Motorhome "Weight" Limits. what is your opinion? (1 Viewer)

[PeteH]

There is a thread running (elsewhere) on Motor-home weights and payloads, which has occupied minds for some days now. Simply put it goes on these lines:-

It would transpire that the vast majority of Motor-homes sold across Europe and the UK are "plated" at 3500kg. Some of which have been found, on reaching a weigh bridge to have actual Payloads of as little as 60kg. Now 60 kg does not even include a passenger!. Never mind the food in the lockers and the Fridge plus clothing and other, even "basic" associated "stuff", we Motor-home users tend to carry. The issue appears to be that in the UK and across Europe the Licensing regimes "cut off" at 3.5tonne. driving anything heavier requires a different Licence Grade, (in the UK that is C1).

The consensus is that the Manufacturers, are building for a 3500kg limit, and to a large extent are "missing the Target", with the end result that payloads are inadequate for their intended use. And, in my view, should be rejected by purchaser at point of sale.

I would submit that the most equitable solution to this dilemma, from both a manufacturer and user aspect would be to raise the base licence (UK B) to 4tonne? "for NON commercial use". OR giving Motor-Caravans their own Category with a 4t limit. A move which would take away the necessity to get "Creative" with what one carries for a leisure activity enjoyed my Millions in the UK and across Europe every year.

May I suggest that a "lobbying" campaign be carried out to have this considered, perhaps lead by our (newly revised) "Caravan AND Motorhome Club" in conjunction with the CCC and other interested bodies, and to bring Manufacturers on board, on the grounds that, again in my view, they would be beneficiaries of such a sane move.

An argument proposed against this move, in that your average "White Van Man" could use the "rule" to overload unsuitable vehicles, could be guarded against by even making the change as suggested, "for non commercial use ONLY"?.

Another argument I have seen, "Heavier Motor-Caravans would be more dangerous", does not hold water, there is no evidence that a Vehicle being driven by a 3.5t licensee is any more dangerous than one being driven by a C1 Holder?. In the vast majority of cases the SAME vehicle has just been down rated by the manufacturer to comply with the 3.5t limit.



Pete.

 

[suavecarve]

Your proposal sounds too sensible !

I hate to be the first, possibly of many, who will suggest that "it will never change" and the probability is that it wont.

However, if you dont give it a go, certainly nothing will happen.

I am on board. (83 kgs)

 

[Speve]

IMHO I think your idea is a good one but is there a will to bring this to the attention of the authorities by the likes of these clubs they do seem more interested in rules and regulations of sites rather than members interests.
I will certainly support the changes should they be put to a test

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[Derbyshire wanderer]

While I think your idea is both logical and possible, I believe that such changes would take years of lobbying to probably get nowhere as in the grand scheme of motoring, motorhome owners are only a tiny part.
To me the big risk is that the authorities will start to become aware of this issue (and with some passion if there were some major accident related to it) and have a crackdown involving weigh bridges and the courts as the laws at the moment would appear to being broken.
I hope this does not happen but unfortunately it is more likely before anyone changes the entitlement to drive heavier motorhomes on a car license.

 

[Gellyneck]

I'm probably wrong (as usual) but did the driving licence limitations not change as a result of the UK having to fall in line with the EU? If so, an opportunity after Brexit to revert back to previous limitations? Wouldn't think so but who's got Mrs May's phone number?

 

[EuroTrotters]

Never going to happen in my opinion. The limit will stay at 3500kG.

We had a La strada that just as you say, had a 60kG payload. That was until I got in which made it over the limit. I insisted the dealer paid for a weigh upgrade that luckily, was a mere paperwork job. It was then 3850kG.

Still not a massive payload so we travelled with the water tank almost empty. Fitted Alugas, travelled as light as possible in all other respects.

TM

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[davidathomas42]

Out of interest what does it cost to add C1 to your licence?

I have it on mine but the wife does not been younger

 

[MC 55 FUN]

Something useful would be to somehow compile a list of all MH plated at 3,500kg or less & which have an unusably low payload such as @Mickey1's and have that list noted on this website so that future potential purchasers are aware that in fact the MH is not fit for purpose.

 

[SuperMike]

Out of interest what does it cost to add C1 to your licence?

I have it on mine but the wife does not been younger

The cost of lessons and a test. For me to drive our motorhome it cost about £2k to add class C, over 7.5tons. Two weeks of full time lessons and to hire a lorry for the test. I could not use the motorhome because it did not have a tachometer. The advantage to all that is I can now lash a load and know how to transport sheep.

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[Gellyneck]

Out of interest what does it cost to add C1 to your licence?

I have it on mine but the wife does not been younger

Gov website - https://www.gov.uk/adding-higher-categories-to-your-driving-licence
Now asking other Funsters, what else is entailed apart from having a C1 qualified driver with you, "L" plates (I guess),?
Or is it not that simple?

 

[Lenny HB]

I think you will find it is already on the statute books for discussion there has been a European proposal to up the limit to 4250kg and our Government as had it down for discussion for 2 or 3 years.

 

[maxi77]

Surely an inadequate payload is a manufacturers fault and makes the vehicle unfit for purpose. My van gets weighed as part of the MOT and as it is tested with my normal gear in the garage we have a hundred or so kilos for food and drink after we get in. That shows the 3.500 limit is not that unrealistic.

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[mpdcymru]

I'm probably wrong (as usual) but did the driving licence limitations not change as a result of the UK having to fall in line with the EU? If so, an opportunity after Brexit to revert back to previous limitations? Wouldn't think so but who's got Mrs May's phone number?

Yes, they did. The UK used to start Heavy Goods Vehicle licensing at 7.5 tonnes whereas most European countries started at 3.5 tonnes. When we joined the EEC we were given a period of time to bring our licensing into line. Hence we adopted the 3.5 tonne criteria for new drivers some years ago and will, after the likes of us oldies die out, eventually have the same rules across the board as the rest of the EU.

Now, at the moment we would have to lobby the EU for any changes to the driving licence regime and that is not likely because they have only recently sorted out and agreed the European Fourth Directive on Driving Licences so there will almost certainly be no change there. However, we are (possibly) about to leave the EU so that would allow for a change in our own domestic driving licensing regime albeit, those drivers taking their vehicles into Europe would have to abide by any "local" laws. If we did change, that change would only be valid on UK soil and those wishing to drive in Europe would still need to qualify under EU or international law.

We live in interesting times!

 

[mpdcymru]

Gov website - https://www.gov.uk/adding-higher-categories-to-your-driving-licence
Now asking other Funsters, what else is entailed apart from having a C1 qualified driver with you, "L" plates (I guess),?
Or is it not that simple?

I believe that the C1 accompanying driver you speak of should, if they are acting as an instructor, be one that has actually passed a C! or C test. I am not sure what the position is if they are merely acting as an "accompanying driver".

 

[martin2603]

The other ludicrous scenario is that with some 3.5tonne vehicles you can tow a trailer of yes you've guessed it 3.5 tonnes. Total permitted weight 7.00 tonnes !! Sprinter Chassis to name one and of course the Iveco at 3.5 .

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[gus-lopez]

The cost of lessons and a test. For me to drive our motorhome it cost about £2k to add class C, over 7.5tons. Two weeks of full time lessons and to hire a lorry for the test. I could not use the motorhome because it did not have a tachometer. The advantage to all that is I can now lash a load and know how to transport sheep.

But you would only want C1 ?

 

[Vanman]

All great in theory but missing a couple of important points.

Many of the Ducato chassis/frames are not built to take 4t.

Motor homes of whatever weight are still a compromise of weight/price and the bigger the weight margin the more the manufacturers will use bigger and cheaper alternatives and the more creature comforts will be added by the buyers. We'll be having exactly the same discussions and issues, just with bigger numbers.

 

[mpdcymru]

yes, you are absolutely right Vanman, whatever limit is applied in whatever situation, it will always disadvantage those sitting on or near that, often arbitrary limit.

In this context, I must say that I think the continentals got it rather more correct than us. Just look at the difference between a 7.5 tonne truck in terms of size, steering position, braking capacity and control etc compared to the Mini or Escort that many of us will have taken our test in. The look at the rather fewer and less consequential differences between that Mini or Escort and a 3.5 tonne Peugeot, Fiat or Transit.

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[Larrynwin]

Gov website - https://www.gov.uk/adding-higher-categories-to-your-driving-licence
Now asking other Funsters, what else is entailed apart from having a C1 qualified driver with you, "L" plates (I guess),?
Or is it not that simple?

When age 70 is reached and for sometimes debatable reasons C1 is removed. The driver remaining on a BE licence group can still drive up to 3500kg but cannot have a C1.

 

[2657]

The 3500k may be arbitrary but the limit has to be set somewhere and 3500 seems reasonable to me. As far as separate categories for leisure use is concerned I completely disagree, a large heavy vehicle is still that whether used for commercial or leisure purposes.

 

[martin2603]

Alco Chassis are designed to take the extra weight, the box section Chassis is not. However if our European MH Builders gave a decent spec to start with instead ( 2 Batteries, Solar Panel, Awning, Spare Wheel) which are the heaviest items , instead of giving an endless list of options costing much more than when fitted to a Ducato Van ( Drivers and Media Pack ) to name just two , the whole situation would be fairer to all prospective buyers.

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[Stealaway]

I think it could be our fault for demanding so many home comforts and quality.
They could build them much lighter if we could be satisfied with a bit flimsier fittings and doors and not want such a 5 star home from home.
We need to compromise a bit
The manufactures are also to blame by 'up specing' their vans. They can charge more money for them due to all the extras they manage screw in and on their vans

 

[SuperMike]

But you would only want C1 ?

No, over 7.5t, as I said, requires C. Full up our motor home can weigh 10.5t including a 1820kg pay load.

 

[gus-lopez]

No, over 7.5t, as I said, requires C. Full up our motor home can weigh 10.5t including a 1820kg pay load.

Sorry I didn't mean "you" ,I meant that people would only want a test for driving over 3,5T & up to the 7,5T.

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[Neilfg]

It seems from having read brochures and visited dealers that manufacturers and dealers conspire to sell vehicles that are sometimes not fit for purpose in that they all have too small a payload for the intended and advertised use of the vehicle.

Really, I find it surprising that the dealers are not required to provide documentation detailing the actual weight of the vehicles they sell with all options added. Instead of relying on the figures in a brochure, suggesting that they might take the actual vehicle to the weighbridge or invest in some scales is generally met with surprise and reluctance.

Do not like Travelworld but at the NEC they did have one van on scales so that you could see the weight of one vehicle as it was. the best bit was watching people going in and out trying to work out how much they weigh, mind 2 years ago when we suggested they should weigh a vehicle to confirm its weight they flat out refused.

 

[PeteH]

I think you will find it is already on the statute books for discussion there has been a European proposal to up the limit to 4250kg and our Government as had it down for discussion for 2 or 3 years.

I must have missed that one?.

The other ludicrous scenario is that with some 3.5tonne vehicles you can tow a trailer of yes you've guessed it 3.5 tonnes. Total permitted weight 7.00 tonnes !! Sprinter Chassis to name one and of course the Iveco at 3.5 .

.

Permissible Trailer mass in all cases is 2t. Which IMHO, only goes to underscore the idiocy of the situation?. See:- http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/downloads/al-ko-amc-commercial-brochure-2010.pdf

All great in theory but missing a couple of important points.

Many of the Ducato chassis/frames are not built to take 4t.

Motor homes of whatever weight are still a compromise of weight/price and the bigger the weight margin the more the manufacturers will use bigger and cheaper alternatives and the more creature comforts will be added by the buyers. We'll be having exactly the same discussions and issues, just with bigger numbers.

See:- http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/downloads/al-ko-amc-commercial-brochure-2010.pdf

The most popular "combination" (Fiat Alko) of witch the bulk would appear to be on the AMC35L chassis combination?. can be taken to 1750kg and up to 1850Kg with no changes. The heavier AMC35H can go to 4500Kg with a Wheel tyre change .

When age 70 is reached and for sometimes debatable reasons C1 is removed. The driver remaining on a BE licence group can still drive up to 3500kg but cannot have a C1.

C1 is retained by filling in the D90? form and having eye test and medical. Unlike the FULL C-C1 the Medical is only every 3 years.

Alco Chassis are designed to take the extra weight, the box section Chassis is not. However if our European MH Builders gave a decent spec to start with instead ( 2 Batteries, Solar Panel, Awning, Spare Wheel) which are the heaviest items , instead of giving an endless list of options costing much more than when fitted to a Ducato Van ( Drivers and Media Pack ) to name just two , the whole situation would be fairer to all prospective buyers.

Check Out:- http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/downloads/al-ko-amc-commercial-brochure-2010.pdf

I think it could be our fault for demanding so many home comforts and quality.
They could build them much lighter if we could be satisfied with a bit flimsier fittings and doors and not want such a 5 star home from home.
We need to compromise a bit
The manufactures are also to blame by 'up specing' their vans. They can charge more money for them due to all the extras they manage screw in and on their vans

Yes, But WHY should we have to take "second best" when the solution is much more simple?.

 

[pappajohn]

But you would only want C1 ?

According to Rick (motoroamin) the cost is near the same for C & C1 lessons and test.
The real difference being is the vehicle used.

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[Lorryman100]

Maybe I am a skeptic but MoHo's are generally purchased near to retirement age, as lets face it they are not cheap and mortgages and kids tend to eat up incomes leaving little for a luxury item like a MoHo when you are younger. That being the case most owners will have grand father rights and subsequently hold a C1 entitlement so IMHO why have the 3.5t limit? Apart from obvious European law etc etc I could see the point of keeping it at 3.5t so that anyone with a full driving licence could have one but back in 1997 (if i remember the year correctly this was when you automatically lost the C1 entitlement) there was no way on this planet I could have bought one on its last legs never mind a new one. I know there are youngsters who MoHo and good luck to them as I am not Jealous at all

 

[Larrynwin]

I must have missed that one?.

.

Permissible Trailer mass in all cases is 2t. Which IMHO, only goes to underscore the idiocy of the situation?. See:- http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/downloads/al-ko-amc-commercial-brochure-2010.pdf



See:- http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/downloads/al-ko-amc-commercial-brochure-2010.pdf

The most popular "combination" (Fiat Alko) of witch the bulk would appear to be on the AMC35L chassis combination?. can be taken to 1750kg and up to 1850Kg with no changes. The heavier AMC35H can go to 4500Kg with a Wheel tyre change .



C1 is retained by filling in the D90? form and having eye test and medical. Unlike the FULL C-C1 the Medical is only every 3 years.



Check Out:- http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/downloads/al-ko-amc-commercial-brochure-2010.pdf



Yes, But WHY should we have to take "second best" when the solution is much more simple?.

I fully understand the situation with C1+E 107 at 70 and if it's revoked for a medical reason , normally B+E remains allowing gvw of 3500kgs + unlimited gtw subject to towing vehicle limits.
With that in mind a C1 licence application would not be possible.

 

[Teuchter]

All of us old farts (and some not quite so old farts) who passed our driving test before 1997 can retain/re-apply for C1 licence when we are 70 or more by having the relevant eyesight & medical examinations, for those who passed their test after 1997 then they have to take a further "medium size vehicle" test to allow a vehicle of up to 7500 kg be driven.

This means that someone passing their test at age 20 would now have to be at least 40 to automatically be allowed to drive a vehicle over 3500 kg and of course as time moves on those with this qualification become less and less

Now the point of this post is to say that the number of potential owners of MoHos over 350 kg (new or used) decreases every year and (I guess) not all that many people over 40 would want to go to the expense of taking lessons and a test in a 7500 kg lorry just to enable them to drive a motorhome which is a leisure vehicle

Thus increasing the marketability of MoHos up to 3500 kg but significantly decreasing that of the over 3500 kg category - is it any wonder that manufacturers are being "economical with the truth" when they state the payloads of the 3500 kg vans!!

Surely the answer would be to increase the license restriction to say 5000kg or even 7500 kg as it used to be!

If something does not change then it will eventually become next to impossible to sell your MoHo if it is plated over 3500 kg!

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