Please some one dumped the toad for a trailer

Discussion in 'Motorhome Chat' started by slobadoberbob, Oct 11, 2010.

  1. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    No names, no pack drill, but one of our friends on the forum has purchased a Ivor Williams four wheel trailer - so good bye toad.

    Now I do not know if he will still use the toad, but the feeling from speaking to him recently it was to replace the toad facility.. As he said he could put the car on the trailer and if he had to move the trailer the car had a tow ball and he could move the trailer if he had to.

    Now that is progress.. and in my humble legal opinion the way to go... he will be 100% legal in the UK, and all of Europe including Spain. Plus he can reverse the trailer where he cannot with the toad equipment and he has 4 brakes all working as they should.

    Come on:Blush: I am ready... lets hear the arguements? been a good week or so since we had the never ending story debate on the legalities of a toad.:Doh:


    Bob:thumb:
     
  2. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

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    never mind the arguments what braking system did he have on the toad, what "A" frame, are they for sale?
     
  3. grumps147

    grumps147 Funster

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    Having only recently changed from caravan to motorhome, one of the aims was to get rid of the trailer.

    This depends heavily on using sites/aires where you can walk to facilities or have good public transport nearby - save for stop-over situations.

    I have not ruled out towing a car in the future, so then its the argument of 'A' frame or trailer.

    The biggest issue for me is the legal arguments around 'A' frames and the uncertainty of their position, even in the UK. I cannot afford to be the legal test case if some enthusiastic enforcement officer decides I am the one to go to town on for 'A' frame use.

    I know there are many proponents amongst funsters, but personally I think its building on sand relying on the word of suppliers who sell them - whats the legal expression - caveat emptor??

    It also completely rules out travel in large parts of Europe. So, unless there are some pretty significant legal rulings in favour of 'A' frame use across europe, if I do decide I need to tow a small car it will be on a full trailer.
     
  4. Geo

    Geo Trader - Funster

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    The benefits and dare i say even the legality of using a trailer over an A frame is only your opinion Bob:Wink:
    I personally disagree:Smile:
    If it were as clear cut as you suggest this whole thread would not be here:Doh:
    The legality of a trailer has been called into question many times, even confiscated in Spain for example, where they require a separate MoT test and reg No:RollEyes:
    Geo
     
  5. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

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    so do I argue in favour or against "A" frames today, well lets just say I have a non braked recovery "A" frame that gets occasionally used (for recovery). I would not wish to tow with either a trailer or "A" frame as a regular thing but just occassionally I'd choose the frame route, no trailer to park or get nicked when you leave it. mind you I don't like leaving the motorhome anyway.
     
  6. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    Against trailer:

    * heavy beast to manhandle if it needs moved around a pitch, particularly on grass .. even my little 750kg GVW box trailer was a struggle.
    * take up three spaces on a pitch. It can be hard enough finding a pitch big enough for an RV + toad without a trailer..
    * security, as Roger said
    * storage at home
    * legality in Spain, as Geo's post
    * cost, about double that of an A frame.
    *

    For .. can't think of any

    Against A frame.

    * Spain, may get fined
    * can't reverse ( yes I know some say they can, I couldn't )


    A frame wins hands down .. I can think of no good reason to use a trailer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2010
  7. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    keep going

    Go one keep going... I just lit the match.. you all know my views and the issues I have argued before.. but I do love to see how wound up you get about it... Me I am sitting on the fence for now

    Bob:Rofl1:
     
  8. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    no one is wound up Bob.. facts are facts, as you should know M'Lud :Wink:

    I think it is you who is wound up.. knickers in a twist :BigGrin:
     
  9. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    are you glued to the computer Jim?


    Well that was a fast reply Jim..glued to the computer this morning?

    I was not starting a legal argument today - honest.. :Blush: just reported one of our fellow Yank owners had decided to buy a Brian James trailer and from a conversation I had with him he is putting the car that has the toad equipment fitted on the trailer and not pulling it behind him. Why I wonder?

    I just posed the usual question of is he right or wrong.. as for me I pull a trailer as everyone knows.. But with the legal hat on.. and I did bring to Bath & West the Wilkinson Road Traffic law books - no one wanted to see them... I had the construction and use regs all there. Until I see case law that says it is legal then I work on the same rules as the Europeans do that it is illegal. Just because the law has not yet been defind in a case that has been tested to the European Courts does not make it legal to use a toad... regardless what the selling companies tell you..are they going to pay your fine and take the points?. Even a first year law student can tell you that. Me I am to long in the tooth, with to many years under my legal belt to even think that those that want to break the law will stop doing so. You can lead the horse to water etc., etc.,

    It is all OK until the day the blue lights in the back up camera pull you in for a breach of the construction and use regulations... can't happen? beleive me it can. What do you think VOSA do all day. In the last 5 years they have become very practive with laybye stops. Not just the roll on scales either.

    I am 100% legal and I still get goose bumps when I see one of there vans on the side of the road just looking for an excuse to pull someone for a check.

    But as a lawyer what do I know Jim:Blush:

    Anyway lets see the post develope.. it is always interesting. At least one person in my mind has seen the light at the end of the tunnel.

    By the way you can get caravan movers now fitted to trailers so they are not so heavy as some may think. I saw one company demoing a trailer at Lincoln with a mover on it. So that argument or excuse is a little bit thin on the ground.

    Storage is another issue and very valid.. see I can give and take as the case may be.:Blush:

    Bob:Eeek:
     
  10. carpyone

    carpyone Read Only Funster

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    Just my opinion! but it must be painful "sitting on the fence" with his knickers in a twist.:Rofl1::Eeek:

    I've posted my opinion in earlier posts on a-frames,so I need make no further comment
     
  11. Skeggysue

    Skeggysue Funster

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    I don't know why folk fall out or get stroppy over things like this and I can never really understand why these topics become quite so heated at times????

    We are all mature thinking adults and being a member of this and other motorhome related forums; I am sure by now we all have the necessary facts to hand re A Frames versus trailers and most of us are quite capable of making perfectly informed choices re such matters! How we arrive at our final decision is dependant on so many factors and when we do finally make our choice, I am sure we have all carefully weighed up the pros and cons before coming to a conclusion over which towing method best suits our needs?

    I am quite happy to advise where asked and pass on any experience I have gleened through life to others and if it is of some benefit and help to them, then that is wonderful and I am pleased my advice was of some use - but at the end of the day, only they can decide what is right and wise for them and that is the stage, where I would stand back and say how they go from thereon in, is entriely down to them! :Wink:

    Does it really matter if others agree or disagree with your decision and providing you are satsified with your choice, I would just rise above all the negativity and sarcasm and blissfully just do your own thing! :Smile:

    Sue
     
  12. Snowbird

    Snowbird Funster Life Member

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    Had a Brian James trailer before the toad,got fed up with trying to find somwhere on Spanish campsites to park it,having an RV when over wintering a toad is a necesity.
    Got done twice in Spain for being overlength with the trailer.
    Never been done with the toad from the Nordcap down to the Sahara.
    For me its a no brainer,everything has its problems but trailers are a nightmare finding somwhere secure to put the things.
     
  13. ArenqueRojo

    ArenqueRojo Read Only Funster

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    We started off with, not an A-frame, but a draw bar toad (ie. front wheels lifted. Worked fine and we spent several months in Spain without problems.

    Then we changed to a trailer.

    The main reasons were:
    1. that although I was ready to prove that my drawbar system was perfectly legal anywhere, I didn't really want to either sit in a Spanish or German jail knowing that I would be let out soon when the lawyers had earned their share.
    2. We wanted a little more payload than the van could give us. Now the trailor carries the Smart; a folding boat; a 6HP outboard motor; Spare 1.3m dish; two lounger chairs and a few other odds and ends. More toys = more fun.:RollEyes:

    And no, Jim, no problems with campsites. Always offer to park the trailer in the carpark or wherever and only once been taken up on the offer (Italy, of course). Secure as anything, easily parked with us on most pitches. Useful "tent" when it rains so often used to dry washing... etc.

    Horses for courses again, I reckon.

    Patrick
     
  14. JJ

    JJ Funster

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    Are there any threads on watching paint dry?

    JJ
     
  15. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    no, but there is a video, much better :thumb: :Rofl1::Rofl1::Rofl1:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1VEY7ndKCs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1VEY7ndKCs[/ame]
     
  16. novawight

    novawight Read Only Funster

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    Whats the fuss? I don,t think you need either, if you are in that frame of mind ( no pun intended) why not ditch both and become a tugger :Rofl1:
     
  17. jaygee

    jaygee Funster

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    all 4 wheels have to be off the ground to tow in Spain i.e. you cannnot tow on a rope,bar,dolly or toad, thth's the law.
    We have a car in Spain and if we want a tow bar fittted then we have to have it done by a registered garage and it has to be added to the log book, it will be inspected with the MOT each year and if not got right paperwork will not pass MOT. All insurance in Spain included breakdown recovery due to the fact that you cannot tow a vehicle.
     
  18. John & Joan

    John & Joan Funster

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    This post is on http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml

    Quote

    Forthcoming Legislation

    (24/9/2010)
    The current European Type Approval legislation for trailers, 71/320/EEC, is due to be rescinded in 2014 and replaced by UN ECE Regulation 13. Part of this Regulation (section 5.2.2.2) stipulates that inertia braking systems will only be permitted on centre axle trailers. This may mean that it will no longer be possible to use inertia braking systems on A-frames.

    At the moment it is unclear how this change will be interpreted with regard to A-frames. This type of legislation change is not normally retrospective so A-frames currently in use should not be affected, however it is possible that the Department for Transport may take a different view.

    The next question that arises is how does type approval apply in the case of a car on an A-Frame? Obviously the car will be type approved in it's own right, but what happens when it is converted into a trailer by the addition of an A-frame? It may be that it will be the original supplier/fitter of the A-Frame who will need to ensure that the braking of the combined unit of car + A-frame conforms to UN ECE Regulation 13 for any A-frames supplied or fitted after this regulation comes into force. However, until the DfT make a decision it would be unwise to make any assumptions!
     
  19. Jaws

    Jaws Funster Life Member

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    WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Absolutely stonking vid..
    How on earth did they get such clarity ..

    I have watched it twice already simply because I cannot believe the detail...

    Cheers Jim.. A very worthwhile post mate..... greatly appreciated :thumb:
     
  20. Loddy

    Loddy Read Only Funster

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    Bob

    I keep trying to read your blogs as suggested, but alas I keep falling asleep :Doh:

    Loddy
     
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