Running the engine whilst stationary ... (1 Viewer)

[Vanman]

OK this might look a lot like a question I posted earlier, the difference being this one has nothing whatsoever to do with Solar panels, B2B chargers, generators, or any other charging system than the engine of the vehicle (a 2.3L Ducato as it happens). So -

I remember reading in a thread here that running the engine for prolonged times without moving can damage the engine/Cat? Is that true? If so how long would be 'OK' to run the engine (to put some charge back in the batteries) per day when off EHU?

Obviously people get in traffic jams for 2 or 3 hours at regular intervals anyway, but whilst away at occasional weekend rallies (I'll mostly be on EHU otherwise) how long would you say it would be safe to run the engine for on a daily basis, without moving?

The answer I am looking for would look something like -

a) I'd happily run the engine for xx hours per day, or
b) Any more than xx is asking for trouble, or
c) There's no scientific evidence that idling hurts the engine or Cat.

(where xx is a number of hours)!

Thanks

 

[MC 55 FUN]

OK this might look a lot like a question I posted earlier, the difference being this one has nothing whatsoever to do with Solar panels, B2B chargers, generators, or any other charging system than the engine of the vehicle (a 2.3L Ducato as it happens). So -

I remember reading in a thread here that running the engine for prolonged times without moving can damage the engine/Cat? Is that true? If so how long would be 'OK' to run the engine (to put some charge back in the batteries) per day when off EHU?

Obviously people get in traffic jams for 2 or 3 hours at regular intervals anyway, but whilst away at occasional weekend rallies (I'll mostly be on EHU otherwise) how long would you say it would be safe to run the engine for on a daily basis, without moving?

The answer I am looking for would look something like -

a) I'd happily run the engine for xx hours per day, or
b) Any more than xx is asking for trouble, or
c) There's no scientific evidence that idling hurts the engine or Cat.

(where xx is a number of hours)!

Thanks

This may be of assistance :

I know it's marine but it's the same principle.

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/ask-professor-diesel/idling-diesel-engines

 

[donnieban]

Diesel engines are content to run under load with negligible wear potential. The greatest damage or risk to diesel engines involves frequent stop starts. Be kind to your turbo, after a long run let the engine idle even for a few seconds before you switch off the ignition.

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[Vanman]

Diesel engines are content to run under load with negligible wear potential. The greatest damage or risk to diesel engines involves frequent stop starts. Be kind to your turbo, after a long run let the engine idle even for a few seconds before you switch off the ignition.

Thanks @donnieban but what about idling, i.e. not under load?

 

[pappajohn]

OK this might look a lot like a question I posted earlier, the difference being this one has nothing whatsoever to do with Solar panels, B2B chargers, generators, or any other charging system than the engine of the vehicle (a 2.3L Ducato as it happens). So -

I remember reading in a thread here that running the engine for prolonged times without moving can damage the engine/Cat? Is that true? If so how long would be 'OK' to run the engine (to put some charge back in the batteries) per day when off EHU?

Obviously people get in traffic jams for 2 or 3 hours at regular intervals anyway, but whilst away at occasional weekend rallies (I'll mostly be on EHU otherwise) how long would you say it would be safe to run the engine for on a daily basis, without moving?

The answer I am looking for would look something like -

a) I'd happily run the engine for xx hours per day, or
b) Any more than xx is asking for trouble, or
c) There's no scientific evidence that idling hurts the engine or Cat.

(where xx is a number of hours)!

Thanks

Lets try it this way......
The greatest wear occurs in a diesel engine is when its cold and idling...ok.
A diesel should be started and put under driving loads straight away.
You start the engine and let it idle to charge your battery.

It will take a very, very long time to get up to proper operating temperature at idle, if its really cold outside it may never get warm enough.

Long periods of idling allow the cylinders to glaze reducing compression and increasing oil consumption.

If you still want to damage your engine you may need 2 or 3 hours minimum to charge from a reasonable discharge state.....or, start the engine then disconnect the engine battery allowing full charge to the leisure battery....but the split charge wiring may not be man enough to take 30 or 40 amps charge current.

A solar panel is cheaper than an engine strip, deglaze (cylinder hone) and new piston rings

 

[Lenny HB]

In addition to what @pappajohn says it also damages the CAT & DPF as they do not get up to there operating temperature.

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[Vanman]

Thanks @pappajohn so would the following scenario be ok?

42 weeks per year van is on EHU. 10 weekends it goes rallying, without EHU. The fridge is packed with really cold beers . Some disappear on Friday night. Saturday the van is driven down to toilet block and back and left to idle for an hour or so during breakfast and then the same procedure (Toilet block, back, idle 1 hour) during dinner in the evening, and then the process is repeated on the Sunday - morning/night.

Is doing that 10 times a year going to hurt the engine/Cat/DPF?

I realise 4 hours of idling isn't going to make a massive difference to the fridge, but it might just make the difference ... I will be able to tell if the beer is colder or not after my 2nd trip!

 

[icantremember]

I don't know how much damage will be caused to the engine .. but what will certainly be damaged is your relationship with fellow campers!

 

[Allanm]

You need a generator..............

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[Louis]

Thanks @pappajohn so would the following scenario be ok?

42 weeks per year van is on EHU. 10 weekends it goes rallying, without EHU. The fridge is packed with really cold beers . Some disappear on Friday night. Saturday the van is driven down to toilet block and back and left to idle for an hour or so during breakfast and then the same procedure (Toilet block, back, idle 1 hour) during dinner in the evening, and then the process is repeated on the Sunday - morning/night.

Is doing that 10 times a year going to hurt the engine/Cat/DPF?

I realise 4 hours of idling isn't going to make a massive difference to the fridge, but it might just make the difference ... I will be able to tell if the beer is colder or not after my 2nd trip!

Best solution therefore, take it for an hours drive rather than idling, it will charge a lot more than when idling, less soot clogging up and peace for your neighbours

 

[Geo]

Extended periods of idling will certainly cause damage. not limited to
1. Bore wash (Dilution of engine oil) excess engine wear due to low temp running
2. EGR Sooting and carbon build up, due to low temp running
3. DPF filters Clogging and premature failure, due to low temp running
4. Low temp emissions are extremely polluting and carcinogenic
a real danger to occupants of the vehicle and people nearby, due to low temp running
You should be able to work out from this that the real enemy is Low Temp running of diesel engines, to this end the Manf have gone to great
lengths to make your engine warm up as quick as possible but at tick over insufficient heat is generated to keep the engine running sweet and Damage is the result
Geo

 

[CWH]

Saturday the van is driven down to toilet block and back and left to idle for an hour or so during breakfast and then the same procedure (Toilet block, back, idle 1 hour) during dinner in the evening, and then the process is repeated on the Sunday - morning/night.

I don't mean to be unfriendly, but if you didn't stop doing this after a polite request,
I think I'd be asking for you to be thrown off the rally.

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[andy63]

start the engine then disconnect the engine battery allowing full charge to the leisure battery...

John would you not need to be sure that the route to the leisure battery charging was still there if you disconnect the start battery...
If the alternator can't see a load it would fail fairly quickly..
Just a thought on reading that..
Andy

 

[jezport]

So in conclusion.
Dont do it.

Its bad for the van
Its bad for your health
And why is it always early on a morning when some pillock decides to do it in a really knocky rattling old diesel van?

 

[Lenny HB]

First rally we even did a Hymer club one, pillock next to up started his van at 5am and ran it for 3 hours. His excuse was his batteries were flat so the heating wouldn't run and his dogs were cold. I'll leave my reply to your imagination.

IMO anyone who want to camp off grid and can't be bothered to set their van up with enough battery power, solar etc., should be banned from owning a Motorhome.
Engines running are worse than generators and even the quietest generators make an awful row that travels through the neighbouring vans.

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[pappajohn]

John would you not need to be sure that the route to the leisure battery charging was still there if you disconnect the start battery...
If the alternator can't see a load it would fail fairly quickly..
Just a thought on reading that..
Andy

By disconnecting the engine battery the leisure battery takes its place via the split charge system.
Once the engine is started both batteries are linked anyway so removing one will still leave the other in circuit providing the engine is running.
Engine battery at 100%
Leisure battery at 60%.
just like solar sees a two 110ah battery leisure bank as just one big 220ah battery, the alternator sees the same.
The alternator sees 80% charged overall and adjusts output current to suit.
Remove the engine battery and the alternator only sees the leisure batteries 60% so increases output current to quickly recharge.

 

[pappajohn]

The other option would be a B2B charger which fools the alternator into seeing flat batteries and bangs out full output, but as the engine battery is already 100% charged almost all the power, depending what amps the B2B is rated at, goes to the leisure battery.

 

[andy63]

By disconnecting the engine battery the leisure battery takes its place via the split charge system.

That's the bit I was wondering about...
If the split charge system is worked with a voltage sensing relay and you disconnect the start battery it will not see a voltage and wouldn't work as it should to connect the batteries..
Not sure if that's how it works ..
Andy.

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[pappajohn]

It should sense the alternator voltage which is all it does when everything is connected as normal.
It simply senses when the voltage increases above the standing battery voltage.
As the leisure battery is still connected the increase in voltage is still there as long as the engine is running.
All its doing is switching by voltage instead of a physical switch ie: ignition.
The ign switched relay connects as soon as the ignition is switched on which if left could flatten your battery eventually as its transferring power from one battery to the other.
Voltage sensed doesn't until the engine is started meaning you could leave the ignition on (accidentally of course) and it won't transfer power to the hab battery.

 

[Tykatem]

It's a waste of money and resources to leave it running when you are not moving. You are not only getting zero miles to the gallon while idling, but you are using up the oil and the engine parts as well. If the engine is running, it's wearing out!!

pete

 

[Vanman]

but what will certainly be damaged is your relationship with fellow campers!

You need a generator..............

Best solution therefore, take it for an hours drive rather than idling, it will charge a lot more than when idling, less soot clogging up and peace for your neighbours

So in conclusion. Dont do it.
And why is it always early on a morning when some pillock decides to do it in a really knocky rattling old diesel van?

First rally we even did a Hymer club one, pillock next to up started his van at 5am and ran it for 3 hours.
IMO anyone who want to camp off grid and can't be bothered to set their van up with enough battery power, solar etc., should be banned from owning a Motorhome.
Engines running are worse than generators and even the quietest generators make an awful row that travels through the neighbouring vans.

It's a waste of money and resources to leave it running when you are not moving.

Good Heavens folks, I was only asking the question! Lol.

So what you're saying is that idling isn't enough then, presumably you need me to rev it up a bit?

I don't mean to be unfriendly, but if you didn't stop doing this after a polite request,
I think I'd be asking for you to be thrown off the rally.

Bloomin' eck. That's nearly "I'm not being funny, but ..." ROFL

Just to straighten the record a little, I already have a generator, here. I may offer it for sale at some point and put the money towards either a solar panel or a cylinder re-bore

The Rallies of which I speak are motorcycle meets where the bikes are already on the track from 0900 and as I rarely get up before 10am and there are literally hundreds of generators everywhere, I doubt anyone would be much concerned about the noise of my rattly old 2017 van

I really would rather not pay for a solar panel or generator that would only be used a maximum of 10 weekends per year so I am exploring and trying to understand the cheap and cheerful options

Maybe a 2nd (possibly 3rd) battery might be better ... any other ideas?

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[Lenny HB]

Always worth fitting extra batteries before doing anything else especially if you are only doing a few days away at a time.

 

[Louis]

Good Heavens folks, I was only asking the question! Lol.

So what you're saying is that idling isn't enough then, presumably you need me to rev it up a bit?



Bloomin' eck. That's nearly "I'm not being funny, but ..." ROFL

Just to straighten the record a little, I already have a generator, here. I may offer it for sale at some point and put the money towards either a solar panel or a cylinder re-bore

The Rallies of which I speak are motorcycle meets where the bikes are already on the track from 0900 and as I rarely get up before 10am and there are literally hundreds of generators everywhere, I doubt anyone would be much concerned about the noise of my rattly old 2017 van

I really would rather not pay for a solar panel or generator that would only be used a maximum of 10 weekends per year so I am exploring and trying to understand the cheap and cheerful options

Maybe a 2nd (possibly 3rd) battery might be better ... any other ideas? [/

 

[CWH]

Bloomin' eck. That's nearly "I'm not being funny, but ..." ROFL

... but I'd ask you very very nicely first

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[Vanman]

... but I'd ask you very very nicely first

You'd have to ask quite loudly though for me to hear it over the Ghetto Blaster

Can't wait to get my C&CC membership at Christmas

 

[CWH]

You'd have to ask quite loudly though for me to hear it over the Ghetto Blaster

Can't wait to get my C&CC membership at Christmas

Brilliant!
Ooh, ooh - and if you REALLY want to upset the neighbours, get a SOG too

 

[two]

If others are using generators on the meets you go to, wander up and ask them why they don't idle their engine instead. It might be because generators are cheaper to replace than engines, or maybe they haven't even thought about it.

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[Vanman]

If others are using generators on the meets you go to, wander up and ask them why they don't idle their engine instead. It might be because generators are cheaper to replace than engines, or maybe they haven't even thought about it.

A lot of them are competitors and they have tyre warmers, electric tools, tv's etc and run their gennies from 0800-2100+ I am guessing that idling wouldn't cut it for their purposes.

 

[two]

See if you could borrow a genny for an hour before 8:00am. The opinion seems to be that idling is not good, so better to look for an alternative.

 

[mjltigger]

More batteries... Sod all this charging nonsense, just get enough batteries to last the weekend. 200ah is enough for 3 days for us (but we have the fridge on gas)