Mobility issues (1 Viewer)

eddie

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 4, 2007
8,127
41,037
Taunton Somerset
Funster No
540
MH
RV
Exp
since 1989
Hi, I am after some information for once :wink:

We get asked very often about the facility for charging mobility scooters and electric chairs.

Now we know a lot about charging batteries and the best way to do it Winter and Summer, but we know very little regarding the chairs and scooters.

We thought that we would try to get our heads around what
disabled peoples requirements are to charge the batteries on their mobility chairs and scooters, so thought we would ask.

On the mains charger there is a specification that will tell you somthing similar to Input voltage 220 - 240 VAC and then go on to tell you a figure in Watts.

That is the figure that we are looking at to see what will be needed to introduce a dedicated charging system to assist with this

Alternatively, are we trying to invent a solution to a problem that doesn't exist? does anyone have an issue with charging their equipment or is there a solution?

If so we would be grateful for the information to be able to pass it on to people when they ask our sales staff when asked about mobility charging

Thanks


Eddie
 

Jim

Ringleader
Jul 19, 2007
36,195
128,631
Sutton on Sea, UK
Funster No
1
MH
Adria Panel Van.
Exp
Since 1988
We've got quite a few chair users that could help Eddie, I'm sure they'll assist when they see this. Bump
 

scotjimland

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 25, 2007
2,086
9,027
Suffolk Coastal District, UK
Funster No
15
MH
Timberland
Maybe I'm missing something but surely the only practical way to charge a scooter, bike or whatever is from the mains .. Few have enough battery power available to charge via an inverter .. it would soon drain the leisure battery..

That being the case all that is required is a 230v socket mounted in a convenient location , ie in a locker or garage ..

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Jul 28, 2010
1,710
617
The world
Funster No
12,902
MH
Small car
Exp
1
a 1000watt inverter 1500 peak will charge the chair battery it works on mine

i have 5x120AH batts running 1kv inverter but 500W should work but may over heat depending on how low the chair batt is

I also have on board Genny 5KVA with 240v 3KVA step up box

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

pappajohn

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 26, 2007
43,207
48,817
Dark side of the moon
Funster No
172
Exp
Since 2005
a 1000watt inverter 1500 peak will charge the chair battery it works on mine

i have 5x120AH batts running 1kv inverter but 500W should work but may over heat depending on how low the chair batt is

I also have on board Genny 5KVA with 240v 3KVA step up box
unfortunately many chair users don't have the carrying capacity of a large RV......5 x batteries and a 5kw genny aren't light :winky:
 

John & Joan

Free Member
Mar 30, 2010
1,425
774
Darlington
Funster No
10,851
MH
A Class
Exp
10 years this time
Maybe I'm missing something but surely the only practical way to charge a scooter, bike or whatever is from the mains .. Few have enough battery power available to charge via an inverter .. it would soon drain the leisure battery..

That being the case all that is required is a 230v socket mounted in a convenient location , ie in a locker or garage ..

In my van I have duplicated the 240v sockets. I have standard white ones for 240v mains. I have also fitted the cream 240v sockets supplied by caravan shops connected a 1600w inverter which is running off my 2 x 110ah leisure batteries. I can run mains appliances at any time using this set up.

If I wanted to charge a buggy battery I would do so on mains, but could also do so while travelling by changing the charger lead into a cream socket.

I also have a Gasparini Energy 20 LPG 12v generator which produces 20 amps. This senses the state of the leisure batteries while off hookup and maintains the leisure batteries between 12v and 14v automatically. Again mains appliances are available even off hookup ie. George Forman Grill, Toaster, etc. without the fear of flattening the leisure batteries as the generator will cut in to supliment the load. We use a 1kw electric kettle from the inverter system so can boil water for a cuppa in a motorway services without breaking any rules.
 
OP
OP
eddie

eddie

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 4, 2007
8,127
41,037
Taunton Somerset
Funster No
540
MH
RV
Exp
since 1989
What we are looking at is the installation of a battery (or batteries) charged by the alternator that is completely seperate from the engine battery or the leisure batteries.

A suitable inverter could then provide a charge or number of charges whilst away with no hook up, as you would have arrived with a charged system and a charged chair, and the ability to recharge the chair without effecting the leisure batteries or engine batteries ..So you can watch Corrie and charge the chair.

Eddie

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Wildman

Free Member
May 30, 2008
0
8,470
Ilfracombe, Devon
Funster No
2,913
MH
Amazon Ambassador
Exp
since 1967
Eddie the problem is a simple one take a full battery and a flat one, connect them together and you have two half charged batteries. A wheelchair battery is 24v so two batteries could only at best half charge it when the engine is not running. what is needed is a separate alternator or seperatesolar array and batteries suppling an inverter through which a scooter can be charged whilst the engine is running only. which will then not affect the house and engine batteries. Or is there such a thing as a 240v alternator. A dedicated generator is the only other way. It takes a lot of amp/hrs to charge 24V scooter batteries. The Gasparini Energy 20 LPG 12v generator is only an option if you have the space. It also has the downside that it can kick in in the middle of the night waking you up if you are a light sleeper.
 
OP
OP
eddie

eddie

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 4, 2007
8,127
41,037
Taunton Somerset
Funster No
540
MH
RV
Exp
since 1989
The Gasparini Energy is out, because of the fact that it is too noisy and when all said an done is simply a generator. If I thought that a generator would cure the problem I would advise our customers to buy a Honda 2i which is the best generator on the market.

All alternators produce AC electricity, the rectifier transforms the voltage down to a suitable voltage for the application and converts AC to DC Typically they are 70 volts AC

Because of this 220 - 240 VAC alternators are easily sourced and have been available for years.

However, they are not always suitable for a given application. For example, in a marine situation the engines are manufactured for universal installation. Volvo D4 / D6 typically can be used by a number of boat builders so they have the capacity to run hydraulic pumps, 12VDC and 220VAC alternators, water pumps, additional water pumps etc.

This is not a problem as there is plenty of room so you simply bolt on what you need. The same goes when building specialised vehicles such as emergency treatment rooms, hospitality units etc.

With a motorhome, they all start life as a delivery van, designed to stop start, Monday to Friday driven by Fred the florist or Bob the builder. Motorhome converters get them for as little as they can and convert them.

So many are low spec to begin with, an alternator that was intended to charge a single battery is now expected to cope with the engine battery, one possibly two leisure batteries and run a fridge freezer en route.

Worse is that fact that the chassis manufacturer has used a cable with a cross section of about 30mm square (starter cable) and the distance between the alternator and the engine battery is less than a meter, but the motorhome manufacturer to save money, typically uses cable with the same cross section as a boot lace, and to further ensure that the leisure batteries won't charge properly they put them several meters from the charging source so the batteries can never charge irrespective of what it says on the pretty multi coloured display panel.


If you doubt any of this, look in your hand book and see what the rating is for the split charger fuse! 20 amps normally, so when your driving no more than about 15amps is available in reality to charge your leisure batteries. So forgetting all other variables due to voltage drop and alternator inefficiency, say you have two 120Ah batteries that are 50% discharged you need to drive for eight hours to bring them back up!

So, what we are faced with is not designing new technology but trying to sort out a problem that people who have mobility issues have when away from hook up, where the thought of using a genny (any of them) will either break rules, or at the very least alienate them from every one else in the vicinity.


At the moment people use an inverter from the leisure batteries and then have the decision to make to either charge their chair which could flatten the leisure batteries, or have heating, lights and TV in the motorhome.


What we have been playing with is in essence, a couple of batteries, linked to a good quality inverter dedicated for the mains charger supplied with the electric scooter/chair. The batteries are connected to a micro processer controlled charging system, via heavy duty, multi cored cable, to eliminate voltage drop. This cable is rated to be able to carry 170amps continuously.


So you would arrive on site, with a completely separate battery bank fully charged, ready to go. This would not effect your leisure capacity in any way at all. The system could be used to charge the chair on the move, so your chair is fully charged as well.


So you would be able to recharge your chair using the mains charger provided by the chair manufacture, via an inverter, taking power from a dedicated 12 volt source.


Charge rates when driving is increased to a massive 80Ah and we are averaging 30 -35Ah on tick over, so you could even top up the system on site should you need to in an emergency.


The charging system controls the charge to ensure that the batteries are not damaged with this charging regime.


I started to look into this recently after a customer came to us, having spent a fortune on three solar panels, and a very small Efoy unit as she needed to use a breathing machine over night. The system that had been fitted was useless, and basically the woman had been tucked up. Whether the tucker upper was just a b4stard or clueless is academic she still had been sold a system that was never going to achieve what she wanted.


It seems that most chairs have a mains requirement of 220VAC circa 500W is whish is easily achievable


Eddie
 

John & Joan

Free Member
Mar 30, 2010
1,425
774
Darlington
Funster No
10,851
MH
A Class
Exp
10 years this time
The Gasparini Energy is out, because of the fact that it is too noisy and when all said an done is simply a generator. If I thought that a generator would cure the problem I would advise our customers to buy a Honda 2i which is the best generator on the market.

Eddie

Hi Eddie

Having used the Gasparini now for about 700 hours. I do not find it noisy at all. Infact we have run it on a remote site and asked people if it would annoy them and they have replied that they didn't even notice it was running.

Joan and I have on occasions gone to sleep with it running and Joan is a very light sleeper.

Point taken that you would not want it starting up on a caravan site during the night so it is usually swithched off overnight. I find other portable generators sound a lot noisier than the Gasparini. Ours is fitted under the van behind the rear axel. 1 or 2 hours use a day is all that is needed to keep the batteries topped up.

John

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

movan

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 2, 2009
21,492
120,752
Moving around
Funster No
9,543
MH
Burstner
Exp
since07
Hi Eddie, slightly different but next time you getting head round something, can you also look at how to get a disabled person INTO the motorhome please? My mum needs a wheelchair and the step into the van is too high.

I have put small steps leading up to it but it is still impossible for her to bend her leg. I would love some kind of hoist - a belt that goes round their back (a bit like they have in hospitals to put them into the bath) ... I think. NOt sure and I just can't picture anything to help me pull her up into the van if I get her foot onto the step. :Sad:

Thank you. Joy
 
OP
OP
eddie

eddie

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 4, 2007
8,127
41,037
Taunton Somerset
Funster No
540
MH
RV
Exp
since 1989
Hi Joy

That's a problem that I am not qualified to help with, I would sugges talking to someone experienced, perhaps someone who works in a specialist disabled business.

However, If I get a Eureaka moment I'll be sure to post:winky:

Eddie
 

Wildman

Free Member
May 30, 2008
0
8,470
Ilfracombe, Devon
Funster No
2,913
MH
Amazon Ambassador
Exp
since 1967
eddievanbitz;485437What we have been playing with is in essence said:
all that is in essence what I suggested, however I believe the existing alternator would have to be uprated in order to cope with charging 5 batteries, assuming one engine and two existing leisure batteries plus the two new ones. The second bank charging via a battery master once the others are fully charged. Much easier to just add a second alternator specifically for the chair system batteries and be totally independant of the other charging system. A proper multistage battery charger would allow faster charge rates and make short runs count. Wiring to the existing leisure batteries would also have to be improved.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
OP
eddie

eddie

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 4, 2007
8,127
41,037
Taunton Somerset
Funster No
540
MH
RV
Exp
since 1989
all that is in essence what I suggested, however I believe the existing alternator would have to be uprated in order to cope with charging 5 batteries, assuming one engine and two existing leisure batteries plus the two new ones. The second bank charging via a battery master once the others are fully charged. Much easier to just add a second alternator specifically for the chair system batteries and be totally independant of the other charging system. A proper multistage battery charger would allow faster charge rates and make short runs count. Wiring to the existing leisure batteries would also have to be improved.

The existing leisure batteries could/would be looked at as a separate issue. Of course this is bread and butter stuff for us as we have specialised in this kind of work for the last couple of decades. The wiring does not need to be improved, but removed and replaced with cable of a correct gauge.

We envisage no real need to upgrade the alternator, as with most European motorhome set ups the alternator is only working at 10 - 20% efficiency.
Adding an additional is unnecessary, causes warranty problems on new vehicles and as explained earlier very difficult on a mass produced factory line vehicle.
 

Snowbird

LIFE MEMBER
Apr 24, 2009
11,818
22,345
Liverpool.
Funster No
6,422
MH
Fifth wheel.
Exp
Since 11-05-2000
Hi, Check out ebay item no 230597671481. This will charge a second battery bank but only when the primary bank is charged. This gismo is about £20 delivered and works fine for me. If you set up a seperate battery bank with invereter to charge your scooter batteries you know that there will be no chance of running your main leasure bank down. I have one of these charging my engine battery and am thinking of a second battery bank to do the same as you only to charge my electric bike with any excess solar power.
 

Ambilkate

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 15, 2009
8,649
18,037
Shropshire
Funster No
7,509
MH
HYMER 654
Exp
since 2006
The Gasparini Energy is out, because of the fact that it is too noisy and when all said an done is simply a generator. If I thought that a generator would cure the problem I would advise our customers to buy a Honda 2i which is the best generator on the market.

All alternators produce AC electricity, the rectifier transforms the voltage down to a suitable voltage for the application and converts AC to DC Typically they are 70 volts AC

Because of this 220 - 240 VAC alternators are easily sourced and have been available for years.

However, they are not always suitable for a given application. For example, in a marine situation the engines are manufactured for universal installation. Volvo D4 / D6 typically can be used by a number of boat builders so they have the capacity to run hydraulic pumps, 12VDC and 220VAC alternators, water pumps, additional water pumps etc.

This is not a problem as there is plenty of room so you simply bolt on what you need. The same goes when building specialised vehicles such as emergency treatment rooms, hospitality units etc.

With a motorhome, they all start life as a delivery van, designed to stop start, Monday to Friday driven by Fred the florist or Bob the builder. Motorhome converters get them for as little as they can and convert them.

So many are low spec to begin with, an alternator that was intended to charge a single battery is now expected to cope with the engine battery, one possibly two leisure batteries and run a fridge freezer en route.

Worse is that fact that the chassis manufacturer has used a cable with a cross section of about 30mm square (starter cable) and the distance between the alternator and the engine battery is less than a meter, but the motorhome manufacturer to save money, typically uses cable with the same cross section as a boot lace, and to further ensure that the leisure batteries won't charge properly they put them several meters from the charging source so the batteries can never charge irrespective of what it says on the pretty multi coloured display panel.


If you doubt any of this, look in your hand book and see what the rating is for the split charger fuse! 20 amps normally, so when your driving no more than about 15amps is available in reality to charge your leisure batteries. So forgetting all other variables due to voltage drop and alternator inefficiency, say you have two 120Ah batteries that are 50% discharged you need to drive for eight hours to bring them back up!

So, what we are faced with is not designing new technology but trying to sort out a problem that people who have mobility issues have when away from hook up, where the thought of using a genny (any of them) will either break rules, or at the very least alienate them from every one else in the vicinity.


At the moment people use an inverter from the leisure batteries and then have the decision to make to either charge their chair which could flatten the leisure batteries, or have heating, lights and TV in the motorhome.


What we have been playing with is in essence, a couple of batteries, linked to a good quality inverter dedicated for the mains charger supplied with the electric scooter/chair. The batteries are connected to a micro processer controlled charging system, via heavy duty, multi cored cable, to eliminate voltage drop. This cable is rated to be able to carry 170amps continuously.


So you would arrive on site, with a completely separate battery bank fully charged, ready to go. This would not effect your leisure capacity in any way at all. The system could be used to charge the chair on the move, so your chair is fully charged as well.


So you would be able to recharge your chair using the mains charger provided by the chair manufacture, via an inverter, taking power from a dedicated 12 volt source.


Charge rates when driving is increased to a massive 80Ah and we are averaging 30 -35Ah on tick over, so you could even top up the system on site should you need to in an emergency.


The charging system controls the charge to ensure that the batteries are not damaged with this charging regime.


I started to look into this recently after a customer came to us, having spent a fortune on three solar panels, and a very small Efoy unit as she needed to use a breathing machine over night. The system that had been fitted was useless, and basically the woman had been tucked up. Whether the tucker upper was just a b4stard or clueless is academic she still had been sold a system that was never going to achieve what she wanted.


It seems that most chairs have a mains requirement of 220VAC circa 500W is whish is easily achievable


Eddie

Very interested in being kept up todate with this please Eddie, as we do on occasions have to use an unsociable gennie to charge Amanda's mobility scooter.


Bill

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

haganap

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 5, 2007
12,711
25,974
planet earth
Funster No
974
MH
Carthago C Tourer
Exp
I'm an oldbie MH number 9
Is there some similar technology all be it very simple in how Ice cream vans work? they have an Alternator uprated to power the freezers and teh machine that delivers the ice cream, hence the engine drop when they pull the leaver?
My understanding is that this does exactly what you want in increasing the efficiency of the Alternator?
All that would simply need to be done is split charging to differing batteries and have a couple dedicated to charging a scooter via an inverter?
I suppose what it would be useful to know is how long it takes to charge a scooter? and why stop at scooters? do electric bikes have the same problem? hec, if you take it forward 10 years, we will be using it to charge our electric cars that we toad!!!
 

aba

Free Member
Oct 27, 2009
2,775
1,112
yorkshire
Funster No
9,066
MH
coachbuilt
Exp
dec 2009
we recently broke an old transit ambulance and it had 2 alternators fitted to the engine.
the standard ford fit 80a and an aftermarket 180a on the opposing side of the engine these seemed to be connected to their own battery banks with cable the size of hosepipe
 

slobadoberbob

Free Member
Jun 1, 2009
6,151
1,960
Kent, garden of England
Funster No
6,953
MH
Winnebago 23' something
Exp
25 years & counting
I have been doing this battle now for over 2 years

Well Eddie I have been doing this battle since you fitted the Stirling to my RV.

I have a couple of choices.. connect to the mains via a 230v EHU and charge my two scooters via the Sterling inverter .. takes a few hours.. but much like charging the scooters at home... or I have to run my 4 kw chassis generator and charge it again via the Sterling. Both work.. however

If I run the generator it is costly and noisey even with the genteri fitted (extra exhaust to take the exhaust fumes up and over the RV).

As you know we cannot add extra batteries to the RV (the size is limited due to the floor opening int he Winnebago). we have ruled out solar following a conversation we had a while back.

So next year we are going down the route of a wind turbine to boost the batteries while on a site that does not have EHU.. local meets of the CC&C do not allow generators .. although thye will allow us to charge the batteries within reason.

When at Lincoln (very windy) I saw a cone type and have been researching these (not cheap) to put some power back in the battery faster than the genny.. but I doubt I will get as good as my NASA BM1 says re the imput of power from the genny.

When at a show we either pay for power (Shepton) or we exercise our rights and run the genny and recharge the batteries and the cost of the fuel is part of the weekend expenses.

The Ford E350 as you know has a 140 amp hour alternator and that does carry any excess charge to the batteries when under way..... does it cost more to run the engine and use the excess power? or to run the genny 4 kw? not sure.. but as the engine exhaust comes out under the awning.. it is the genny that wins.. but I go for EHU where ever I can.

When you come up with a suitable answer I will be at the front of the queue.

But so far what we have works within reason... we these days pull a 20' 2,000 kgs Brian James Trailer and have a winch battery which we boost off from the genny when running so we always have an extra batter if we need it. But most of our energy saving has been to change to LED's and limit our use of some items that run via the inverter such as the domestic 230v TV and DVD.

Bob

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
OP
eddie

eddie

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 4, 2007
8,127
41,037
Taunton Somerset
Funster No
540
MH
RV
Exp
since 1989
There are lots of options, the reason that I started the post was that many companies like us have been asked about charging and batteries etc and have always dealt with the issue piecemeal.

So we are now looking to get a better understanding of what we need to install and supply and try to get some answers

We will keep this updated

Eddie
 

Ambilkate

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 15, 2009
8,649
18,037
Shropshire
Funster No
7,509
MH
HYMER 654
Exp
since 2006
Ask smudger hes found a way round this as he as to recharge is wheelchair up as he full times in is RV

Have asked Smudger to have a alook at this thread, hope he gets round to it today.

Kate

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

slobadoberbob

Free Member
Jun 1, 2009
6,151
1,960
Kent, garden of England
Funster No
6,953
MH
Winnebago 23' something
Exp
25 years & counting
I thin you will find he does as we do

Ask smudger hes found a way round this as he as to recharge is wheelchair up as he full times in is RV

Having been parked up with him at various shows he does a similar thing to us.. I know on his Winnebago he has an even bigger genny than I do .. but often on sites he uses the Honda genny he has in the locker which has a remote start and he uses that to power up so he can recharge his power chair. But like us if he can get EHU that is good.

As there is no ready made solution due to design or cost then most of us will find a way round the issue.. not always easy but we do manage.

I went down the road for a pure sin wave inveter to cope with the issues of the scooter /s and it does work.. the inverter is not the issue it is the slow charge that the power pack puts in to the scooters 8w and 5w each respectively so while my genny and inverter are pumping out more than enough the actual scooter charges are very slow .. they are charging on both of them 24v batteries (2 x 12v)

For Joys question there are power steps that are like those on trucks made to lift just people.. not cheap, but they fit under the door.

Going back to smudgers RV.. he has a very large RV and I suspect you will find he has a sizeable battery bank.. as the power wheelchair lift he has draws a fair bit to lift the weight of the lift, the chair and Derek. Those motors on the lift are power hungry.. not so bad if you have the room for lots of batteries. But not all RV's and many european motorhomes would not have the space to carry lots of battery weight. (extra)

Bob
 

slobadoberbob

Free Member
Jun 1, 2009
6,151
1,960
Kent, garden of England
Funster No
6,953
MH
Winnebago 23' something
Exp
25 years & counting
I do not think Derek is representative of the issue

Have asked Smudger to have a alook at this thread, hope he gets round to it today.

Kate

Hi Kate,

I do not think Derek is representative of the issue, but his views will be most welcome. Derek has a very large RV and can carry serious batteries and has a large on board chassis genny as well as the Honda he has in the side locker.. most european's cannot carry that amount of equipment or do not even have it.. the inverter alone is massive.. I have 1500w and wish I had gone for a bigger one.. but then I still have the same issue as day one when I went to Eddie at VanBitz.. the same small batteries .. now that would be an advancement if more power was available in a smaller battery coupled to an inverter.. but that is wishful thinking.

I hope Eddie does work out something.. but he needs to think about the weight, the size, the cost, and how easy is it to use.

Bob
 

JeanLuc

Free Member
Nov 17, 2008
3,304
2,199
Warwickshire
Funster No
4,952
MH
Hymer B630 Star-Line
Exp
Since 2007
Hi Eddie, slightly different but next time you getting head round something, can you also look at how to get a disabled person INTO the motorhome please? My mum needs a wheelchair and the step into the van is too high.

I have put small steps leading up to it but it is still impossible for her to bend her leg. I would love some kind of hoist - a belt that goes round their back (a bit like they have in hospitals to put them into the bath) ... I think. NOt sure and I just can't picture anything to help me pull her up into the van if I get her foot onto the step. :Sad:

Thank you. Joy

It might be worth talking to Glide-Rite Joy. They were at the NEC last week, but mostly demonstrating auto-levelling and air suspension systems. However, they also specialise in access adaptations for ambulances etc. The solution will probably be quite expensive, but a conversation with them may give you food for thought.
http://www.glide-rite.com/

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top