"Snoopers Charter" OR "National Security"? (2 Viewers)

[Paddywack]

The only time data relating to individuals will be gone through is when there is intelligence which arouses suspicion about them. That's what happens already, and always has done, with information stored by other means.

Or when the telecoms company holding the data is hacked?

 

[chaser]

The only time data relating to individuals will be gone through is when there is intelligence which arouses suspicion about them. That's what happens already, and always has done, with information stored by other means.

How do they find out which individuals are suspicious if they don't check on everyone.

 

[GJH]

Or when the telecoms company holding the data is hacked?

There is never any excuse for companies (whether telecoms or otherwise) not holding data securely.
That, though, is no reason for increasing the risk to the security of this country by preventing the law enforcement services from using the appropriate tools.

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[GJH]

How do they find out which individuals are suspicious if they don't check on everyone.

The same way they do today and have done for millennia.

 

[chaser]

On the other hand , now it's been all over the news, is anyone building a bomb going to put it on the Internet

 

[Paddywack]

How do they find out which individuals are suspicious if they don't check on everyone.

Simples they'll look for those with the foreign names.

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[GJH]

Let's take an example from local government.
One of the ways in which Trading Standards tracked rogue car salesmen (typically those pretending to be private sellers) was to buy copies of local papers and look through them for adverts which used the same phone numbers over a period of time.
Nowadays similar criminals use the likes of eBay and other on-line sales sites to try to scam people. Wouldn't it be rather stupid to prevent Trading Standards from researching such sites just because the information is held on-line rather than in print?

The same principle obtains whatever the investigation.

 

[Paddywack]

There is never any excuse for companies (whether telecoms or otherwise) not holding data securely.
That, though, is no reason for increasing the risk to the security of this country by preventing the law enforcement services from using the appropriate tools.

Ironically Snowden has demonstrated how secure data is anywhere, thankfully he did it for the right reasons in exposing the unlawful collection of OUR data by governments, if he had had an ulterior motive things would be a lot messier now.

Theft by employees of data is commonplace, if as this act seeks to ensure, data is stored for 12 months, no one can guarantee its security.

 

[chaser]

Let's take an example from local government.
One of the ways in which Trading Standards tracked rogue car salesmen (typically those pretending to be private sellers) was to buy copies of local papers and look through them for adverts which used the same phone numbers over a period of time.
Nowadays similar criminals use the likes of eBay and other on-line sales sites to try to scam people. Wouldn't it be rather stupid to prevent Trading Standards from researching such sites just because the information is held on-line rather than in print?

The same principle obtains whatever the investigation.

No it doesn't! The first example is people putting stuff out for others to see, same with ebay, what is proposed now is looking at stuff that isn't put out for others to see.

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[Don Quixote]

How do they find out which individuals are suspicious if they don't check on everyone.

Buy me a beer at the next meet and I will tell you then......................... I kill you!

 

[Langtoftlad]

I must admit I admire @GJH 's unswerving belief & trust in government & politicians good intentions & capabilities .
I wish I had that faith, sadly I don't .
Power corrupts, & the law of unintended consequences.
Freedoms once taken are mighty hard to win back .

 

[chaser]

I must admit I admire @GJH 's unswerving belief & trust in government & politicians good intentions & capabilities .
I wish I had that faith, sadly I don't .
Power corrupts, & the law of unintended consequences.
Freedoms once taken are mighty hard to win back .

My sentiment exactly, just didn't want to be the one to say it.

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[Langtoftlad]

Buy me a beer at the next meet and I will tell you then......................... I kill you!

I love "Achmed" .

 

[Don Quixote]

I love "Achmed" .

It just makes you smile every time.

 

[gus-lopez]

Pete .. I have to assume you're actually joking.. maybe I just missed it..
You're not really comparing living in the UK to living in North Korea are you?

No ,it is far worse.

No problem with it at all.
Law abiding citizens nothing to worry about, even the non law abiding citizens in most respects won't need to worry.

Keeping our country safe from terrorists, priceless.

If they did what they are paid to do properly the scum wouldn't already be in the UK.

I can not see how it can work this snooping thing.
You could view websites via a wifi connection any place in the world, that is not thro your ISP
You could go to an internet cafe, if you can find one these days,
You could use a pay as you go phone, or its sim in an Ipad,
Maybe even use a VPN like I do out of the UK to use I Player, its makes the computer
act as if the UK
Use satellite internet.

or maybe somebody knows better

Yep my wife does it all. Even has to keep written sheets of all passwords/names that she goes under. Runs into 00's & 00's .

What private data? When we provide registration data to DVLA we agree that it can be released in the proper circumstances provided by law. The whole point is that the data are not private in those circumstances.

There should be no release of it whatsoever. If they concentrated on doing what they are paid for & getting right from the start perhaps people would actually begin to think they were actually useful . It beggars belief that an organisation created in 1965 to offer jobs in a depressed region should be hated from the word go for being a useless shower of idle, lazy, barstewards ( fortunately we still had local offices so we could get away with not dealing with the idiots ) & , 50 years later has lurched to the complete opposite , poking it's nose into everything , badly; attempting to coerce customers using fear & intimidation & , when confonted & called out, actually disappear from their side of any dialogue/conversation hoping you'll disappear & all the whilst still being utterly useless !

The daft thing about this is the only folks affected are law abiding citizens. Terrorists and criminals long ago moved to the dark web and using burn phones so will remain unmonitored.

And all those saying you have nowt to hide, just remember this data will be held by telecoms companies on HMG behalf - Talk Talk hack anyone?

And finally ask yourself why at the time they are seeking greater scrutiny of our behaviour they are trying to shut down FOI requests - you know the law that allowed us to find out about their wrongdoings and expenses claims etc?

Exactly.

If these so called intelligent elite had done there job properly in the first place,there would be no need for this Snoopers Charter.

What l think most of us are forgetting is that we are at war and if these measures are necessary then so be it............

But until we start killing the opposition we are wasting our time.

On the other hand , now it's been all over the news, is anyone building a bomb going to put it on the Internet

Why ,if I feel like building a bomb just to see how it would be done should I be considered a criminal ?
It is like the gun & knife laws. Nothing to do with security of the citizen/safety etc; it is about control. They do not want you to have them. So the decent ,legal, honest & law -abiding are left with the criminals & the security forces both armed to the teeth & each as dangerous as the other.

Why are all these countries spouting the same old "it's for the citizens safety" ? Even here we have Roger Whittakers brother, ( the lesser talented one at that ) using his overall majority to steamroller dodgy legislation through without debate using "decree's" ; which in fact are an instrument supposedly for terrorism legislation & we have the ****wit passing 'citizen gagging laws' with it!!!

Even that last paragraph I've written under said legislation renders me liable to prosecution under said act. They are ALL at it. It is all about control.

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[GJH]

Ironically Snowden has demonstrated how secure data is anywhere, thankfully he did it for the right reasons in exposing the unlawful collection of OUR data by governments, if he had had an ulterior motive things would be a lot messier now.

Theft by employees of data is commonplace, if as this act seeks to ensure, data is stored for 12 months, no one can guarantee its security.

So what is changing? Only the quantity of data stored that is all.

No it doesn't! The first example is people putting stuff out for others to see, same with ebay, what is proposed now is looking at stuff that isn't put out for others to see.

Just think about that a minute. What that actually says is that if people don't want information about their crimes to be seen by anyone then we have to do all we can to prevent the police &c from doing s

I must admit I admire @GJH 's unswerving belief & trust in government & politicians good intentions & capabilities .
I wish I had that faith, sadly I don't .
Power corrupts, & the law of unintended consequences.
Freedoms once taken are mighty hard to win back .

What freedoms? The powers to investigate have been there for years and were only compromised by the HRA.
I don't have an "unswerving belief & trust in government & politicians good intentions & capabilities", far from it. What I do have is professional knowledge of the investigatory powers available to various bodies, the way they are currently regulated by RIPA and the need to encompass Internet activity in that regulation.

 

[GJH]

There should be no release of it whatsoever. If they concentrated on doing what they are paid for & getting right from the start perhaps people would actually begin to think they were actually useful . It beggars belief that an organisation created in 1965 to offer jobs in a depressed region should be hated from the word go for being a useless shower of idle, lazy, barstewards ( fortunately we still had local offices so we could get away with not dealing with the idiots ) & , 50 years later has lurched to the complete opposite , poking it's nose into everything , badly; attempting to coerce customers using fear & intimidation & , when confonted & called out, actually disappear from their side of any dialogue/conversation hoping you'll disappear & all the whilst still being utterly useless !

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is as succinct a summing up of a complete misunderstanding of the subject under discussion as one might hope to see

 

[JJ]

Motorhome Chat or U Shaped Lounge?

JJ

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[GJH]

Motorhome Chat or U Shaped Lounge?

JJ

Never noticed that Mind you, I never look at which "room" a thread is posted in, just trust that the OP in each case chooses the appropriate one

 

[chaser]

Back in the 80s and 90s I loved computers and Internet and did my damdest to get everyone I knew on to it , I was laughed at most of the time among villagers and farmers, who said its a load of rubbish and won't catch on and now they are all on it , you can't farm without it now, can you believe that!
And the more it goes on the more I keep away from it, we are all being ruled by a screen in the corner.

 

[Judge Mental]

CCTV was supposed to make us more secure..instead it has been used as a revenue earner and criminalised a whole section of citizens...I use the word citizen loosely as we dont have a constitution!

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[Gromett]

I can not see how it can work this snooping thing.
You could view websites via a wifi connection any place in the world, that is not thro your ISP
You could go to an internet cafe, if you can find one these days,
You could use a pay as you go phone, or its sim in an Ipad,
Maybe even use a VPN like I do out of the UK to use I Player, its makes the computer
act as if the UK
Use satellite internet.

or maybe somebody knows better

All trackable and not beyond todays technology to do automatically. Unless you use a totally clean device that has never visited a site before you will likely leave some trackable evidence behind. I could post lots of examples and techniques they can use today but it would end up being too long and too technical.

The only way to be safe from tracking is to not use the internet at all.

 

[The Wino]

CCTV was supposed to make us more secure..instead it has been used as a revenue earner and criminalised a whole section of citizens...I use the word citizen loosely as we dont have a constitution!

How has it been used as amoney earner don't understand unless you mean people not getting away so easily for doing things

 

[PeteH]

Whats the problem........ you have a mobile - it can be tracked without you knowing.... you have a computer - it can be tracked without you knowing...... you have a smart TV - it can be tracked/hacked without you knowing...... you walk down many streets in the UK ( most cameras in the world ) and you are being tracked without you knowing..........

But here is the facts.......... if you not doing anything wrong why oh why are you worried as they have no interest in you.
Surveillance of any kind is only going to get worse so in the end if they want to they will know what/when/how you are and what your doing.

If you don't like it! sell ALL you communications equipment, do not use credit cards, do not look up when walking in public, just go off grid. Many do this already.

That is very true. In the USA the "Minute-men" as they are known have been "off the grid" for Years, some old "Vet`s" since the Vietnam War. Quite often armed to the teeth, they live out in the wilderness and rarely If ever go near urban area`s. Generally "Uncle Sam" tends to ignore them unless they start into criminal activity.

Pete

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[GJH]

CCTV was supposed to make us more secure..instead it has been used as a revenue earner and criminalised a whole section of citizens...I use the word citizen loosely as we dont have a constitution!

How has it been used as amoney earner don't understand unless you mean people not getting away so easily for doing things

Money waster more like.
We have a 4 camera system at home as a deterrent to anyone with eyes on our van, a fairly low cost system which was sufficient VFM from our point of view because, as much as anything, we didn't have to really justify it.
I have, however, yet to see any real evidence of the VFM of publicly installed systems either from a professional point of view when I was working or as a citizen since.

 

[Don Quixote]

That is very true. In the USA the "Minute-men" as they are known have been "off the grid" for Years, some old "Vet`s" since the Vietnam War. Quite often armed to the teeth, they live out in the wilderness and rarely If ever go near urban area`s. Generally "Uncle Sam" tends to ignore them unless they start into criminal activity.

Pete

Pete, my signature states "I possess a device, in my pocket, that is capable of accessing the entirety of information known to man" - the mobile phone - try explain that to someone in the 50's and 60's that you can access the world from a small palm sized device and they would laugh at you.........
There lays the problem we have become so obsessed with being in contact 247 / 365 we forget quickly the same means to do that makes us trackable 247 / 365! like it or not.

 

[gus-lopez]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is as succinct a summing up of a complete misunderstanding of the subject under discussion as one might hope to see

Nothing to do with what is under discussion agreed,but as mentioned in a few posters threads ,deserved a kicking as I passed by.

I have, however, yet to see any real evidence of the VFM of publicly installed systems either from a professional point of view when I was working or as a citizen since.

Exactly . Designed to give control as many actually do not record nor does anyone watch them.

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[Paddywack]

Motorhome Chat or U Shaped Lounge?

JJ

Nooo if it goes to U shaped lounge us naughty boys aren't allowed to comment!

 

[Paddywack]

So what is changing? Only the quantity of data stored that is all.

Just think about that a minute. What that actually says is that if people don't want information about their crimes to be seen by anyone then we have to do all we can to prevent the police &c from doing s

What freedoms? The powers to investigate have been there for years and were only compromised by the HRA.
I don't have an "unswerving belief & trust in government & politicians good intentions & capabilities", far from it. What I do have is professional knowledge of the investigatory powers available to various bodies, the way they are currently regulated by RIPA and the need to encompass Internet activity in that regulation.

RIPA is one of the most misused powers employed currently by the state in its various forms, just ask any journalist who has been forced to disclose their sources of information.

I also have experience of RIPA from its miss-use by a local authority from personal experience and have an ICO judgement in my favour to prove this, do the "authorities" care? No, apparently I should be happy with an apology from the LA - no one sacked or held to account. And its an authority very close to you Graham!

 

[Don Quixote]

RIPA is one of the most misused powers employed currently by the state in its various forms, just ask any journalist who has been forced to disclose their sources of information.

I also have experience of RIPA from its miss-use by a local authority from personal experience and have an ICO judgement in my favour to prove this, do the "authorities" care? No, apparently I should be happy with an apology from the LA - no one sacked or held to account. And its an authority very close to you Graham!

I hope you don't mind me wondering what is a an ICO from a LA to a RIPA. Abbreviations are all very good, if everyone understands them........

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