MOT / Tax class

Discussion in 'Fifth Wheelers' started by Maverick355, May 11, 2014.

  1. Maverick355

    Maverick355 Read Only Funster

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    Been a bit quiet on here of late, is there anyone still around?...

    At the risk of going over old ground again with the MOT / Taxation class and driving licence 'grey areas', yesterday I took my 2500HD Silverado for its MOT test only to be told by the tester that he couldnt test it because it had a 5th wheel hitch in the bed... Despite him testing / passing it last year.

    After some discussion he agreed to test it as a Class 7 (which is what Id expected anyway) if I removed the 5th wheel hitch, which I did.

    The crux of his arguement was that in his opinion the rules state that any vehicle with articulated capability is classed as a HGV and therefore he couldnt test them (as he wasnt licenced to test HGV). I was grateful he tested it at class 7 but thought I would do some digging on returning home. This is despite me making a lot (so I thought!) of investigations before even buying this set up 2 years ago...

    So, searching done this is what I have found. Is this what others also believe to be true and if so there are a few questions at the end which I still have... :

    DVLA states on this page: https://www.gov.uk/annual-test-for-lorries-buses-and-trailers

    The annual test for lorries, trailers and buses is similar to the MOT test that cars take each year.
    The annual test is for:
    • motor vehicles with a gross weight of more than 3,500 kilograms (kg)
    • vehicles that are built or have been adapted to form part of an articulated vehicle
    • semi-trailers
    • horseboxes with a gross weight of more than 3,500 kg
    • ‘A’ frame trailers and converter dollies manufactured on or after 1 January 1979
    • trailers with an unladen weight of more than 1,020 kg with powered braking systems (instead of standard overrun brakes and as well as the required parking brake)
    • all public service vehicles with more than 8 passenger seats - not including the driver’s seat
    So, assuming all our pickups are rated to 3500Kg GVW (most are I believe on entry to the UK), then the first line doesnt catch us, but the second line certainly does. On the face of it that means they need a HGV MOT test... (so my MOT man was correct).

    The page then goes on to say:

    Check Form V112/G for a list of vehicles that are exempt from the annual test. You might still need to get an MOT for the vehicle.

    So I checked that form V112/G (here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/197207/V112G_1_.pdf)
    and it says it is a form for:

    Claim for Exemption from Goods Vehicle Testing Requirements and Vehicles outside the scope of the Goods Vehicle (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988 (the 1988 Regs) but which may have an allocated Plate.
    Please read the appropriate notes below and over the page before filling in this Declaration. Once this Declaration has been used to tax the vehicle, it should be kept by the applicant. It must not be sent to any other Government Agency.

    The form seems to be a self completed document which you send nowhere (??) but lets you claim that your vehicle is not subject to HGV testing requirements. The exemption which covers us is:

    35.
    Heavy motor cars or cars constructed or adapted for the purpose of [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond]forming part of an articulated vehicle and which are used for drawing only a trailer falling within a class of vehicle specified in paragraph 13, 14 or 15 of this schedule or a trailer being used for or in connection with any purpose for which it is authorised to be used on roads by an order under Section 44(1) of the 1988 Act, being an order authorising that trailer or any class or description of trailers comprising that trailer to be used on roads.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond]Paragraph 13 reads:[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond]13. [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond]Living vans the Design Gross Weight of which does not exceed 3500kgs. [/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond]Paragraphs 14 and 15 are concerned with dentist trailers etc and trailers with over-run brakes. But it is paragaraphs 35 & 13 which I think cover our uses.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond]I then got to thinking about what does Design Gross Weight mean (as opposed to GVW or MAM). From what I gather it means the same thing, the gross weight of the trailer when fully loaded. This was a bit of a worry for me as pulling an American 5'er I know it weighs more than 3.5 tons. However the method of specifing a semi trailers maximum laden weight I found to be (here: http://webarchive.nationalarchives....rican-caravan-trailer-brakes-and-coupling.pdf):[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond][FONT=AGaramond,AGaramond]
    In the case of a semitrailer or centre-axle trailer, the maximum mass to be considered for classifying the trailer corresponds to the static vertical load transmitted to the ground by the axle or axles of the semitrailer or centre-axle trailer when coupled to the towing vehicle and carrying its maximum load.

    As plated on the van, this would still be over the 3500Kg limit, however in reality we dont get to this weight when were towing (will be checked on a weighbridge though..), so I could easily replate the van and then be legal, right?.....

    So it seems like my MOT chap was right, in that all vehicles with articulated trailer capability are classed as HGV, however it also seems that by declaring that vehicle to only ever be towing a living van of not more than 3500Kg that it then becomes exempt from HGV (and back to class 7 regs I assume).

    My questions to anyone who is more knowledgable in these matters are:

    1) Do I just fill in this V112G form and keep it in the truck to prove its 'non HGV' status?
    2) Should the truck be declared as anything other than PLG with DVLA?
    3) Can I simply replate my caravan to lower its maximum axle weight to 3500Kg?
    4) Im driving on 'grandfather rights' licence so should be good for 8250Kg, whereas my in reality Im around 7000Kg (truck is 2900Kg with fuel, wife and boy, junk - hitch load will be 600Kg and caravan axle weight of 3500Kg - will make sure of this). Am I correct in my assumption here too?

    As I said at the start (sorry for the long post) I thought I had all this covered 2 years ago when I set out to buy all this equipment, but the MOT guy really threw me yesterday and I thought the regs might have changed. Just after a sanity check and confirmation of my assumptions is all!

    Cheers,
    Simon
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
     
  2. Merle

    Merle Funster

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    I think you might benefit from a discussion with vwalan. What he doesn't know on the 5er front and laws isn't worth knowing:thumb:
     
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  3. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    under 3500kg is class IV.

    Simply remove the hitch for one hour per year....the longest an MOT should take.
     
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  4. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    yours doesnt form part of an articulated outfit . unless the trailer allows minimum of 20%of its load to impose on the tow truck .
    very few fifth wheel caravans do.
    they are not articulated .they just use a fifth wheel as a hitch.
    mine allows 50%of the load and is articulated . my trailer is now under 3,500kg gvw so is mot exempt as a living van .i do carry a motor bike in the garage .
    the truck fits class 35 so is also exempt .
    your is class 7 and you may have to remove the fifth wheel .
    another thing . trailers over 3,500kg really need air brakes in the eu thats the only ones with type approval. mine has .
     
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  5. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    class 7 , 3,001kg to 3,500kg .these can be tested at normal mot stations if they can do class 7 or at a ministry station .
     
  6. estcres

    estcres Read Only Funster

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    That's interesting, we have had 2 Motorhomes since 2005 and they have both been over 3500Kg at 3850Kg and have always had a Class IV MOT.

    Never had a problem with either the MOT station, same one each year, or the DVLA when taxing, in fact our second was classed as P/HGV for car tax.

    When we picked up our 2nd vehicle it came with a brand new Class IV MOT.
     
  7. Maverick355

    Maverick355 Read Only Funster

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    Vwalan, thanks for the info, much appreciated!

    How is anyone supposed to work all this stuff out from the info given on the government websites (mostly gov.uk from what I can see)? I believe you when you say our type of vehicles are not articulated, but how does a lay-man find out what is classed as artic. and what isnt? All I could find was the comment about being modified to form part of an articulated vehicle, which I assumed my truck is.

    Im trying to find something I can show to the MOT guy so I dont run into this trouble again (his station is convenient for me and does class 7...).

    Thanks again,
    Simon
     
  8. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    but that was a motor home they are all class 4 regardless of weight .
    a pickup is a goods vehicle .
    under 3,500kg is not hgv its either class 4 or 7 .
    they arent motor tractors either as they have a pickup bed .
    ones like mine have no bed so arent designed to carry a load.
    it is more complicated .
    pm me for a tel number if anyone wants to know more . its hard to hit all the angles writing .
     
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  9. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    hi maverick . google transport managers and operators handbook .
    these even if old give you all the answers . or ring me .
    i have spent hours and hours working it out .
    i was lucky i built all sorts of vehicles years ago and was a transport manager.
    i had and still do a direct connection with the old vosa etc .
    mine was built to comply to the regs and be mot exempt .
    i would like to say i know it all but am still willing to learn .
    give a ring .
    by the way your fifth wheel trailer is a caravan in uk we dont mot caravans .
    mine is a living van as i carry a motor bike etc .
    thats another item that could effect lots of motor homes but at the moment is ignored by many .
     
  10. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    hi, i meant ebay transport managers and operators handbook.
    there are a few on there .
    as said even the older ones give a good idea of most transport laws .
    not alot changes .
    they are mainly commercial use but many things fit everyone .
     
  11. jhorsf

    jhorsf Read Only Funster

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    a total of 13 posts and you say "its been a little quiet on here lately":Rofl1:
     
  12. Geo

    Geo Trader - Funster

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    Interestingly enough I attended my 5 year refresher course in late March this year only a matter of weeks ago
    Vosa as it was then went to gtreat pains to convince us the thier stance on this very subject was
    Multi purpose vehicle
    Upto 3500kg class 4
    Over 3500kg class 7
    With a 5th wheel fitted it was most deffinatley a HGV test not a class 7
    Allan should be aware that pointing folk to printed matter for advise is no longer a viable answer
    we in the MoT sector have printed manuals (still available from the book shops) that have been out of date for years not months years
    we have now all but abandond printed matter as a source of referance
    MoT updates rule re clarifications (Note Not Changes) are but a click away I reluctantly post these comments as they might have changed before I got home:Rofl1:

    One of the major problems with testers is they do not all get to know about what is changing or has been re clarified as the boss's dont pass it all on or give access to it
    Geo
     
  13. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    yes i am aware , it is only a guide. but used by commercial operators uk wide.
    but its not artic unless it imposes at least 20%of the load. its in construction and use.
    this came up last year with a 6.5ton iveco flat bed with removable fifth wheel . was refused an mot as it had electric brakes for the trailer .
    after getting involved with vosa at the time the op was told remove fifth wheel get hgv mot . then refit hitch after all it is only a hitch.
    since when as class 4 been for goods vehicles over 3,000kg gvw . ?

    i ask as i havent heard of it . always willing to learn .
     
  14. Geo

    Geo Trader - Funster

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    The problem is Alan different departments seem to think they all have a say in what is what
    Just the same with the RV licence debacle, HGV Licence req for a non HGV vehicle
    How on earth can that be right,I think we all know its not right But they seem to be getting away with it:Doh: Same thing will now happen to every class of vehicle, they will change what they think fit, with no references made to any other previous documents or laws.
    You probably already know they are currently working on Showmens licences and MoT exempt vehicles, trouble is one dept hasn't told the others yet so one office tells us thats whats happen and that it's all due for a shake up the office next door is in denial
    Rely on nothing is my advice not even your Vosa contacts know it all :Eeek:
     
  15. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    yes there was a white paper on exemptions .
    that seems to have ended with more vehicles being exempt .
    arent dual purpose vehicles to be 4x4 as well.?
    and not more than 2040kg unladen ?
    its a mine field .
    i,m glad i dont have to have one .
    well not at the moment ,fingers crossed .
     
  16. steevie

    steevie Funster

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    I journey in a ring of friends who have RV's, all of which are around 7.000kgs, but under 7500kgs. Those of us that were'nt already, have changed tax class to private heavy goods, as its only £165 per year, as opposed to 225 or whatever now. We have them tested as class 4 because they are motor caravans, but as they are over 3500kgs, the testing station has to be equipped for class 7. This is so the jacks and rolling roads etc can handle the weight. So if its taxed as a HGV so what.....its still needs class 4 MOT as its a motor caravan....no problem.
     
  17. Geo

    Geo Trader - Funster

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    I think I understand what you mean, but it could send some RVers incorrectly running for class 7 stations or believing they have had an invalid test done at a class 4 station
    A class 4 station can conduct RV test if it has the room and a big enough Jack

    Class 7 equipment or approval doesn't come into it:Wink:
    ps Most class 7 stations wont have the right jacks or room for an RV
    G
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  18. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    the world is spinning out of control.
    can anyone correct the faults ?
    i really dont think they can .
    many have to go to ministry stations as local garages cant lift or brake test 13ton vehicles etc yet still class 4 but hgv tax or even disabled .
     
  19. Maverick355

    Maverick355 Read Only Funster

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    Thanks to all for the informative replies and especially thanks to Alan for sparing the time to have a chat to me about your interpretations and experiences!

    As it does still seem to be a grey area (at least, it is not absolutely definative from any written documentation what regs a US pickup plated at 3500Kg with a removeable 5th wheel hitch hauling a US caravan with electric brakes should be tested to), I will get a Class 7 MOT without the hitch fitted. My reasoning being:

    Plated weight is 3500Kg, therefore should not be classed as a HGV
    Hitch is removable, not part of the structure / frame of the vehicle as with a 'full size' 5th wheel
    Pin weight is less than 20% of the trailer weight
    Truck and caravan are used for personal use, not hire or reward

    However, to cover my own back I will be carrying as much documentation as I can find to at least prove I have researched this topic as well as could be expected and to show the rig is roadworthy and capable of towing this caravan.

    Thanks again to all who have helped me come to this conclusion!
    Simon
     
  20. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    All [HI]motorhomes[/HI], regardless of size or weight are class IV, there are a few exceptions...re: living vans or dual purpose etc...the vehicle in question is a pickup truck.
     

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