Oradour Sur Glane (1 Viewer)

[scotjimland]

I was responding to DLT who equated Nazis to Germans. Thanks to your stats, I can quote that 63.2% of German voters did not vote for Hitler. Let's not tar all by the actions of a minority.

fact remains..this is the most documented, systematic, industrial slaughter of human beings in all of recorded civilised history and it was carried out by the German nation..

not just Germans, there were French collaborators who actively helped root out and send Jews to death camps .. it could not have been done without the help and co operation of millions of ordinary people.

By 1944 the war was in its death throes for the Germans, but the extermination process was at its zenith, what does that tell you? Well, it tells you a lot.
How can a country on total war footing continue to move, house, manage and exterminate millions of people while at the same time, use those sparing resources on war production? They can't, not without a lot of help. Where was this help?.. The German nation of course.

But blaming or in your words 'tarring' doesn't bring back the dead.. did we learn ? could it happen again.. ?

I say no, we didn't learn.. and yes it could

Man's inhumanity to man knows no bounds.. it is still happening today.. in Aleppo .. bombing, gassing and killing of innocent children.. and we do nothing .. just as millions of Germans did nothing to stop the transportation and murder of millions of Jews.. doing nothing is guilty by association .. guilty by doing nothing

 

[MattR]

fact remains..this is the most documented, systematic, industrial slaughter of human beings in all of recorded civilised history and it was carried out by the German nation..

not just Germans, there were French collaborators who actively helped root out and send Jews to death camps .. it could not have been done without the help and co operation of millions of ordinary people.

By 1944 the war was in its death throes for the Germans, but the extermination process was at its zenith, what does that tell you? Well, it tells you a lot.
How can a country on total war footing continue to move, house, manage and exterminate millions of people while at the same time, use those sparing resources on war production? They can't, not without a lot of help. Where was this help?.. The German nation of course.

But blaming or in your words 'tarring' doesn't bring back the dead.. did we learn ? could it happen again.. ?

I say not we didn't learn.. and yes it could

Man's inhumanity to man knows no bounds.. it is still happening today.. in Aleppo .. bombing, gassing and killing of innocent children.. and we do nothing .. just as millions of Germans did nothing to stop the transportation and murder of millions of Jews.. doing nothing is guilty by association .. guilty by doing nothing

We've sat back and watched it in Rwanda, Bosnia, Syria

 

[Snowbird]

The Trial at Bordeaux 1953


http://www.oradour.info/ruined/ruined.htm

http://www.oradour.info/ruined/chapter5.htm

The Verdicts
The verdicts were announced at 02:10 am on Friday 13th February 1953 after the tribunal had deliberated for thirty-two hours. The defendants were asleep in their cells and were wakened to hear their fate. Before the sentences were read out, the Great Bell of Bordeaux was rung in memory of the dead of Oradour. Not many people were surprised at the results, but that did not of course prevent the expression of disgust from both Alsace and the Limousin. Feelings in Germany itself were not surprisingly largely ignored by the French, but the Germans also had reason to feel unhappy.

German Nationals:
In addition to their sentences, all the Germans were barred from living in France for 20 years. This was a curious addition, as it is difficult to see why they would ever want to reside in a country, which so despised them.

Karl Lenz … Death

Wilhelm Blaeschke … 12 years hard labour

Wilhelm Boehme … 10 years hard labour

Fritz Pfeufer … 10 years hard labour

Hermann Frenzel … 10 years jail

Herbert Daab … 12 years hard labour

Erwin Dagenhardt … Acquitted (he was able to prove that he was not in Oradour during the killings)

Wilhelm Nobbe … Not present in court, as he had been found clinically insane prior to the trial beginning and so was not actually tried at all.

French nationals.
Georg René Boos … Death

Paul Graff … 8 years jail

Albert Daul … 8 years hard labour

Jean-Pierre Elsässer … 6 years jail

Louis Hoehlinger … 6 years jail

Albert Ochs … 5 years hard labour

Joseph Busch … 8 years hard labour

Antoine Lohner … 7 years hard labour

Fernand Giedinger … 8 years hard labour

Alfred Spaeth … 5 years hard labour

Louis Prestel … 6 years hard labour

Henri Weber … 6 years jail

Jean Niess … 5 years hard labour

Camille Grienenberger … 8 years hard labour

1) Of the 46 not present at the trial, all were condemned to death in their absence including Kahn and Lammerding. This blanket condemnation had of course the effect of driving all these men even further out of the public view and rendering their testimony under oath lost to the causes of the truth, justice and history.

2) As can be seen from the above sentences, the German defendants received longer terms of imprisonment (about one-third longer) than the Alsatians.

Maybe I should have made myself clearer Jim. The trials were only token and no one has ever been brought before the courts for what can only be described as a war crime of the most serious magnitude. Those that were brought before the courts and found guilty were released within the year.

On 12 January 1953, a military tribunal in Bordeaux heard the charges against the surviving 65 of the 200 or so SS men who had been involved. Only 21 of them were present, as many were now in East Germany, which would not permit their extradition. Seven of those charged were German citizens, but 14 were Alsatians, French nationals whose home region had been annexed by Germany in 1940. All but one of the Alsatians claimed to have been forced to join the Waffen-SS. Such forced conscripts from Alsace and Lorraine called themselves the malgré-nous, meaning "against our will".

On 11 February, 20 defendants were found guilty. Continuing uproar in Alsace (including demands for autonomy) pressed the French parliament to pass an amnesty law for all the malgré-nous on 19 February. The convicted Alsatian former SS men were released shortly afterwards. However, this caused bitter protests in the Limousinregion.

The last trial of a Waffen-SS member who had been involved took place in 1983. Former SS-ObersturmführerHeinz Barth was tracked down in the German Democratic Republic. Barth had participated in the Oradour-sur-Glane massacre as a platoon leader in the "Der Führer" regiment, commanding 45 Stormtroopers. He was one of several charged with giving orders to shoot 20 men in a garage. Barth was sentenced to life imprisonment by the First Senate of the City Court of Berlin. He was released from prison in the reunified Germany in 1997 and died in August 2007.

On 8 January 2014, Werner Christukat,[7] an 88-year-old former member of the 3rd Company of the 1st Battalion of the "Der Führer" SS regiment was charged, by the state court in Cologne, with 25 charges of murder and hundreds of counts of accessory to murder in connection with the massacre in Oradour-sur-Glane.[8] The suspect, who was identified only as Werner C., had until 31 March 2014 to respond to the charges. If the case went to trial, it could have possibly been held in a juvenile court because the suspect was only 19 at the time. According to his attorney, , the suspect acknowledges being at the village but denies being involved in any killings.[9]On 9 December 2014, the court dropped the case citing a lack of any witness statements or reliable documentary evidence able to disprove the suspect's contention that he was not a part of the massacre.[10]

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[Anthea M]

We found the place very emotive and glad we visited but not sure if I need to go again . The images in the museum and stark reminder of the burnt out village will always remain with me.
All visitors were very respectful when we were there and the place was very very quiet . We stayed on the free aire up the hill and watched and felt the worst rain lightening hale wind storm we had ever witnessed that night.all added to the ambience of the place.

 

[laneside]

Each time we take visitors there I just cannot comprehend mans inhumanity to man, if I was commanded to carry out such a crime I would shoot the commander. The daft thing is we have learned absolutely nothing from it as it is still going on all over the world this very day

 

[Kool Kroozer]

Each time we take visitors there I just cannot comprehend mans inhumanity to man, if I was commanded to carry out such a crime I would shoot the commander. The daft thing is we have learned absolutely nothing from it as it is still going on all over the world this very day

Totally agree, we all want good in the world to make it a nice safe place yet we stand by and do nothing while the same is going on in the likes of Syria, whoever thinks man is clever couldn't be more wrong

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[rangi]

I was in hospital at Ludenschide (spelling?) in the next bed was an SS veteran. He was 16 when he was conscripted in 1944. He was one of those lucky enough, to be sent west rather than east.
He was there in hospital to get a few lumps of shrapnel removed from his legs
Him and his buddy surrendered to a British Platoon, he was asked how old he was he said 16, the Brit Sergant took his equipment and told him to go home, he thought Jeez this is good , him and his mate started to walk away when the Sergant, opened fire with an automatic weapon, he played dead, his mate died.
As the Brits walked away he heard "SS bastards"

Not all war crimes were commited by squaddies in field grey/green.

 

[frogijock]

The French did not plan it as a museum, it is meant as a reminder of the evil that humans carry out on each other in the name of war

 

[maison]

We visited several years ago.

Although it was a beautiful day we never heard a bird singing all the time we walked around.

On leaving, birdsong was heard as normal.

Spooky!

I feel it is a must visit place. We went as a result of a recommendation and would also recommend it ourselves.

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[Mack100]

I don't see how having a museum and showing film clips is in any way glorifying those terrible events.
A lot of the young people including school children may have had little or no information regarding what happened there. The museum is just one way of informing them.
We visited the concentration camp of Natzweiler-Strutthof some years back, it's situated in Alsace.
There were school parties from Germany there and we got chatting to a teacher. He said that all the children they took there returned home in stunned silence, they had no idea what happened during the nazi era.
It may be different now.
It's no more glorifying the event than when the pacifists crow on about Remembrance Day at the Cenotaph glorifying war, now that really makes my blood boil!

 

[Big Nick]

Germans knew of Holocaust horror about death camps
Details of deaths of Jews and other groups in concentration camps were well publicised
The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.
They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

 

[f6c]

Very Moving

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[The Wino]

Germans knew of Holocaust horror about death camps
Details of deaths of Jews and other groups in concentration camps were well publicised
The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.
They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

Our leaders manage to keep pretty quiet about the way the Russians treated the Poles when it suited them in WW2

 

[Steve and Kat]

Kat and I have just visited this place with the twins.. I've told them to one day come back here with their kids and make sure it's not forgotten... very moving place I must say..

How on earth a solider can shoot a child aged 2 months old is beyond me !!!

 

[Portland]

We visited years ago when you just walked in from the bottom car park5franc's. still remember the story of the ladies who escaped from the church,one was killed but the other hid in the cabbage field at the side. also the young Jewish boy who remembered the words of his grandfather who said no matter what the Germans promise! run away and hide! he did and survived . It's strange that a tram coming from Limoge was stopped outside The town and the occupants left unmolested

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[MitchandJenny]

With reference to the "Nation" supporting the Nazis.
In 1966 I was stationed in Bergen Belsen and used to drink in a few pubs that were on the road between the rail sidings and Belsen concentration camp.
I got to know Fred and his wife Erika who owned one of the bars, and I asked them one day if they were aware of the fate of the lines of people they watched being marched past their bar..
"Yes" they replied "and if we had said anything, we would have been joining them"...
That is a fact I established with many of the friends I made in Germany (through sport).
Hindsight always has 20/20 vision doesn't it !!!!
But I think, you had to BE there...
Mitch.
PS. Some of those friends I am still in contact with.

 

[laird of Dunstan]

i had similar misgivings about YPRES, there is a touristy element there that felt wrong ,even the original towns band made up of the local baker etc were concerned about the Last Post at the Menim gate becoming a tourist attraction,but the ceremony itself is carried out with the utmost dignity every evening , i came to the conclusion that the museum and the last post at the gate are required to help future generations remember the sacrifice that so many young men made .

 

[Poursay]

Was on my " to do list" and a couple of years ago we, along with a couple of friends, were in the area so decided to call. We were too late for the visitor centre so just popped into the town and called in to a cafe. I asked the owner about the village and he asked if we were English or German ( didn't say much for my French!) , when I said English he said, yes that the visitor centre was closed but gave us directions to get in at the back. It was in the evening with long shadows, the 2 ladies decided not to go in but Terry and I went in, it was very eerie and moving. We were the only people there and it is an experience that neither of us would forget. It is beyond comprehension that any human being could commit such atrocities but no doubt similar things are still going on today in North Africa, often in the name of their god!

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[busby]

we went a couple of years ago, did the walk through 'museum' bit, then went out into the village on a grey mizzly day, there was something not right, we only just got under the road and turned back

a very sad place, made so much worse by it being a mistake as well

I do think it needs to be there though

I think it should and every child ought to visit it,,,may make a difference to them in later life to learn the horrific truth not the sanitised version we are taught in school..The truth hurts but sometimes it is needed,,BUSBY,,

 

[busby]

No..

but the Nazi party were voted into power.. and they could not have committed the atrocities or conducted ethnic cleaning on an industrial scale without the knowledge and consent of millions of ordinary Germans..

Party Votes % Seats +/–
National Socialist German Workers Party
votes: 17,277,180
percentage: 43.91
seats: 288 +92

German federal election, March 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933

Don't know about consent,,what could they do about it ???BUSBY.

 

[MattR]

Was on my " to do list" and a couple of years ago we, along with a couple of friends, were in the area so decided to call. We were too late for the visitor centre so just popped into the town and called in to a cafe. I asked the owner about the village and he asked if we were English or German ( didn't say much for my French!) , when I said English he said, yes that the visitor centre was closed but gave us directions to get in at the back. It was in the evening with long shadows, the 2 ladies decided not to go in but Terry and I went in, it was very eerie and moving. We were the only people there and it is an experience that neither of us would forget. It is beyond comprehension that any human being could commit such atrocities but no doubt similar things are still going on today in North Africa, often in the name of their god!

Totally agree; the sad things is that despite similar attrocities in the Balkans, Rwanda etc. we continue to sit by and watch and we hear so many references to refugees being sent back to where they came from because we are "full" in the UK.

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[Mikey RV]

Plan on going there next month on our way down through France. I think there is a aire at the other end of the village also.

 

[GeriatricWanderer]

i had similar misgivings about YPRES, there is a touristy element there that felt wrong ,even the original towns band made up of the local baker etc were concerned about the Last Post at the Menim gate becoming a tourist attraction,but the ceremony itself is carried out with the utmost dignity every evening , i came to the conclusion that the museum and the last post at the gate are required to help future generations remember the sacrifice that so many young men made .

I think it also worth reminding us all that the tens of thousands of names on the Menin Gate, and on the Thiepval Memorial, are not only the names of some who died, they are the names of some of those whose remains were never found. They are still lying out there - somewhere.

......... and if you really want to feel that lump in your throat, go and visit the little White House Cemetery (
50.86169 2.89931) and find the graves of Herbert H Chase - Grave III P 1, William John Turpie - Grave II C 24, Alfred E Eveleigh – Grave III L 10, Robert W Gawler – Grave III L 9. Stand and ponder.


All Shot At Dawn

 

[Reallyretired]

I found it incredibly moving. Swmbo could not even manage to go in. The sign outside the school was enough for her.

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[laird of Dunstan]

i took my son on a motorcycle trip for a couple of weeks,it was mainly through belgium,france and Luxembourg .I was in germany and crossed over the border to belgium,we rode through towns whos names i cant remember ,but eh memory of the first Plaque to the jews of that town and the subsequent plaques of those who were rounded up to be transported to death camps will stick with me ,as i rode on i came upon an American flag ,i stopped for a look and it was the spot where some 90 US soldiers were massacred by the SS at the start of what became known as the "battle of the bulge" ,i took some time and read their names,later on i rode the battle field area with a Belgian hells angel ,he showed me stuff that was not on the map and we ended the trip with a visit to a grave in the woods that was looked after by the locals ,it was of a solitary american soldier who had been executed as a saboteur,it was in a clearing in a pine forrest,it was all very emotional.

One other thing that got to me was a german cemetary ,i was there with my Belgian buddy and he over heard two old germans talking and translated for me, they were both veterans of the german army who fought at the Bastoyne area ,they were lamenting their old comrades and cursing Hitler for being a mad man ,i counted about 400 crosses in the cemetary and each cross represented the graves of 6 german soldiers,i read some of the stones and they read just like our headstones,mostly young men between the ages of 18 and 30,i did not feel anger towards them,i felt a loss ,a waste of human life ,young men like ours who believed in their country and thought that god was on their side

 

[busby]

i took my son on a motorcycle trip for a couple of weeks,it was mainly through belgium,france and Luxembourg .I was in germany and crossed over the border to belgium,we rode through towns whos names i cant remember ,but eh memory of the first Plaque to the jews of that town and the subsequent plaques of those who were rounded up to be transported to death camps will stick with me ,as i rode on i came upon an American flag ,i stopped for a look and it was the spot where some 90 US soldiers were massacred by the SS at the start of what became known as the "battle of the bulge" ,i took some time and read their names,later on i rode the battle field area with a Belgian hells angel ,he showed me stuff that was not on the map and we ended the trip with a visit to a grave in the woods that was looked after by the locals ,it was of a solitary american soldier who had been executed as a saboteur,it was in a clearing in a pine forrest,it was all very emotional.

One other thing that got to me was a german cemetary ,i was there with my Belgian buddy and he over heard two old germans talking and translated for me, they were both veterans of the german army who fought at the Bastoyne area ,they were lamenting their old comrades and cursing Hitler for being a mad man ,i counted about 400 crosses in the cemetary and each cross represented the graves of 6 german soldiers,i read some of the stones and they read just like our headstones,mostly young men between the ages of 18 and 30,i did not feel anger towards them,i felt a loss ,a waste of human life ,young men like ours who believed in their country and thought that god was on their side

I think DONOVANS The Universal Soldier sums it all up really,,BUSBY,,

 

[Melian]

Very moving place, It's very eirey place but a must to pay your respects

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[ianandkath]

Plan on going there next month on our way down through France. I think there is a aire at the other end of the village also.

yes there is an aire in the village, but its not very level and a bit small for the rv, park verger is not far away and thats where we stopped.