Smart car towing (1 Viewer)

[The Dotties]

Charlie.
Please do not get drawn in again to the point where we may lose you. I've got cars and mo ho that need cleaning.
You've given your advice, let people accept it or not..
Keep smiling

 

[Minxy]

I assume Charlie's ignoring me as he hasn't answered my queries about the 2 cases which got let off with the fines ... I'm sure it's not just me who is interested in reading about these - those who HAVE got a-frames and want to use them in the EU will be very interested I'm sure.

So, Charlie, could you please oblige with responding to my queries please?

 

[gus-lopez]

From N332 Driving In Spain

• A group of Police Officers post all related to Traffic subjects and other interesting police matters;
  "We put you on the right side of the road".
• Long description
  We are a group of Spanish Traffic Police Officers who have decided to create this site to inform all expats and tourist who visit Spain about the Spanish Traffic Law. We think it is unfair to fine them for breaking rules they did not know it

https://www.facebook.com/DrivingSpain/?fref=nf

This is what the Cardia Civil have to say about EU and Spanish driving law..

"Under Spanish Law it is unlawful to do this..... but under EU Law is legal, so I can do it."

1º. There is no an official European Traffic Law.

2º. Each country has its own Traffic Laws.

3º. National laws have priority over laws from Europe. European countries are not forced to follow the regulations passed in the European Parliament. It is advisable, not mandatory.

Then... please have a look on the Traffic Law of the country you are going to visit if you have any doubts.

Another huge error ...

Every day, many foreigners are fined because they apply this rule when they drive...

" If it is LEGAL in my own country, it is LEGAL in Spain. "

Of course NOT.

Common Error: Never think that the traffic rules in your country are always applied in the other. wink emoticon

Could you say what rules applied in Spain are different in your country?

Example:

A-frames, in Spain

Yes they do & normally it is correct but in the case of 3º on that link I made a complaint as EU rules always take precedence over national laws except where national laws give greater benefit to the citizen. Additionally implementation of them is mandatory subject to time limits.

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[Charlie]

no idea Charlie.. need to ask them ..

like those who hate wild campers, freeloaders, grey water dumpers, genies, or any of a hundred other practices they don't agree with..

me ? .. 'live and let live' ... provided it's not interfering or disturbing my please and quiet

do A frames make a lot of noise.. ? then fine by me.. carry on..

those caught in Spain are the ones that will be squeeling like stuffed pigs when handed a fine and told to un-hitch..

Jim while I will not get into the technicalities for 3 reasons being 1 No one ever listens 2 It would not matter what I say or what documentation I produce no one will listen and it will just become an argument and 3 I really genuinely and absolutely do not give a damn...

Whilst its quite obvious the belief is that A frames in spain are Illegal and I do believe they are the actual number of tickets being dealt out is so low its insignificant as far as I am concerned. That said I have no intention of going to Spain full stop.

Have a great weekend mate !

 

[Charlie]

Charlie.
Please do not get drawn in again to the point where we may lose you. I've got cars and mo ho that need cleaning.
You've given your advice, let people accept it or not..
Keep smiling

I wont dont worry ! Allowing myself to rise to the bait is one thing I will not do again. I served my time for that and have no intention of being drawn in again.

My nickname is Smiler

 

[Gorse Hill]

I wont dont worry ! Allowing myself to rise to the bait is one thing I will not do again. I served my time for that and have no intention of being drawn in again.

My nickname is Smiler

To be fair Charlie if you did have info regarding the cases in Spain it would be useful for a number of people who do use A frames, but at the end of the day it's up to you smiler and I can understand why your reluctant to do so

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[scotjimland]

I also have the print offs of two cases where people got checked and fined in Spain. They appealed the decisions and the fines were overturned. These two cases set what I believe are called precedence's.

Charlie..

is it possible show these.. ?

I'm not interested personally, but they may help others who decide to take a chance in Spain..


edit.. sorry.. I've asked the same question..

 

[Charlie]

Charlie..

is it possible show these.. ?

I'm not interested personally, but they may help others who decide to take a chance in Spain..


edit.. sorry.. I've asked the same question..

Jim.. I have a copy of one of the cases overturned here. But bear with me while I try to work out our copier scanner machine. I have a wee girl that does these things for me ....

 

[Mark5204]

We had Caratow supply and fit our Frame to our car a Toyota IQ.

Our one is the simple mechanical type. I preferred this as if any problems occur with it I can sort it. I actually assisted in the fitting so now I know not only exactly how it works but how to remove it all from the car and re fit it to another car if ever I choose to do so. To do this would require another "Car" section kit but they are not expensive.

Do not worry about the car being damaged . This particular company's framework is massively strong It is very well engineered and would in most cases strengthen the front end of the car.







Total cost all in including a £40 charge for the company to come to our house and fit the kit was £1180.

Do not listen to all the nonsense about the legality's of towing with an A frame. Its all down to those who do not study the real and actual facts. If you buy an A frame from Caratow or any of the leading supplier fitters you will get a certificate on conformity. I have translated this and copied and pasted it onto several A4 papers in several languages. So if the is a question asked in any country I visit I can select the paper and hand it over.

If you want any further info just PM me. Im happy to chat on the phone if it helps and can maybe assist with dispelling some of the myths surrounding A frames and their use,

I will NOT be drawn into another bun fight over the legalities here.

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[Mark5204]

Great Reply Thank you so much for taking the time to post and for the pictures. That looks a very nice piece of kit. It's funny really I was watching a clip on their website the other day.

Interesting point you raised regarding printing of in other languages as that was my main concern.

Thanks again really appreciate your help.

 

[Charlie]

Great Reply Thank you so much for taking the time to post and for the pictures. That looks a very nice piece of kit. It's funny really I was watching a clip on their website the other day.

Interesting point you raised regarding printing of in other languages as that was my main concern.

Thanks again really appreciate your help.

You are of course very welcome !

Incidentally... You can get a full spares kit for the device from Caratow. I did just that. Where the large pins go that secure the A frame to the car frame is the Pins are secured by what they call Linch pins. Very secure . But I took the pins from the spares kit and drilled the holes out where the linchpins go to 6.5mm This allows me to secure the pins with two long shackle padlocks . Safer than houses !! Pictures on request ....

 

[Mark5204]

You are of course very welcome !

Incidentally... You can get a full spares kit for the device from Caratow. I did just that. Where the large pins go that secure the A frame to the car frame is the Pins are secured by what they call Linch pins. Very secure . But I took the pins from the spares kit and drilled the holes out where the linchpins go to 6.5mm This allows me to secure the pins with two long shackle padlocks . Safer than houses !! Pictures on request ....

Very very helpful Charlie. Thank you so much for all your time and help.

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[Gorse Hill]

You are of course very welcome !

Incidentally... You can get a full spares kit for the device from Caratow. I did just that. Where the large pins go that secure the A frame to the car frame is the Pins are secured by what they call Linch pins. Very secure . But I took the pins from the spares kit and drilled the holes out where the linchpins go to 6.5mm This allows me to secure the pins with two long shackle padlocks . Safer than houses !! Pictures on request ....

Are you not opening up yourself to possible problems by altering the original design specification Charlie, I only say this because I know of an instance where someone did something similar to a low loader with a tail drop and one of the bolts they used on the spring locating it to the body work broke/sheared possible causing the death of the driver when the tail lift was dropped down both the Police and HSE were involved and 2 yrs later the HSE are about to charge both the owner of the vechicle and the engineer who did the mod, if I didn't personally know about it I wouldn't have belived it

 

[Charlie]

Are you not opening up yourself to possible problems by altering the original design specification Charlie, I only say this because I know of an instance where someone did something similar to a low loader with a tail drop and one of the bolts they used on the spring locating it to the body work broke/sheared possible causing the death of the driver when the tail lift was dropped down both the Police and HSE were involved and 2 yrs later the HSE are about to charge both the owner of the vechicle and the engineer who did the mod, if I didn't personally know about it I wouldn't have belived it

Appreciate your point.

Allow me to enlarge on the position of the modification.

The large pin used to on these frames be secured with padlocks.. So what I have done is go back to that original way of doing the job. The padlocks or the linchpins do no other job other than preventing the large pins from coming adrift. They that is the padlocks or linchpins are in no way load bearing.

I have two sets here as said above. It is no problem for me to post up a picture if you like.

Further to this it is possible to buy these pins ready drilled from Caratow. In that case they are factory supplied / modified.

For me the padlocks are that bit better. It prevents anyone fiddling with the linchpins. That is the only reason I did them

 

[big map]

I am repeating myself and becoming a bit of a cracked record however

We got stopped and fined by the police in Germany
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum...rame-is-illegal-in-spain.114662/#post-1527887
I did show them the caratow downloads Link Removed
Result we will not take car on a frame to Germany again

We got stopped by the police in France, showed them the caratow downloads, the officer asked me to email it to him which I did, and they waved us on our way
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum...toad-on-an-a-frame.127644/page-3#post-1803809
Result we will continue to use in France.

At the end of the day it's down to personal choice, you pays your money you take your chance.

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[Charlie]

I am repeating myself and becoming a bit of a cracked record however

We got stopped and fined by the police in Germany
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum...rame-is-illegal-in-spain.114662/#post-1527887
I did show them the caratow downloads Link Removed
Result we will not take car on a frame to Germany again

We got stopped by the police in France, showed them the caratow downloads, the officer asked me to email it to him which I did, and they waved us on our way
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum...toad-on-an-a-frame.127644/page-3#post-1803809
Result we will continue to use in France.

At the end of the day it's down to personal choice, you pays your money you take your chance.

You actually sum it up there very well my friend.

Quote
At the end of the day it's down to personal choice, you pays your money you take your chance. unquote.

Will I worry NO.. Do I care. Not a jot.

I have far more important things to worry about !

 

[scotjimland]

this member was fined in Spain in 2011 for using an A frame.. .. report here, post # 6
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/a-frames-and-spain.40337/

 

[big map]

this member was fined in Spain in 2011 for using an A frame.. .. report here, post # 6
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/a-frames-and-spain.40337/

At the time we knew you couldn't use them in Spain, however we didn't know you couldn't use them in Germany, however we do now so we won't go there with it. I quite fancy Italy any idea if anyone has been stopped there?

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[Charlie]

this member was fined in Spain in 2011 for using an A frame.. .. report here, post # 6
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/a-frames-and-spain.40337/

Jim how many others before or since ? Mate I aint going to Spain. If I was I still would not worry. The chances of a pull are extremely slim but Im not going anyway..

Mate honestly when you have a wife with ill health like I do I just have to get on with the ruddy job and be done with it. My worries lie with her not whether a bloke got nicked in 2011 !

With respect to the poster we had some one say in another thread they would not leave a relative in a car parked for a wee while in case it burst into flames ! Flaming hell (pun intended) what are the chances of that !

IF I go to Spain or France or Germany and get nicked I will happily pay the fine. But trust me on this one I am an ultra determined guy and I would challenge the fine and I would get it back. Having an equally determined and highly qualified solicitor in the family comes in dead handy. Same person has looked at not only English law but how the law applies in Europe. But there is NO way Im going to enter into a debate about that cos NO one ever listens.

 

[big map]

Do you know what @Charlie I thought about challenging the German fine but decided against it, since at the end of the day it was cheaper than a hire car or taxis for the duration of the holiday.

 

[scotjimland]

Jim how many others before or since ? Mate I aint going to Spain

I have no idea.. I posted for information only, I didn't mention you ...and it certainly wasn't aimed at you personally..

This is the OP request I am replying to..

Any advise at all greatly appreciated.

also.. the thread will be read by others who may be interested in buying and using an A frame both here and abroad.

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[Jaws]

I can tell you that Bryan, ex admin type of this very domain, was pulled in Spain whilst heading for Zahora about 5 years ago.
He was driving his RV with a Jeep on an A-Frame..
Result was a fine ( really canna remember how much but it was either 60 or 100 € ) and made to unhook the car before being allowed to proceed.. Fortunately there was a 2nd driver with him and they followed ...

 

[PeteH]

Regardless of the Argument for /against. "A" framing a Smart is simple, effective and makes the best use of time and materials. I did it and still do (now an old Punto). In the UK only.

I would not contemplate using one in Europe. I believe the EU countries are wrong to prohibit them and always have regarded it as bureaucratic stupidity. ( I also think not allowing Brits to use them as visitors is contrary to the Treaty of Rome Principals).

Back to "Smarts". be careful to ensure that the gearbox is ACTUALLY locked into neutral, I failed to double check, and a fault in the programming (false neutral) allowed the car to be towed whilst still actually in gear at the ultimate cost of a re-con Engine and Gear box!. Being towed behind 7tonne of R-V, the fact was un noticed!. So just be aware, some Smarts do show a false neutral, it`s a software "glitch". BTW. because the "Clutch" mechanism is of the centrifugal variety, just giving the car a push does NOT "prove" it is out of gear!.

My personal opinions on "A frames" can be seen Here:- (from another post elsewhere).

"As someone who started caravanning circa 1970. And went to a R-V, when they told my wife she should no longer travel long distances without regular breaks, May I say:- I have "Toaded" all over the USA, 15000+miles in fact. Where the practice is universally accepted. I have never been able to understand the "European Phobia" against the practice. But then, That`s Europe!. (Stupidity personified IMHO). The pro`s and cons are well known, and as (allegedly) free persons we can make educated choices according to our will. There are known arguments for and against the practice. Having recently returned to the use of a Motor-home, after a 3 year break during which we had a Caravan, that which we discarded largely because neither myself nor my (disabled) wife could sit comfortably in the Seating, whereas now we have a "Captains" chair each with a leg-rest (side bench). I tow an old Punto on "A" frame. AND IT WORKS FOR US!. It is however a Grey area. having (unlike "Dolly" Frames) never been tested in the law courts. BTW, I Know from experience that my (now) rig is far quicker to set -up than a Caravan!. Unless or until they are the subject of a "test" case (as happened with "Dolly" frames) then the legality is not an issue. Any debate as to the "technical" aspect of use is just that, a debate!.

BTW. US Style "tow dollys" are completely reversible!. I know, I brought a Rental car from Florida to Texas on a "U-Haul" one, Behind the R-V when we Bought It!, It is also IMHO an even better device than an "A" frame but has been judged as "legal only for the recovery of disabled vehicles" by the Courts Circa 1975ish.

IF, I decide in the future to go back to Spain, as we did for many years prior to choosing the USA. I would likely buy a Smart and Trailer it, JUST to avoid the hassle of being "pulled" by Spanish "plod" (3 times). Someone makes (made) a trailer with a folding Draw bar, and that would take up the least space on site. ( one guy I know, put plywood base on the trailer and used it for a Gazebo, to Barbecue in / on!). "

Pete

 

[scotjimland]

I can tell you that Bryan, ex admin type of this very domain, was pulled in Spain whilst heading for Zahora about 5 years ago.

.. see my post #47 for the link John..

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[Charlie]

I have no idea.. I posted for information only, I didn't mention you ...and it certainly wasn't aimed at you personally..

This is the OP request I am replying to..



also.. the thread will be read by others who may be interested in buying and using an A frame both here and abroad.

Jim . I know you were not pointing the comment at me. My reply is/was my opinion.

 

[Minxy]

I don't understand the 'logic' of starting a thread about how wonderful an a-frame is (which I admit can be a very useful way to tow a car around with you) without then being willing to provide the information requested regarding the rescinding of the fines received in the EU.

Whilst towing a car isn't something I would do at the present time simply because I don't need to (although we used to have a classic Bond Minicar which we did tow on a 'bar' arrangement, similar to the principle of an a-frame) others do, so this information would be very beneficial to them if they wish to take their cars abroad.

As it appears I am being 'ignored' by Charlie can anyone else point me in the right direction of the 2 cases that Charlie refers to that had the fined quashed?

I give information, and go out of my way, to research it even if it doesn't affect me, so that fellow funsters can benefit from what I find, so it would be good to have someone else, who already has the information, provide it for others too.

 

[big map]

I think the op started the thread as an information gathering exercise not about "how wonderful an a-frame is".

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[big map]

Spanish fine dismissal taken from the downloads on caratows site
Link Removed

 

[PeteH]

I don't understand the 'logic' of starting a thread about how wonderful an a-frame is (which I admit can be a very useful way to tow a car around with you) without then being willing to provide the information requested regarding the rescinding of the fines received in the EU.

Whilst towing a car isn't something I would do at the present time simply because I don't need to (although we used to have a classic Bond Minicar which we did tow on a 'bar' arrangement, similar to the principle of an a-frame) others do, so this information would be very beneficial to them if they wish to take their cars abroad.

As it appears I am being 'ignored' by Charlie can anyone else point me in the right direction of the 2 cases that Charlie refers to that had the fined quashed?

I give information, and go out of my way, to research it even if it doesn't affect me, so that fellow funsters can benefit from what I find, so it would be good to have someone else, who already has the information, provide it for others too.

Took some finding as it was on My Archived Hard drive. It is the English translation of a Dismissal of a fine by a Spanish Judge, Circa 1996. However It will not upload, (BitMap) what is the size limit on Attachments?. I will keep trying.


Pete

 

[big map]

Took some finding as it was on My Archived Hard drive. It is the English translation of a Dismissal of a fine by a Spanish Judge, Circa 1996. However It will not upload, what is the size limit on Attachments?. I will keep trying.

Pete

If you follow the link I have posted above it should take you to the same 1996 case.

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