New regs-confused?

Discussion in 'Bikes and eBikes' started by zaskar, Dec 4, 2015.

  1. zaskar

    zaskar Funster

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    I'd like to buy an e-bike for wifey which CAN be used legally in Spain.
    Whilst trawling the net on various official web sites, I seem to be getting confusing messages re the twist throttle side of things.
    I understand that FULL THROTTLE twist grips are apparently already illegal in Spain and will become so in the UK as of Jan 2016.
    However, although the British Electric Bike Association advises steering clear of ANY twist throttle bikes, I've read on one site that START ASSISTANCE twist throttles (up to 6mph) will still conform and be legal in the UK and Spain?
    That's all wifey needs, start assistance........pulling away from junctions etc. She's not interested in full 15.5Mph throttle and is happy with assistance once underway.

    Could somebody advise please and, if you know of such a bike sub £1000, I'd be pleased to hear of it cos Google isn't being my friend !

    Thanks
     
  2. tonka

    tonka Funster Life Member

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    Bit of info ref insurance but cant help ref the original question..
    All I know it that last week in Benidorm there were loads of them going around.

    http://n332.es/2015/02/04/electric-bike-insurance/

    I have messaged the police via Facebook with the question. They came back quickly with replies about "A" frame fines, so i will post once i hear anything,.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
  3. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    What she needs is a pedal assist.. or Pedelec bike .. has no twist throttle, so fully legal both here and Spain..
    forum here http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/

    We bought two Kalkhoff pedelecs and they are simply fantastic.. it's like having a pair of 18 yo legs again.. three power settings, Eco, Sport and Power.. the range on Eco is over 100 miles.. on power mode about 40..
    On Eco it is like someone giving you a gentle push or having a tail wind.. on Sport it's like a strong tail wind.. and on Power being pushed hard ..

    when you stand on the pedal starting off it gives you a big boost.. then it assists when needed .. you still get good exercise , but hills just melt.. what hill you think.. as you fly up it with a big smile on your face

    sorry, can't help with a sub £1k bike..
     
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  4. Teasy2007

    Teasy2007 Funster

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  5. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    I hope your spanish is up to conversation standards.

    Try explaining to a man with a gun the throttle is limited to 6mph....i doubt he will believe you.
     
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  6. ebikejohn

    ebikejohn Funster

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    Firstly, I am a trader, I sell eBikes,waiting to hear how to make this clear in my profile, I will try to avoid any mention of brands etc.

    Most of the eBikes that we sell are to riders who want the twist & go throttle, they are tremendously useful & it is unfortunate that you won't be able to buy them in the UK for much longer, they are very useful for pulling away from traffic lights etc etc.

    For the purposes of this post I define twist and go as meaning a system that propels an eBike to 15.5 mph without the need to pedal.

    They do not meet regulations throughout the wider EU though, the largest European eBike motor maker is committed to crank drive motors which do not suit twist & go throttles and elsewhere in Europe moped manufacturers are under pressure from eBike sales, Germany is seeing a huge increase in sales of so called S eBikes, these are very fast electric bikes which have to be registered for road use.

    The UK has been very slow to wake up to eBikes, in this forum we tend to think of them for leisure purposes but they do make a sensible alternative for commuting for a good many.

    The UK has adopted the EU regulations and they are wrong (shaped by commercial lobbying), EU regs have put commercial interests ahead of the needs of older or less fit riders - it is no coincidence that twist & go systems all emanate from the Far East rather than the EU.

    eBikes fitted with twist & go throttles delivered to dealers and invoiced before 31/12/15 will still be legal to sell and use in the UK after that date, the rider will need to weigh up the risks about riding a twist & go bike outside of the UK and then balance off the risk of getting caught against the possible implications of an accident involving one.

    In January our largest supplier will be sending us their first batch of 2016 eBikes, these will be restricted to 6kmh (4mph) so no good for riding for any distance but very handy for a boosted start from traffic lights etc.

    Meanwhile, I am led to believe that several UK eBike manufacturers who have been lobbying for retention of 15mph twist & go have been told that type approval is the way to go but that there is no actual mechanism in place to allow them to do so, billions to waste on HS2 - you couldn't make it up.

    A good many partially disabled and/or older riders will have their means to cheaper, healthier and more environmentally friendly travel effectively chopped off.

    Sorry to rant but the regulations are not just ill considered they are inconsiderate.
     
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  7. Welsh girl

    Welsh girl Funster Life Member

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    Terry spoke to a lady who owns a bike shop about this and she said it's not illegal yet in Spain to have a throttle so who to believe?
     
  8. Scattycat

    Scattycat Funster

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    Our e- bikes are not twist throttle but have 3 settings, uphill, down hill and flat.
    On either of these setting, when starting off just a slight turn of the pedal brings the motor into action.
    Would this not have the same effect as a twist throttle, or is the throttle more instant?
     
  9. Welsh girl

    Welsh girl Funster Life Member

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    @Scattycat I think the problem is just throttle type bikes.
     
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  10. Judge Mental

    Judge Mental Funster Deceased RIP

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    The law?
     
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  11. Judge Mental

    Judge Mental Funster Deceased RIP

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    Has you wife ever tried a crank/centre drive bike...she may be pleasently surprised

    The 4 mph (6 kph) throttle or button is designed as a walk assist......If some choose to call it start assistance then fair enough. sounds more like dealers trying on the usual to me..As even that against EU law. less face it, these cheap chinese bike so awful to ride without a throttle dealers will say anything to keep market share...

    "It's using the walk-alongside throttle without pedalling while in any way onboard the bike which breaks the law. That's because it's permitted only by the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle laws in the UK and the EU, but not by the pedelec laws." quote from my mate flecc on pedelec forum. probably the most knowledgeable man I know re e bikes

    http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/thr...e-bike-with-type-approval-and-throttle.22773/


    complicated eh?

    All I ever recommend is that people at least try a centre drive bike before getting tied up in knots worrying about this stuff. As the power is there soon as you touch the peddle and will get you up any hill as they drive through the gears, there is no comparison with a crude on/off hub motor bike with throttle, where you have to turn the crank once or twice before motor kicks in? this a joke....try that on a hill. ( there are some new hub bikes with torque sensor where power is immediate) Have lost count of the number of these bike you see being pushed up hills...If you cant get up hills on an e bike whats the point...

    I dont think there is any moves by manufacturers to go the expense of type approving throttle bikes due to lack of demand
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
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  12. Scattycat

    Scattycat Funster

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    Okay, thanks
     
  13. ebikejohn

    ebikejohn Funster

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    The reason that no manufacturers are going for type approval is the failure of the British Government to provide a mechanism to apply for type approval.
    There are some interesting comments on that page from kudosdave who runs a company selling bikes (we don't sell his bikes so this is not a plug by the way), he understands the issue because he hears from the people who buy the bikes - or at least they would if they hadn't been outlawed.
    We sell bikes, crank drive (more profit for us), front hub (extremely simple, very reliable) and rear hub drive (the most popular drive system of them all, incredibly reliable, compact).
    Crank drive bikes rely on your effort through the pedal so the initial pedal push has to be substantial, it will match itself to your effort, the more you put in the more involved it becomes, very nice if you are into cycling because it makes an average rider feel like a great rider, a hub drive, especially the latest high torque motor versions give you the beans as soon as the pedal moves, if you have the old (15mph) twist and go you don't even need to touch the pedals, it does it for you - gives you momentum, takes the strain and then (if you wish) you can join in.

    I am not too sure how long it is since you rode a hub driven bike or whether it came from an established UK based company but everything I have ridden takes just under one quarter of a turn for the hub motor to join in.

    My advice to anybody who wants to try an eBike is try each type of drive, I am not inventing this story, today I had a large 63 year old man come in, a regular cyclist who wanted to look after what he described as his new knees, he had a budget of £2000 and I put him straight on a bike that German manufactured crank drive fanatics would approve of, then he rode a £1600 Chinese crank drive bike and preferred it, he tried a £1400 hub drive bike and then a £1000 bike, he left with the £1000 hub drive bike, not because it is cheaper but because it has twist and go and a high torque at low speed motor, I don't need to explain that I would be much richer this evening if he had gone with the first bike but it wasn't for him, argue all you want - you have to get on it and ride it, he did and he made that choice.

    We need twist and go bikes for riders who simply do not have the initial 'grunt' to get themselves going, the good news is that a batch of 2016 model year bikes that arrived with us this morning came with a surprising, upgraded motor/controller package, a high torque at low speed motor and a twist and go to 4mph with real guts to it, you won't be able to ride it moped style but if that initial boost is important then these have it, they come from arguably the biggest UK based eBike company and where they lead I am sure others will follow.
    It does not solve the problem for those riders who are unfortunate enough to need assistance without pedalling though.

    I do understand that you are a crank drive evangelist Judgemental but this is not a one size fits all world, if a crank drive suits you it doesn't mean that it fits everybody and not everything that comes out China is c**p.

    So my advice is - wherever you are and whatever you do - make sure you try some different types and don't just scoot around the car park, stop halfway up a hill and see what it is like to get going again, we've got a 4 mile test route up hill and down dale here but still people come in, sit on a bike and say yes or no without riding it, see what suits you and check out the warranty, then - see what the retailer has to say about parts availability and servicing.
     
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  14. zaskar

    zaskar Funster

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    EXACTLY! Spot on for grasping the important point in my (O/P) case.
    Could you please post a link to the machine you describe above.
    Thanks.
     
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  15. Judge Mental

    Judge Mental Funster Deceased RIP

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    Eh? You can go out and buy a twist throttle bike up until the regs change in January. But they are still not legal in Europe.
     
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  16. ebikejohn

    ebikejohn Funster

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    I have to emphasise that I am a trader but that I am waiting for my trader registration to come through so I cannot post links or promote my own business or I will break the forum rules.

    Officially that bike won't be available until late January when the 2016 bikes are launched. I will post the link as soon as I am able.
     
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  17. Judge Mental

    Judge Mental Funster Deceased RIP

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    I suggest you read @zaskar original post he wants to be able to use bike in Spain...I hope you are prepared to indemnify users of these bikes abroad..and are they EN15194 compliant

    I suggest you read Flecc's contribution regards the legality of use of walk beside 4 mph throttles when riding. Bikes are for people who wish to cycle they are not disabled transport. Yes its an unfortunate missed opertunity, but that is the legal position at the moment. There are other types of electric transport available for those with mobility problems if you are unsteady or have difficulty propeling yourself, maybe look at 3 wheeled E bikes where take off not such an issue or adult stabilisers..yes there are such things
     
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  18. ebikejohn

    ebikejohn Funster

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    My understanding is this, any bike that is invoiced to me (as a dealer) before 1/1/16 with a 15.5mph twist and go throttle fitted as well as the pedelec mode can be sold legally in the UK by me, anybody who buys that bike from me will be able to use the 15.5mph twist and go mode here in the UK without fear of prosecution. The regulations are not retrospective.

    The reason that the 15.5mph twist and go will cease to be available is the adoption of EU regulations here in the UK, I have no idea whether other member countries are going to adopt the same regulations.

    Like the EU you seem to happily divide the human race into fully fit or disabled, most of our twist & go customers are quite fit and would like to stay that way, they would like to continue to ride a bike, they just aren't quite as fit as they were and a split second burst to help them start their journey is all they want, are you seriously suggesting that we condemn them to trikes and stabilisers?

    Yes - of course we only sell bikes that meet EN15194 - we are having this discussion because I have a view and an interest in this issue not because I sell dodgy bikes, one of the first questions that we ask anybody considering a twist and go bike relates to usage outside of the UK, we represent two of the most well known UK eBike companies both manufacture and sell twist and go bikes, both carry extensive coverage of the change in the regulations in their literature and on their websites, one even goes to the trouble of fitting a label printed red on white to their 15.5mph twist and go bikes advising riders to disconnect the throttle when going abroad, it involves pulling a plug out and tucking the cable end away, takes about 30 seconds to do it. As of 1/1/16 both will only supply 4mph twist and go bikes.

    Interestingly - both of these companies are confident enough to describe their 4mph twist and go products in the same way: 'Easy Start/Walk Assist', both belong to the Bicycle Association of Great Britain (the British Electric Bike Association has been absorbed into this organisation), neither take the term easy start lightly, we could debate the intricacies of the definition of easy start and walk assist but I am pretty sure that you and Flecc have made your minds up already and that the manufacturers of these bikes (and I) have already made our minds up.

    As always, the best advice is - try one, to be frank, with the latest high torque at low speed rear hub motors very few riders will need to resort to the twist and go anyway but its nice to know it is there.
     
  19. Judge Mental

    Judge Mental Funster Deceased RIP

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    Your getting a tad personal and aggressive... I suggest you look at forum rules. and this "Like the EU you seem to happily divide the human race into fully fit or disabled" is simply shameful and misleading

    Trying to undermine my contributions by describing me as evangelical, and fanatical patent nonsense. I am not a vested interest, not promoting anything. Nor am I interested in arguing, when you misinterpret what i say so easily to suit your motives and promote your agenda. As well as totally ignoring the law....

    Have already posted why I think promoting the walk along 4 mph throttle as a con trick.

    I will ask again: Such is your confidence in your product are you prepared to indemnify the buyers of these bikes for use in Europe its a simple yes or or no question.
     
  20. Judge Mental

    Judge Mental Funster Deceased RIP

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    And why its so important for all to try what these centre drive bikes are actually like to ride. They may discover they don't have problem at all. Out of interest what kinda of bikes did you ride before this
     
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