Remap illegal from Jan? (1 Viewer)

[Road Runner]

As it happens on my Volvo 20K service last week they wanted my permission to re map it.

Bloody nuisance as electric seat multi positioning had to be reset


Plus my trip was set to do my fuel count and was reset to zero..........

 

[chrisgreen]

do WOW tuning do their remaps on a rolling road?

 

[chrisgreen]

Im still waiting for an answer to Shiftzz post,
How does anyone know? how can I inform my insurance company if I buy a second hand van with this done? how would I even know?

you or shiffty would have to take it to a main dealer and have it checked:thumb:

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[Jaws]

The only sure way would be to get it reflashed back to standard

It is very easy to hide commands outside their normal params, with a goto line added

Remember, these things might come across as complex ( and indeed the processing power is quite amazing considering the application ) but they are a low grade computer and the program is held on a pretty standard 16 bit ( and in most cases ) a 1024k eprom

 

[Wow]

Remapping Illegal?

Thanks to Jim for emailing me, he caught me just before going off on my holidays!!

I am happy to explain our take on this rumours about 'illegal chipping'. Before anyone says " you bound to say that aren't you" I will answer exactly how it is, no bull.

This issue is nothing new and has been around now for over a year, based on a working paper from the ministry where they are looking to ratify testing across Europe.

Apart from spotting tuning boxes (which an owner can remove before their MOT), it would be IMPOSSIBLE to test every vehicle to see if it was remapped.

We did a detailled study when this first came out and this is a summary of key points that we concluded:

Every one of the 15,000+ MOT Test stations would need the following:

• Approxmately £30,000-£40,000 of new equipment - thats £500 million+

• A dedicated technician to read the ECU on every vehicle. Sometimes this might be through the diagnostic socket, sometimes by removing the ECU, opening it up, removing the 'chip' and reading it, along with every other variance and technique that we use to read vehicles. This type of work could not be carried out by 99.9% of exisiting MOT testers, so 15,000 trained technicians need recruiting.

• Access to manufacturers records and software versions for every vehicle sold since 2001 along with copy of every original software revision, or what had been subsequently updated during a manufacturers service. The quanity of files in the database would run into millions. HOWEVR its a non-starter as the manufacturers would never release copies of their company confidential ECU files, in the first place.

• Another dedicated software technician able to open up and compare the current file to the original file. There's probably about 150-200 people in the country capable of doing this now, so again the recruitment and training costs would be incalcuable.

The total impossibility of doing this makes it a non-starter, even before you get into who's going to pay for it. The test fee would probably triple, tests would take 2-3 times as long.

I hope that puts everyones mind at rest, personally i'm not worried about it as it simply can't happen. BUT, misinformation and rumours do worry me, of course so thanks to Jim once again for getting in touch, now i'm going back to my packing!

 

[haganap]

you or shiffty would have to take it to a main dealer and have it checked:thumb:

sorry Chris that's twaddle. As said, that would mean them reading the installed map, sending it off to HQ to have the bones picked out of it, looking at the vast catalouge of maps available and then giving the yes or no answer.
So 3/4 of the population now have to do that everytime we buy a used car?

And, I can state fact that insurance companies are not as bad as what people make out.

They can not simply refuse to pay out after an accident, they have to prove or you have to prove which ever way it works that the accident was related in some way to the contributing factor.
How do I know this? well twice on bikes Ive succumbed to Insurance companies, once for race cans, they paid out after an assessor's visit as he could not state with any fact that the loud pipes contributed to the accident in any shape or form despite being illegal.

Then I had a big off with a bald tyre, lost a few quid due to the insurance saying that it could be attributed to the accident as stopping distance increased. result, lost £500 of a 4k claim.

these thread's do nothing but put the fear of god in to people,

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[Jaws]

Cheers to Chris from WOW! ( actually.................. for repeating pretty much everything I said in my post earlier in the thread.. indeed it is good to know I was not talking out of the wrong end !!! )

 

[haganap]

Yes thank's Chris, never changed me mind anyway, Thank's for the email, expecting Graham round in a 2 weeks time. :thumb:

 

[Jaws]

If my experience in anything to go by Paul, you will not regret it !:thumb:

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[chrisgreen]

so haggers im talking twaddle,would you put your motorhome on it?
a simple yes or no will do:thumb:

 

[Wow]

sorry Chris that's twaddle. As said, that would mean them reading the installed map, sending it off to HQ to have the bones picked out of it, looking at the vast catalouge of maps available and then giving the yes or no answer.

Haha twaddle indeed! With all due respect, you clearly don't know the exact process.

We've been at business a long time, we remap 125-175 vehicles a week, so we kinda know what were talking about. Our study wasn't done on the back of a fag packet, over a pint you know.

Taking your model, how big would you team at HQ be to open up, compare 25,000,000 files a year at a minimum of 15-20 minutes each?? I reckon another 5,000 new civil servants would do it, plus offices, managers, pensions, computers, software, etc.

If you were a manufacturer, would you be happy to say yes, here's every software file of every vehicle we've ever sold. AND, here's the service and update history of every vehicle we've ever sold too.

What happens with a vehicle that the ECU has been sheer-bolted in, that takes an hour to remove, who's going to pay for replacement sheer bolts?
Then another 15 minutes to crack upen the ECU and a complete pig to read because of the anti-tuning software. Is this sort of car unusual, no - virtually every BMW, Mercedes, Audi and VW since 2008!

What happens if the ECU is damaged and car won't start, who pays the £1,500 for a new ECU.

You are right though, this sort of thread does nothing but put the fear of god into people!!!

 

[Jaws]

Chris ( as of WOW! Chris ) .. Haganap was not saying YOUR post is twaddle, but the OTHER chris's post !!

Confused yet ? Well if you are you aint the only one !!:thumb:

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[chrisgreen]

sorry Chris that's twaddle. As said, that would mean them reading the installed map, sending it off to HQ to have the bones picked out of it, looking at the vast catalouge of maps available and then giving the yes or no answer.

Haha twaddle indeed! With all due respect, you clearly don't know the exact process.

We've been at business a long time, we remap 125-175 vehicles a week, so we kinda know what were talking about. Our study wasn't done on the back of a fag packet, over a pint you know.

Taking your model, how big would you team at HQ be to open up, compare 25,000,000 files a year at a minimum of 15-20 minutes each?? I reckon another 5,000 new civil servants would do it, plus offices, managers, pensions, computers, software, etc.

If you were a manufacturer, would you be happy to say yes, here's every software file of every vehicle we've ever sold. AND, here's the service and update history of every vehicle we've ever sold too.

What happens with a vehicle that the ECU has been sheer-bolted in, that takes an hour to remove, who's going to pay for replacement sheer bolts?
Then another 15 minutes to crack upen the ECU and a complete pig to read because of the anti-tuning software. Is this sort of car unusual, no - virtually every BMW, Mercedes, Audi and VW since 2008!

What happens if the ECU is damaged and car won't start, who pays the £1,500 for a new ECU.

You are right though, this sort of thread does nothing but put the fear of god into people!!!

chris i think haggers is refering to me not you :thumb:
are your maps off the shelf or tailored?
do you test drive with a data logger or use a rolling road?

 

[chrisgreen]

WOW as you increase the torque,and motorhomes run at almost max weight most of the time,would you recomend fitting a heavy duty clutch,to handle heavy footed drivers like me?

 

[chrisgreen]

WOW can you honestly say if you remap my car (vauxhall vectra c sri150) that if i take it to my dealer that he would not be able to find the remap???????

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[haganap]

on what? insurance payout? or remap trace?
and why would I put my motorhome on it?

Im stating facts on two insurance claims, both on bikes, not a gassing guessing game, actual facts that have happened. What do you wanna do, crash me motorhome and then try it out with a claim?

or

Trace a remap? by sending it to some Fiat engineer place to have it read who has all the equipment?
Still twaddle but I can't win im on a no brainer when you look above.

 

[haganap]

sorry Chris that's twaddle. As said, that would mean them reading the installed map, sending it off to HQ to have the bones picked out of it, looking at the vast catalouge of maps available and then giving the yes or no answer.

Haha twaddle indeed! With all due respect, you clearly don't know the exact process.

We've been at business a long time, we remap 125-175 vehicles a week, so we kinda know what were talking about. Our study wasn't done on the back of a fag packet, over a pint you know.

Taking your model, how big would you team at HQ be to open up, compare 25,000,000 files a year at a minimum of 15-20 minutes each?? I reckon another 5,000 new civil servants would do it, plus offices, managers, pensions, computers, software, etc.

If you were a manufacturer, would you be happy to say yes, here's every software file of every vehicle we've ever sold. AND, here's the service and update history of every vehicle we've ever sold too.

What happens with a vehicle that the ECU has been sheer-bolted in, that takes an hour to remove, who's going to pay for replacement sheer bolts?
Then another 15 minutes to crack upen the ECU and a complete pig to read because of the anti-tuning software. Is this sort of car unusual, no - virtually every BMW, Mercedes, Audi and VW since 2008!

What happens if the ECU is damaged and car won't start, who pays the £1,500 for a new ECU.

You are right though, this sort of thread does nothing but put the fear of god into people!!!

woohooo,,, hold your horse powers there Chris,
I think i you read back you will find I dopn know the processes, I spent long enough studying them, and if I didn't then Graham wouldnt, be coming round my house in a fortnight.
your the wrong Chris

 

[chrisgreen]

sorry Chris that's twaddle. As said, that would mean them reading the installed map, sending it off to HQ to have the bones picked out of it, looking at the vast catalouge of maps available and then giving the yes or no answer.

Haha twaddle indeed! With all due respect, you clearly don't know the exact process.

cheers chris(wow) for the above,thats what's i thought:thumb:

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[Wow]

chris i think haggers is refering to me not you :thumb:
are your maps off the shelf or tailored?
do you test drive with a data logger or use a rolling road?

Ooops sorry Haggers!!
All our maps are custom to the software revision of the vehicle and customer requirement. So there would be a big customisation for instance in a map for a 3 ton sprinter box van over a 5 ton Le Voyager towiing a Smart car. Every vehicle type goes on the rolling road during initial development.

 

[haganap]

sorry Chris that's twaddle. As said, that would mean them reading the installed map, sending it off to HQ to have the bones picked out of it, looking at the vast catalouge of maps available and then giving the yes or no answer.

Haha twaddle indeed! With all due respect, you clearly don't know the exact process.

cheers chris(wow) for the above,thats what's i thought:thumb:

cheep shot Chris, especially when you re-read it, as I said, it can be done, it would take too much time and too much of a process...

think im right, in what I say and stand by it.
till tomorrow
Good night, :thumb:

 

[Wow]

WOW as you increase the torque,and motorhomes run at almost max weight most of the time,would you recomend fitting a heavy duty clutch,to handle heavy footed drivers like me?

Honestly, we get very few clutch problems as commercial vehciles are built to take it and also we develop ouf files to be non-agressive lower down, giving smooth power delivery

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[Wow]

WOW can you honestly say if you remap my car (vauxhall vectra c sri150) that if i take it to my dealer that he would not be able to find the remap???????

100% not, its not within the capability of the GM scan tool or dealer. And from experience after owning a main dealership for a number of years, we simply didn't care if it was or not and even chipped new vehicles with the manufacturers private blessing. The ECU would have to be removed and sent to Vauxhall for them to analyse the file.

 

[Wow]

cheep shot Chris, especially when you re-read it, as I said, it can be done, it would take too much time and too much of a process...

think im right, in what I say and stand by it.
till tomorrow
Good night, :thumb:

Yes, i know i'm an idiot as I didn't read the other Chris's post first!!

 

[chrisgreen]

but haggers! john posted only the other day that a biker had an insurance claim knocked back on a tank sticker,true or not true john?
it was bennets insurance i think?

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[chrisgreen]

100% not, its not within the capability of the GM scan tool or dealer. And from experience after owning a main dealership for a number of years, we simply didn't care if it was or not and even chipped new vehicles with the manufacturers private blessing. The ECU would have to be removed and sent to Vauxhall for them to analyse the file.

im glad you said that on an open forum,cheers:thumb:

i will speak with our programmer:thumb:

 

[chrisgreen]

Honestly, we get very few clutch problems as commercial vehciles are built to take it and also we develop ouf files to be non-agressive lower down, giving smooth power delivery

no problem's with dual mass fly wheel's?

 

[haganap]

but haggers! john posted only the other day that a biker had an insurance claim knocked back on a tank sticker,true or not true john?
it was bennets insurance i think?

Not true, Im afraid, an attempt by an insurance company and nothing more. It was in Motorcycle news which as a real motorcyclist you should know is like reading a down market daily mail and always has been.

There is such a thing as the insurance ombudsman for these things. As said mine are based on facts. I had two assessors on the bald tyre thing in my garage, Im sure we have some insurance experts on here that will back it up. You can not simply decide whom and when you decide to pay up or not on a claim, there is a process involved and in many cases (spraying your car a different colour) could lead to a premium increase and not a refusal to payout, or we would never ever get any money, even cases of people leaving the keys in there car and then having it stolen have been paid after the ombudsman have got involved.

With the Mapping thing, read back through it, you clearly informed me that Merc could read my map and tell me its illegal or wrong by looking on a box. Wont happen, I clearly stated that too do that the map would have to be inspected and analysed. You suggest that any insurance company can again get this info with a box. Its way more complicated as Chris at WOw has backed me up and given reasons as too why that aint ever going to happen at your local MOT station. Geo done that only a few months ago on another thread and again on an earlier thread and yet again another thread goes running stating the same, next month or the month after another will come and remapping will be confined to the same legalities as Aframes,

Again as said, earlier, I only know as much as I do today , because I spent so much time yesterday having a trawl through articles whilst deciding if to have a smart box or a proper map done, not because Im an expert as clearly Im not.

im having mine done and am in receipt of all the information, it will be the 7th vechile I have had done in my time and would have it done without hesitation again, because its safe, it works and does what I want it to do.
The legalities of it? I will await the test cases that no doubt will come in Spain when someone is stopped towing an aframe from Elvis with his certificate of conformity and his remapped van paperwork in his hand. Then I will await to see the result of that, if it goes against him, using a decent company like WOW, I know they will come and put me back to standard.
Now then, what you fishing for tomorrow?

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[Jaws]

but haggers! john posted only the other day that a biker had an insurance claim knocked back on a tank sticker,true or not true john?
it was bennets insurance i think?

Yup.. perfectly true

And the company had so much crap over it they have completely rehashed what they consider needs to be listed as a modification

Bottom line is though Chris, that we are talking about a motorhome here, not a bike

A bike equivalent would be something line a Dynojet Power Commander.
It has a physical presence .. kinda stands out like a sore thumb and is more usually associated with trying to get more performance ( as in go faster / quicker ).
A motorhome remap will:
a) Be incredibly difficult to detect and if YOU, the owner do not know it is there then there is no chance of someone else wagging a finger and shouting AHAH ! at you..

b) not have been done for more top end but usually for more torque to allow higher gear to be used in any given situation. In other words for economy. That is an accepted given which is why you see so often folk say 'I told the insurers but they said it made no difference'

Basically insurance companies might be toads and rip off merchant but they aint daft either

 

[Jaws]

Looks like I was posting at the same time Paul.. sorry.. sort of doubled up the info re Bennetts

 

[chrisgreen]

found john's thread,as you see insurance company's try any thing to get out of paying.Broken Link Removed

dont get me wrong i remaped our vectra as a project,to see what we could get out of it,and we could have gone over 200 bhp but left it at 190bhp,cant remember the torque,but the engine is less stressed revs freely and better on fuel,and for a diesel goes like a scolded cat,and pulles like a train,all done on a rolling road with all the other mods taken into concideration,after market k&n,dpf removed,dpf replaced,egr valve blanked off,egr not blanked,swirl valves locked out,swirl valves reconected and combinations of all of them,we tryed the lot :thumb:we had some intresting reading spraying water down the inletbut the wife has to use the car daily so settled on how it is now,or before it went bang

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