Road Tax : PLG or PHGV ? (1 Viewer)

[Triple7]

I've imported an old Hymer from Germany which has a manufacturer quoted unladen weight of 3200 and a GVW of 4600kgs. The true unladen weight when taking into account things like an awning, some fuel and water etc is about 3500. This happens to be the cut off weight for whether a vehicle is classed as a PLG or a PHGV.

I'm just about to have it registered and want to make sure it's properly classified . If it falls into the cheaper (heavier) tax band great but I'm not trying to finesse a it one way or the other.

Does anybody know what the official DLVA definition is for their weight quoted for road tax purposes?

 

[Deleted member 29692]

It's the maximum weight so 4600 or PHGV in your case as long as you retain this weight on your V5

This is good because your tax will be cheaper.

The unladen weight is completely irrelevant. There's nothing you use it for.

 

[Zigisla]

It is the Max permissible weight or the revenue weight for the tax i.e. 4600 Kg and nothing to do with unladen weight. Mine is 3850 Kg revenue, but Mass in Service (unladen) is only 2905 Kg

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[Triple7]

It's the maximum weight so 4600 or PHGV in your case as long as you retain this weight on your V5

This is good because your tax will be cheaper.

The unladen weight is completely irrelevant. There's nothing you use it for.

Thanks Nick. Do you happen to know where this is actually quoted in officialdom? Can't find any reference myself

 

[Zigisla]

The unladen weight is completely irrelevant. There's nothing you use it for.

Except speed limits on UK roads

 

[DBK]

It's GVW I think. If I upgraded my 3500Kg GVW to say 4200Kg then I would pay less VED as it would be classed as PHGV.

Too slow typing again!

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[Deleted member 29692]

Except speed limits on UK roads

Am impossible loophole to enforce and even that isn't 3500kg, it's 3050kg.

It's impossible because the official definition of unladen weight is the weight of the vehicle off of the production line with no modifications or additions and no liquids.

For a motor home unless you used the base chassis before conversion, which would be meaningless, it's impossible to record an accurate figure.

The MIRO figure that we all worry so much about is NOT the same thing as unladen weight

 

[Zigisla]

Am impossible loophole to enforce and even that isn't 3500kg, it's 3050kg.

It's impossible because the official definition of unladen weight is the weight of the vehicle off of the production line with no modifications or additions and no liquids.

For a motor home unless you used the base chassis before conversion, which would be meaningless, it's impossible to record an accurate figure.

The MIRO figure that we all worry so much about is NOT the same thing as unladen weight

From the .gov website -
Unladen weight
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of:

• fuel
• batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair

Unladen weight is still the only weight quoted to restrict speed on UK roads no matter how difficult it maybe to enforce though.

 

[Triple7]

From the .gov website -
Unladen weight
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of:

• fuel
• batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair

Unladen weight is still the only weight quoted to restrict speed on UK roads no matter how difficult it maybe to enforce though.

Did you happen to find a direct reference to which weight is used by dvla when applying the 3500kg limit? I found this but it would be nice if they were more specific and use the correct term rather than just say "when loaded"

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[Deleted member 29692]

From the .gov website -
Unladen weight
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of:

• fuel
• batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair

Unladen weight is still the only weight quoted to restrict speed on UK roads no matter how difficult it maybe to enforce though.

It's only quoted for motor homes which is pretty much the only class of vehicle where that particular weight is not recorded during the manufacturing process and not even quoted as a guesstimate by the manufacturers therefore it's not difficult to enforce, it's impossible to enforce.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

@Triple7 you're trying to over think it.

The exise weight of any vehicle no matter what type is it's maximum gross weight.

You cannot use any other weight.

 

[DBK]

Did you happen to find a direct reference to which weight is used by dvla when applying the 3500kg limit? I found this but it would be nice if they were more specific and use the correct term rather than just say "when loaded"View attachment 159736

Probably the nearest you will get would be to speak to SV Tech who are the main but not only authority for upgrading and re-rating vehicles in the UK. Their website also mentions GVW with reference to vehicle classification above or below the critical 3500 Kg point.
But you won't go wrong classifying your vehicle as PHGV based on the figures you have.
http://www.svtech.co.uk

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[Triple7]

@Triple7 you're trying to over think it.

The exise weight of any vehicle no matter what type is it's maximum gross weight.

You cannot use any other weight.

What you guys are saying seems both logical and correct but there is a chap on Facebook who has a lot of experience in these matters who is certain it's the manufacturer quoted unladen weight. I will phone the dvla tomorrow just to see if I can confirm it's the GVW.

 

[Triple7]

It

Probably the nearest you will get would be to speak to SV Tech who are the main but not only authority for upgrading and re-rating vehicles in the UK. Their website also mentions GVW with reference to vehicle classification above or below the critical 3500 Kg point.
But you won't go wrong classifying your vehicle as PHGV based on the figures you have.
http://www.svtech.co.uk

It seems the more logical and consistent. Thanks for your help

 

[klaatu]

This may be of use. It contains information obtained from DVLA:

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/3-motorhome-road-tax

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[Zigisla]

Unfortunately I don't. Mine was done for me by the dealer. There are a few in here that have done so recently @Lenny HB is one for sure who may help. I only found that statement online as I had asked similar question a while ago about speed limits and should it be unladen or max weight that governs it as I was clocked at 60 on duel carriageway but nothing came of it. Curiosity got the better of me and I looked into it. 3050 is the limit and although my max is 3850, I would always argue that on my certificate of conformity it is unladen at 2905.

Edit. Why did that take 20 mins to go through.

 

[Triple7]

This may be of use. It contains information obtained from DVLA:

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/3-motorhome-road-tax

Nice one. Given how pedantic the dvla can be you would think they would "label" their weights.

Thank you all for your speedy response. I can get on with the paperwork tomorrow now

 

[Triple7]

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[Deleted member 29692]

What you guys are saying seems both logical and correct but there is a chap on Facebook who has a lot of experience in these matters who is certain it's the manufacturer quoted unladen weight.

Motorhome manufacturers do not quote unladen weights so that's the end of that one. I'd suggest the person on Facebook hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.

Don't be confused by MIRO weight that they quote, 3200kg in your OP. That's something different and includes a lot of things - water, fuel, driver and so on - that are specifically excluded from the official definition of unladen weight that's already been posted in this thread.

 

[Lenny HB]

Unfortunately I don't. Mine was done for me by the dealer. There are a few in here that have done so recently @Lenny HB is one for sure who may help. I only found that statement online as I had asked similar question a while ago about speed limits and should it be unladen or max weight that governs it as I was clocked at 60 on duel carriageway but nothing came of it. Curiosity got the better of me and I looked into it. 3050 is the limit and although my max is 3850, I would always argue that on my certificate of conformity it is unladen at 2905.

Edit. Why did that take 20 mins to go through.

Certificate of Conformity does not show unladen weight only MIRO and Technical MIRO. The Technical MIRO is the MIRO plus any factory fitted extras.
If your MIRO is 2905kg and you have no extras filled at all your unladen weight will be 2724kg. I've taken off the manufacturers allowance included in the MIRO which is - driver 75kg, 20Lt of water, 1 x 11kg aluminum gas bottle & 90% fuel. In practice it won't be as low as that, everyone has at least the basic pack when they buy a van but you get the idea. How you prove your unladen weight is less than 3050 is another matter, you would need to take it to a weighbridge completely empty with minimum fuel (no fuel for true weight).

 

[Triple7]

Motorhome manufacturers do not quote unladen weights so that's the end of that one. I'd suggest the person on Facebook hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.

Don't be confused by MIRO weight that they quote, 3200kg in your OP. That's something different and includes a lot of things - water, fuel, driver and so on - that are specifically excluded from the official definition of unladen weight that's already been posted in this thread.

The German reg documents do list both numbers and Hymer does list an "empty" weight which is where the numbers come from. The chap is generally quite knowledgeable but obviously mistaken in this case. I was suspicious from the start as going by the unladen (theoretical) weight did seem odd. But thanks again for your help. Didn't want to cock up the registration and have it either rejected or a pain to change later.

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[Lenny HB]

The German reg documents do list both numbers and Hymer does list an "empty" weight which is where the numbers come from. The chap is generally quite knowledgeable but obviously mistaken in this case. I was suspicious from the start as going by the unladen (theoretical) weight did seem odd. But thanks again for your help. Didn't want to cock up the registration and have it either rejected or a pain to change later.

I have had 3 new Hymers only just taken delivery of the last one all have only had MIRO and Technical MIRO on the certificate of conformity.
The Hymer empty weight you refer to is in their latest price lists but it is not unladen it is the MIRO it is just the way they refer to it on the price list there are no official documents I have seen on a Hymer showing unladen weight.

 

[peterc10]

Let's not forget that the OP referred to an OLD Hymer. So long before CoC etc I would suspect. And his question was about revenue class not speed limits.

 

[Triple7]

Let's not forget that the OP referred to an OLD Hymer. So long before CoC etc I would suspect. And his question was about revenue class not speed limits.

Lol It never ceases to amaze me how quickly threads go off topic, but I have to say in this case my query was dealt with quick enough not to matter. Definitely a 10/10 for the forum in this instance

You are right, my van is 27 years old so no c o c required. (10years old is the cut off I believe)

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[John & Joan]

So back on topic. We have a 1992 Hymer S700 4600kg MGVW It is PHGV as over 3500kg MGVW so we pay £165 per year or slightly more if you pay by DD monthly. C1 licence required.

The figures you quote almost match our weigh ticket from the factory. We were weighed on a UK weighbridge empty with added fixed extras and came out at 3380kg. There is no way this vehicle could be down plated to under 3500kg unless you make major modification as I saw once on a one from Northern Ireland, where they had chopped about 3 feet off the vehicles overhang loosing most of the boot. They had made it a single bed at the rear and lost the rear side windows. Much easier to just downsize.

 

[Triple7]

As much out of curiousity as anything I decided to speak with the DVLA this morning.

The lady I spoke to took the trouble to consult with the "first registration" team so hopefully this is a decent opinion (but opinion nonetheless)

Because my vehicle does not have a certificate of conformity it is up to me to declare whatever I believe to be the most appropriate weight for my usage of the vehicle. So that confirms that there is no definitive ruling available.

Obviously it would be hard to justify an unladen weight and given the current tax regime it makes most sense to declare the maximum.

But it does (sort of) explain why other people might think differently.

Thanks again for your help

 

[Triple7]

So back on topic. We have a 1992 Hymer S700 4600kg MGVW It is PHGV as over 3500kg MGVW so we pay £165 per year or slightly more if you pay by DD monthly. C1 licence required.

The figures you quote almost match our weigh ticket from the factory. We were weighed on a UK weighbridge empty with added fixed extras and came out at 3380kg. There is no way this vehicle could be down plated to under 3500kg unless you make major modification as I saw once on a one from Northern Ireland, where they had chopped about 3 feet off the vehicles overhang loosing most of the boot. They had made it a single bed at the rear and lost the rear side windows. Much easier to just downsize.

That sounds about right. When having mine moted yesterday they weighed both axles and it came to 3490. But I had about a quarter tank of diesel and probably over a third of water.

Very pleased with mine. Love the bar layout. Where abouts are you based?

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