Retrofitting 3 point seat belts in a Hymer rear lounge (1 Viewer)

[DenDastardly]

Just joined and hoping to find a way to legally carry 2 passengers in a rear lounge area.

I am thinking along the following lines:-

If the chassis are fitted with lots of seating arrangement options (seems likely) and then only those needed for a particular model are used are the “spares” legal to utilise?

I realise that even if this idea has merit the chance of there being anchor points in the lounge area is remote but worth the asking.

Anyone any other ideas???

Cheers Den

 

[TheBig1]

sorry den, you are asking the impossible. you wont find a business that will do the work as they would be liable in an accident. nor an insurance company that will insure it. adding more designated travelling seats with belts would require vehicle type approval, which cannot be granted
then add that the rear of the motorhome is a crumple zone and inherently dangerous, and it makes the idea untennable

 

[DenDastardly]

Yes I am already convinced by all of the feedback and feel a tad embarrassed but what the hell. Thanks for taking the trouble to put me straight.

I'd like to remove this thread now as it has served it's purpose, is that poss?

Cheers Den

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[Jim]

Hi Den, an excellent question and you're not the first to ask it, it can be done but it's not straightforward as has been suggested. Here is a good read on seat belt law . Broken Link Removed

Meanwhile, welcome to the fun

 

[daveandsan]

@DenDastardly dont feel embarrassed, we have all been newbies to this motorhoming. This thread will serve to warn others with similar ideas.

 

[hilldweller]

feel a tad embarrassed but what the hell.
Cheers Den

I don't know why. There is nothing unreasonable in what you ask. Many years ago I regularly fitted full race harnesses in my minis and raced them but also used them on the road. Seat belts were not standard, so surely I was better off even if I could not prove I was.

But today everything has to be regulated and accountable.

The totally absurd thing is you can carry passengers with no seat belts but fit belts diligently and you could end up in deep poo. On the other hand you could fit a belt badly and strangle the person who might have survived without a belt ( the case of a sideways seat with a lap and diagonal belt ).

I removed two belted seats from our MH to improve the layout, you should see the strength of the seat frame and the way it was bolted down, quite a significant piece of engineering.

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[Mikeco]

There are many coach built or A class motor homes with belted rear seats so the fairly weak structure of a motor home does not seem to be a problem, at least with the powers that be.
If you are happy to accept that a rear shunt could be a bit dangerous then it should be possible to provide belted seats in the rear. To do so you would need to buy a double seat with its own steel frame and fitted seat belts. Mini bus seats are typically used in van conversions or at least I did in mine.
Providing that this seat is bolted through the floor to the chassis with the appropriate spreader plates then it will pass the MOT, the V5 can them be changed to show 4 travel seats and your insurance company should be okay. Details of how to secure a seat to the chassis are shown on the VOSA web page but takes some finding.

 

[DenDastardly]

Thanks for this info. It would be a difficult process and besides the thought of my kids being in a crumple zone doesn't appeal... didn't realise MH's were so fragile...

Den

 

[pappajohn]

Thanks for this info. It would be a difficult process and besides the thought of my kids being in a crumple zone doesn't appeal... didn't realise MH's were so fragile...

Den

Oh yes.......this was rear ended by an HGV while broken down on the hard shoulder.

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[DenDastardly]

Ok I'm convinced already!

 

[tonyidle]

Hymer B584 has three belted seats. (All near the front!)

 

[Puddleduck]

We've had both our latest vans up on a ramp for refillable gas tanks to be fitted.

The rear seat belts are attached to a substantial beam, in turn attached to the chassis. The rear travel seats are in the dinette so towards the front of the van.

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[hilldweller]

Hymer B584 has three belted seats. (All near the front!)

I see your 3 belted seats and raise you 6 on our Burstner 530. Bought thinking daughter and family could use it and they never did. So I pulled two seats out to give us more room.

 

[peterc10]

View attachment 144370 There are many coach built or A class motor homes with belted rear seats so the fairly weak structure of a motor home does not seem to be a problem, at least with the powers that be.
If you are happy to accept that a rear shunt could be a bit dangerous then it should be possible to provide belted seats in the rear. To do so you would need to buy a double seat with its own steel frame and fitted seat belts. Mini bus seats are typically used in van conversions or at least I did in mine.
Providing that this seat is bolted through the floor to the chassis with the appropriate spreader plates then it will pass the MOT, the V5 can them be changed to show 4 travel seats and your insurance company should be okay. Details of how to secure a seat to the chassis are shown on the VOSA web page but takes some finding.

It isn't as simple as that. My Hymer has similar seats sitting on a timber base. It uses big box section steels, vertically and on the rake, to transmit the seat belt loads down into the chassis, held together by big bolts. It was the same with my previous Adria motorhome.

And nowadays you will be hard pressed to find much in the way of a chassis behind the rear wheels. At best you may find aluminium chassis extenders (as in my two motorhomes) and there is no way they will take much in the way of the bending loads. At worse you will find nothing expect the sandwich floor walls and roof acting as a structural box.

 

[Mikeco]

It isn't as simple as that. My Hymer has similar seats sitting on a timber base. It uses big box section steels, vertically and on the rake, to transmit the seat belt loads down into the chassis, held together by big bolts. It was the same with my previous Adria motorhome.

And nowadays you will be hard pressed to find much in the way of a chassis behind the rear wheels. At best you may find aluminium chassis extenders (as in my two motorhomes) and there is no way they will take much in the way of the bending loads. At worse you will find nothing expect the sandwich floor walls and roof acting as a structural box.

I don't believe that I said it was simple, only a possible solution. There would be a way to put additional steel alongside the chassis, even at the rear if someone was despairate enough to do it.

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[TheBig1]

I don't believe that I said it was simple, only a possible solution. There would be a way to put additional steel alongside the chassis, even at the rear if someone was despairate enough to do it.

for the reasons already given bodging it will not be insurable. never mind the weight of all that steel taking away the payload

 

[Mikeco]

for the reasons already given bodging it will not be insurable. never mind the weight of all that steel taking away the payload

Not sure where the bodging part applies. If the work is done in accordance with the VOSA guidelines and you have it MOT'd and you then change your V5 to show 4 travel seats instead of 2 then you will get your insurance changed. Payload is a separate issue and should always be taken into account.
Finished now with this post, it's like the inquisition, too many questions.

 

[peterc10]

I don't believe that I said it was simple, only a possible solution. There would be a way to put additional steel alongside the chassis, even at the rear if someone was despairate enough to do it.

And who is going to carry out all the structural calculations to make it works I wonder? And where is this new RSC going to be bolted in and how many bolts. Making structural alterations to vehicles requires type approval nowadays. It probably would cost a few thousand pounds to get.

Would love a link to these VOSA guidelines that make it nice and easy.

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[cronkle]

I found these guideline:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEUQFjAC&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/207641/iva-declaration-form-seat-belt-anchorage-compliance-iva-19a-b.doc&ei=gxgHVPSQO4iN7QaM6ICIAw&usg=AFQjCNHPA_nb0YvkKjEe56DgAR3VnyT98w&bvm=bv.74115972,d.ZGU&cad=rja

Sorry about the size of the link.

 

[Lenny HB]

I found these guideline:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEUQFjAC&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/207641/iva-declaration-form-seat-belt-anchorage-compliance-iva-19a-b.doc&ei=gxgHVPSQO4iN7QaM6ICIAw&usg=AFQjCNHPA_nb0YvkKjEe56DgAR3VnyT98w&bvm=bv.74115972,d.ZGU&cad=rja

Sorry about the size of the link.

@cronkle To make a short link, if you enter a description for the link then highlight it, then click on the "chain Link" symbol you can then past the link and it will look like this:-

Seatbelt anchor requirements.

 

[peterc10]

I found these guideline:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEUQFjAC&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/207641/iva-declaration-form-seat-belt-anchorage-compliance-iva-19a-b.doc&ei=gxgHVPSQO4iN7QaM6ICIAw&usg=AFQjCNHPA_nb0YvkKjEe56DgAR3VnyT98w&bvm=bv.74115972,d.ZGU&cad=rja

Sorry about the size of the link.

Just have a look at those and you will see the point I am making. Before VOSA will accept new seat belts you have to provide "evidence of compliance for the complete installation, even though various components may individually have traceability to a technical standard". And you will need to provide an Installation Declaration from the vehicle converter or manufacturer.

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[Geo]

That particular document refers to IVA testing of new unregistered vehicles
and has little to do with retro fitting of seat belts.
As far as I am concerned as an Authorised Vehicle Examiner you can bolt your new belts to the Fridge door so long as you lock it
A short sharp tug and a look for excess corrosion is where my responsibility ends
lets be serious for a moment referring back to Brians Mini Days
You are aware, are you not that the forces required to pull a M12 seatbelt bolt head, through a half inch ply floor would result in your death anyway so fixing it to a chassis, could be argued, forgive the pun Overkill.
As a National MotorSport Cheif Scrutineer I have seen some realy horrendous attempts at DIY Seat Belt Mount Installations, we call it Pigeon S**t welding Some could have been done by a fully qualified Chef with sticks in his eyes and a hood on, you get it im sure.
Many failures ???? Nope, None, I can recall in over 25 years in the sport.
That to me says that if fitted by a competent person using the laws of physics, common sense and a few nuts and bolts anything is possible to a safe exceptable standard
Remember a slight tug and a look at what is visible for corrosion.
BUT The responsibility for safe use IS YOURS
Would I retro fit belts Yes with a clear conscience

 

[deleted-member02]

@DenDastardly a few Hymer B680 have a front dinette (with at least two seat belts) and a rear U lounge (with no belts)
They rarely come up for sale and invariably sell quickly but they are out there....

 

[Mikeco]

Just have a look at those and you will see the point I am making. Before VOSA will accept new seat belts you have to provide "evidence of compliance for the complete installation, even though various components may individually have traceability to a technical standard". And you will need to provide an Installation Declaration from the vehicle converter or manufacturer.

You are looking at the wrong information, there are clear guidelines on the VOSA site which even gives you the size of spreader plate required to comply. In my case I discussed it with the MOT tester before I did the work.

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[peterc10]

You are looking at the wrong information, there are clear guidelines on the VOSA site which even gives you the size of spreader plate required to comply. In my case I discussed it with the MOT tester before I did the work.

Then can you provide a link please