speeding conviction ,any advice or thoughts please (1 Viewer)

[Deleted member 29692]

Thanks for your replies...
I will get a letter off to the police force who issued the notice asking for clarification.
And whenever I receive a reply ill get back on this thread..
Once again thanks
Andy .

If you do have proof that your unladen weight would be below 3.05t I would include copies with the letter.

They won't be interested otherwise.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Would only apply if there was an " offence " committed in the first place.


You then claim for all your costs & inconvenience.

Wouldn't want them working for me if Id been illegally executed.

In reality the dvla should have picked it up when adding points to licenece as I assume they get details of the offence/vehicle etc ; & don't just take the word of the court ? Then again they probably get so many ,no one even looks.

The problem is that the fixed penalty has been accepted and paid.......... it doesn't matter if the "offence" is or is not real. It has been accepted, paid, filed and archived. I'd be quite happy having a firm of specialist motoring solicitors on my side in court for a motoring offence, but as you say probably not a good idea to have them on a capital case

Fixed penalties don't go anywhere near a court; it is an administrative process, and by accepting the fixed penalty the administrative loop has been closed.

As I said before, worth a shout but don't hold your breath......

 

[Terry]

Nice one ANDY don.t forget to let us know what the outcome is -good luck
terry

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[andy63]

If you do have proof that your unladen weight would be below 3.05t I would include copies with the letter.

They won't be interested otherwise.

Thanks nick. .. my first letter was just going to seek clarification on the whole thing...and ask them to confirm that I was in fact treated as a light goods... It appears that way but I often miss the point lol...
As for the unladen weight... I have a weigh bridge ticket that shows the van weight at around time I completed it...That comes in at 2880kg.. she is a T350 transit... That's with nearly full tank fuel me and some belongings on board...which would not need to be there if you were looking to find the unladen weight and it was still under the 3050kg specified.. the mass in service on the V5 is2005kg but suspect that has little relevance after the conversion...so that's what I would use as an in the event of a dispute... as dave said they will most probably tell me to bugger off but as many more have said ...Nothing to loose now.
Andy.

 

[Stealaway]

Not necessarily.

It's a silly quirk in the law - the speed limits for motor caravans are dependent on their unladen weight. Less than 3.05t unladen you can do 60, over 3.05t you're restricted to 50. Motor caravans are the only vehicle class restricted based on this weight.

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

That's unladen, not MIRO. No converter as far as I'm aware records this weight so you will have a bugger of a job trying to prove you were under, even if you happened to be. Your only chance might be is if the stated MIRO is less than that.

From your avatar it looks like you have a PVC so it might be.

No idea if you can change your mind after accepting the fixed penalty though.

Thanks for the link that has made it clearer.
One thing - is the A1 motor way or dual carriage way and is it obvious when it changes?

 

[andy63]

One thing - is the A1 motor way or dual carriage way and is it obvious when it changes

Hi the A1 going north front Newcastle changes numerous times from dual carriageway.usually signed as 70mph to long stretches of single carriageway usually 60mph.. you do need to keep your wits about you..
On my journey up that road since I kept looking for a 50 mph speed restriction in the area I was caught in and never saw one..
I think I know why now...8t was the vehicle that was the restricting factor even 5hough the sinage is for 60mph..
Andy.

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[mikebeaches]

Based on the information Andy has provided, this appears to be an administrative error on the part of the enforcement authorities. As a consequence the fixed penalty and points should be withdrawn.

For what it is worth, my advice would be if you do not have any success at the first attempt, don't give up. But keep at it until the matter is satisfactorily resolved.

In my opinion, the fact you have paid the penalty etc is of no consequence in this instance.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Thanks for the link that has made it clearer.
One thing - is the A1 motor way or dual carriage way and is it obvious when it changes?

It's the A1(M) when it's a motorway and has signage to suit. When it's the A1 it has normal A road signage.

And it's single carriageway for a lot of the time

 

[andy63]

Based on the information Andy has provided, this appears to be an administrative error on the part of the enforcement authorities. As a consequence the fixed penalty and points should be withdrawn.

Thanks for that thought... by administrative error are you thinking that they should have applied some other code other than an SP10 or they overlooked the fact I am a registered m/ caravan..
Andy

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[Zigisla]

Checking my V5C, I do not have unladen weight but i do have, G - "Mass in Service" at 2905. Is this the same does anyone know?

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Checking my V5C, I do not have unladen weight but i do have, G - "Mass in Service" at 2905. Is this the same does anyone know?

No, that's the same as MIRO so includes some fuel, some water and the driver etc.

The unladen weight is just that - the vehicle itself with no fuel, no driver, nothing on board at all.

That's why using this figure for motor caravans but no other vehicles is so stupid - motor caravans are pretty much the only type of vehicle where this particular figure isn't readily available.

 

[Zigisla]

No, that's the same as MIRO so includes some fuel, some water and the driver etc.

The unladen weight is just that - the vehicle itself with no fuel, no driver, nothing on board at all.
Using this info, if it includes some fluids and a driver, can it be assumed that I would still be under the weight for the restricted speed and no need for both weights to be displayed on the V5C?

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[Deleted member 29692]

Using this info, if it includes some fluids and a driver, can it be assumed that I would still be under the weight for the restricted speed and no need for both weights to be displayed on the V5C?

Yes, I would say that if you're under 3.05t with a MIRO set up then it's pretty safe to assume that you would be under this weight unladen.

You're problem might be in getting Mr Plod to see it like this if you ever get an SP10 ticket.

Andy's about to find out how easy that is for us.

 

[gus-lopez]

the mass in service on the V5 is2005kg but suspect that has little relevance after the conversion...so that's what I would use as an in the event of a dispute... as dave said they will most probably tell me to bugger off but as many more have said ...Nothing to loose now.
Andy.

If that is what is on log book then enclose it & ask how it is possible to be over 3,050 ? It is what is on log book that will count & if the Mass in service or Mass in running order is under then you cannot be fined.

Thanks for that thought... by administrative error are you thinking that they should have applied some other code other than an SP10 or they overlooked the fact I am a registered m/ caravan..
Andy

they overlooked the fact that you are a registered <MH. I.e. should be sacked for not doing there job properly.& whoever processed it at the dvla.

Yes, I would say that if you're under 3.05t with a MIRO set up then it's pretty safe to assume that you would be under this weight unladen.

You're problem might be in getting Mr Plod to see it like this if you ever get an SP10 ticket.

Andy's about to find out how easy that is for us.

This is why you should always assume that anything they touch is incorrect. You'll normally find out afterwards that you are right.

 

[andy63]

Andy's about to find out how easy that is for us

Well it isn't looking hopeful for me as I just accepted the notice at the time... and truthfully didn't look into it ...
I've spoken to the issuing force who have said if I had raised it at the time it may be different but there is nothing they can do now..
They received information back from the dvla which indicated I was a Ford transit van... my V5 shows body type as a motor caravan . So there appears to be a problem there...
I'll still put it in writing and may talk to a solicitor but not that hopeful...
Police say the reply will be as they have told me over phone... ie nothing can be done now....
Andy..

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[Puddleduck]

I would still write Andy @andy63 Then you have something in writing from the police which, with luck, will show they were wrong even if you don't get the points off and the fine back. And then go to the DVLA and your MP. If you kick up enough stink you might get something done. Oh, and send a copy to your insurance company

 

[Deleted member 29692]

I don't mean to be negative here and I don't know the answer but is there possibly anything in the T&Cs of a fixed PCN whereby you agree and accept that if you pay it you are accepting that it was correctly issued and therefore closing the matter?

I wouldn't be surprised if there was something in there putting the responsibility for flagging incorrectly issued ones onto the people they are issued to before they pay.

 

[andy63]

I don't mean to be negative here and I don't know the answer but is there possibly anything in the T&Cs of a fixed PCN whereby you agree and accept that if you pay it you are accepting that it was correctly issued and therefore closing the matter?

I think that's the case..and that's just what the police are saying...
Once you accept it there is no way back..my lack of care and understanding at the time... as they said on the phone I should have read the notice more carefully..
Still think it's a bit unfair as there was a similar neglect on their part to send the notice out..ie a lack of checking ...but I was only one of hundreds most probably...
I'll still write and take some advice if I can find someone who knows the law...
Andy

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[mikebeaches]

I think that's the case..and that's just what the police are saying...
Once you accept it there is no way back..my lack of care and understanding at the time... as they said on the phone I should have read the notice more carefully..
Still think it's a bit unfair as there was a similar neglect on their part to send the notice out..ie a lack of checking ...but I was only one of hundreds most probably...
I'll still write and take some advice if I can find someone who knows the law...
Andy

I don't mean to sound cynical, but why am I not surprised you received a 'brush off' from your initial inquiry.

At the end of the day it is your choice, but if it were me I would continue to pursue the matter with all vigour.

As I understand, you did not commit an offence and were driving within the law. And I gather you have all the evidence to prove it. Do not be concerned that in the first instance you accepted the FPN.

From your further response, it appears BOTH the police and DVLA are at fault. I've seen mention by another poster that you might need to get your MP involved - if you can't otherwise achieve a satisfactory outcome - which sounds a good idea. Also don't rule out involving the media - not sure if any of the motorhome press has sufficient teeth?

Are you a member of the AA, RAC, Caravan Club, or Camping and Caravanning Club - if so might be worth checking if they would be willing to help in taking up your case.

 

[Andy in Lossie]

As above, I would fight it until I was blue in the face as you didn't commit an offence (which is why the fine and points were issued) only made a mistake in assuming that the police and DVLA knew their stuff. As has been said earlier, they both made a mistake as well, why should you be the only one punished?

 

[gus-lopez]

Well it isn't looking hopeful for me as I just accepted the notice at the time... and truthfully didn't look into it ...
I've spoken to the issuing force who have said if I had raised it at the time it may be different but there is nothing they can do now..
They received information back from the dvla which indicated I was a Ford transit van... my V5 shows body type as a motor caravan . So there appears to be a problem there...
I'll still put it in writing and may talk to a solicitor but not that hopeful...
Police say the reply will be as they have told me over phone... ie nothing can be done now....
Andy..

That is why you should always ask for the photo.

I think that's the case..and that's just what the police are saying...
Once you accept it there is no way back..my lack of care and understanding at the time... as they said on the phone I should have read the notice more carefully..
Still think it's a bit unfair as there was a similar neglect on their part to send the notice out..ie a lack of checking ...but I was only one of hundreds most probably...
I'll still write and take some advice if I can find someone who knows the law...
Andy

" .my lack of care and understanding at the time... as they said on the phone I should have read the notice more carefully.."

If they said that to me on the phone I'd have hit the roof.
It isn't your job to read incorrect tat that they send but there job to make 100% sure that what they are sending is correct.
You, along with the rest ,of us are paying these idiots to ensure that THEY should pay more attention to what they are dishing out along with the dvla. It is THEIR responsibility to ensure that what is given out is correct otherwise they are no different to criminal scum.
I agree with the others ,I'd never let it go. As you have said if it was just a fine, like we know it is for revenue raising, fair enough but it is the points that have been illegally attached to your licence & are costing you money.

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[DanielFord]

The primary purpose of the safety camera partnerships is to collect fines, they aren't particularly interested in the legality of the issued fines. The fact that you accepted the conditional offer of fixed penalty I don't think is a salient point, you (perhaps foolishly) expected that the powers that be were doing their jobs correctly.
Nick Freeman, AKA Mr. Loophole, manages to secure a 99% success rate, which would indicate that in 99% of cases the authorities have failed to correctly do their jobs.
I would say that the police responsibility in this case has ended, although they may have issued the fine, their job is now done. Remember, the police investigate crime, they don't prosecute it. In the case of Speed cameras, the police involvement is zero, apart from the 'on behalf of Chief Constable' bit on the NIP! Hence why I suggested speaking to a lawyer, you have accepted a penalty for an offence which you did not commit. They would be much better able to advise you how to seek an appeal.

 

[andy63]

Just spoken to a Scottish Law firm solicitor who specialise in these matters...
He has confirmed that there is nothing that can be done now..
So that will be the end of that for me...
Thanks for the replies and advice... saves me some stress I suppose..
Andy

 

[DavidG58]

That's a shame Andy, but for a bit there you were talking yourself in to a without due care and attention as well, if only on the paperwork front

Worth a try and a good discussion point on here,

also a good reminder for all of us who are over 3 tons that the speed limits are lower

50 on derestricted roads not 60 and 60 on dual carriageways not 70, easily overlooked

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[DanielFord]

50 on derestricted roads not 60 and 60 on dual carriageways not 70, easily overlooked

No matter how close the Audi driver behind you gets!

 

[chaser]

That's a shame Andy, but for a bit there you were talking yourself in to a without due care and attention as well, if only on the paperwork front

Worth a try and a good discussion point on here,

also a good reminder for all of us who are over 3 tons that the speed limits are lower

50 on derestricted roads not 60 and 60 on dual carriageways not 70, easily overlooked

Is that 3 or 3.5

 

[andy63]

Is that 3 or 3.5

Think it's 3050kg unladen weight.lol

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[Photo4x4]

Interesting discussion but the outcome was as I thought it would be.

However...speeding convictions can be quashed...

I remember that many years ago the A45 between Birmingham and Coventry (a dual-carriageway) was signposted as being 60 mph. Thousands of people were booked for speeding on that stretch of road but after one driver checked the regulations and found that the speeding signs were further apart than specified by law they all had their convictions quashed. I'm not sure what happened to their fines though. BTW the signs were sited properly shortly afterwards so you won't get away with that now.

Also more recently:
UP TO 3,000 motorists will have their speeding convictions quashed after council officials admitted wrongly erecting 30mph speed limit signs on a road while the original 40mph limit was still in force.
Gwynedd Council put up 30mph signs on the A5 at Maesgeirchen near Bangor without revoking the 1981 order making it a 40mph road.

The problem here is that a FP is NOT a fine or conviction as the recipient can opt to be dealt with by a court.

Having agreed to pay the fee and having done so the matter is concluded as the solicitors have said.

As for the police saying that there is nothing that can be done about it...in the words of Mandy Rice Davies... "Well they would say that wouldn't they?" I paraphrase of course. However in this case they appear to be correct.

KH

 

[The Wino]

If you can't get the money back or points off you you could probably sue the police for neglect. I bet a smartass solicitor would sort it it just depends if its worth the money and hassle.

 

[Ricardoe]

http://www.pepipoo.com/Speeding.htm Have a look,sometimes there's some good advice.

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