkable for a 20 years old diesel design.
 

JJ

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As a proud and pleased owner of a 1987 Hymer 660 with the 5 cylinder engine and auto box I can't really get my head around this quest for more speed...

We did a 2000 kms trip to Marjal and back... never more than 80 kms (50mph) and never experienced a need to go faster...

We are all heading to certain death... why speed up?

JJ :Cool:
 

jonandshell

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Chill!

All this talk of top speeds of motorhomes puzzles me. Have we got some Top Gear fans in our midst?

What's the rush? You are all on your holidays, not sales reps late for an appointment!::bigsmile:

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Problem is modern cars.

The increase in tech and engineering has made them all quiet running, 4 seater race cars nowadays.
We all get used to driving them, until one day , if you get a chance, try a morris 1000 or simular.
It is a shock to realize that there is NO accelation,NO brakes,NO handling on them !:Eeek:
We all bomb around in our quiet hot rods doing 80 mph+ ::bigsmile:
They tend to leave older 80`s and 90`s motorhomes standing on the motorways!
A big modern motorhome keeps up because it also has the latest tecno in it.
I drive along with the hgv chaps 56 to 60:thumb:
 
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As a proud and pleased owner of a 1987 Hymer 660 with the 5 cylinder engine and auto box I can't really get my head around this quest for more speed...

We did a 2000 kms trip to Marjal and back... never more than 80 kms (50mph) and never experienced a need to go faster...

We are all heading to certain death... why speed up?

JJ :Cool:


Read my lips JJ "We will still travel at 50 - 55 mph" but I'll excuse you as you are in love...

Replace the word speed with efficiency, that and safety are the points I'm trying to get over.

If you have ample power to manoeuvre if another makes a fool of themselves then it's safer for all, but it doesn't mean that you have to use the power.
Also being able to take a hill in 3rd gear instead of 2nd is a bonus, just more pleasant rather than faster.

Our MH was under used for at least 7 years and maybe more for all we know (still only 68,000 kms after 20 years). It is a well known fact that under-use clogs up all sorts of things and with fuel the price it is efficiency is very desirable, well it is for us.
I didn't have to modify any part just carry out a normal service, which is good no?

I only updated this mini saga so other could read that it doesn't have to be complicated to achieve the best you can get from your MH.
 

JJ

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Read my lips!

...bit strong hey?

Do you mean as in...

"Read my lips... I did not have sex with that women..."

Please forgive me for not studying every word in a seven page thread titled "what to do if your camper is too slow..."

Stupidly I thought you wanted to make it go faster... I will try to pay more attention next time...

Sorry...


JJ :Cool:

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bigmillie

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Quote by veevee The gearbox has the wrong oil, an EP80 is in there and should be Dexron II. This will make the gearbox faster in used and less drag.

EP80 is a manual gearbox oil Dexron II is a automatic transmission fluid

A while ago somebody had the same problem with the 4/5 gears crossed I took photos of my selectors to show him will have a look back and see if I an find them

Opps it was yourself :Blush::Blush:
 
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Quote by veevee The gearbox has the wrong oil, an EP80 is in there and should be Dexron II. This will make the gearbox faster in used and less drag.

EP80 is a manual gearbox oil Dexron II is a automatic transmission fluid

A while ago somebody had the same problem with the 4/5 gears crossed I took photos of my selectors to show him will have a look back and see if I an find them

Opps it was yourself :Blush::Blush:

Yes you are right about most of it, except ATF Dexron II is also used for some manual gearboxes, really.

Just check any oil chart for Mercedes 410D 1992 manual gearbox, it's ATF.

The 4th and 5th gear transposed was me until last week. The connecting rod between the gear lever base and the selector arm for 4/5 was the wrong one for the model. There are two rod types, wrong one fitted for reasons unknown. Mercedes also have the wrong parts diagrams matched to the right part No's for this gearbox too which didn't help.
 
OP
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Read my lips!

...bit strong hey?

Do you mean as in...

"Read my lips... I did not have sex with that women..."

Please forgive me for not studying every word in a seven page thread titled "what to do if your camper is too slow..."

Stupidly I thought you wanted to make it go faster... I will try to pay more attention next time...

Sorry...


JJ :Cool:

No JJ, I meant please read my last email correctly, it was the one you referred to, and yes you are forgiven...

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bigmillie

Free Member
May 6, 2008
397
136
Camberley Surrey
Funster No
2,538
MH
Mercedes Classic C class
Exp
On/off since 1966
Yes you are right about most of it, except ATF Dexron II is also used for some manual gearboxes, really.

Just check any oil chart for Mercedes 410D 1992 manual gearbox, it's ATF.

The 4th and 5th gear transposed was me until last week. The connecting rod between the gear lever base and the selector arm for 4/5 was the wrong one for the model. There are two rod types, wrong one fitted for reasons unknown. Mercedes also have the wrong parts diagrams matched to the right part No's for this gearbox too which didn't help.

Glad you got the gearbox linkage sorted out I see what you mean about the gearbox oil

http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=75496

Some do some dont :whatthe:
 
OP
OP
V
Jul 4, 2010
1,194
804
Essex / central France
Funster No
12,437
MH
Hymer Star Line 680
Exp
9 years
I have an oil catalogue, it lists ATF quite clearly without exception for the 410D. Also managed to get an original handbook for the Mercedes base vehicle, it also lists ATF for the model I have. The handbook was printed in 1991, my vehicle is 1992 so I guess it's about right.

I ran a garage workshop many years ago, about the time that some manufacturers were changing from EP oil to ATF for manual gearboxes. We were all so sceptical that often EP oils were used even if ATF was recommended, but eventually we were all won over.
 

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