LPG kg/ltr in France

Discussion in 'Continental Touring' started by Heyupluv, Oct 6, 2009.

  1. Heyupluv

    Heyupluv Read Only Funster

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    When you refill your gas bottle at the pump......(I am in France)......I presume you purchase the gas in Litres......and as the bottle is in kg ...e.g. 13kg and I think I have read on previous threads you only fill to 80% if my maths are right that is about 10.0kg (10.4) how many litres are there in 10kg...........

    Thank you Mel
     
  2. activecampers

    activecampers Read Only Funster

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    A litre is about 0.5kg

    I assume you don't have a proper refillable system then as these automatically cut off at 80% in which case you fill till the pump stops.

    If you are using a fleabay type filler for calor be aware they can be dangerous and you'd probably get booted off a forecourt for using one... Its almost certainly illegal. I thought about it then bought gaslow.... In order to be accurate on a manual fill you really need to weigh the bottle and take the tare weight (unique to your bottle and flagged on collar) and go on weight alone.

    I'm happy I bought gaslow :)
     
  3. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

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    Oh dear here we go again, they are neither dangerous nor illegal and in fact will automatically cut off at 80% just like any other LPG system. All of the LPG stations I have asked have no problem with the ebay type fillers provided they are well made and not a home made lashup. you have obviously never used one so please don't pass comment on things you know nothing about you just mislead people. And no I don't sell them nor make them just one satified user.
     
  4. activecampers

    activecampers Read Only Funster

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    Hi Wildman
    Sorry - and happy to be corrected where necessary. When I looked into it a couple of years ago the calor adapters didn't have any way to cut off at 80% and as such what I said above was intended in good faith and was correct as of last time l looked into it as they were illegal as there was no 80% cut off (which was a requirement according to the certifications given by the LPG suppliers)

    How do these now work to detect 80% full and cut off pump supply? They can't have a float gauge and relying on bottle pressure will not be reliable enough?
    You are right I never used one as my research 18mths ago suggested they weren't right and as such I'd say I can pass comment as I did know something about it when I did thorough research, but please feel free to correct (nicely).

    I've just looked on fleabay and the ones I've found do not have an 80% filler, but rely on a human making the decision when to stop (which is fine if that is what you want) - but I'd appreciate any info you have on how these stop safely and automatically at 80% so I can be correct in any future assistance I may give people. Or if you have any link to the approval of them (or any other non automated shut off system)

    Cheers in advance as I'd hate to misslead people in future.
     
  5. ocsid

    ocsid Read Only Funster

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    Caution: if your working off what is printed on the cylinder, 13kg etc then you must only put that in if it starts empty.!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  6. Heyupluv

    Heyupluv Read Only Funster

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    Hi Ryan ...thanks for the info.........I was just wondering is it worth my while changing...... at this moment in time I have no set up Calor or otherwise,
    It was just going thro my mind having read some info on Gaslow on a previous thread I had running.

    I use 3 to 4....X 13 kg bottles per year ( but they will only have 80% in each bottle about 10kg) .. so I think I am correct in saying I am using 30 to 40 kg....( please correct me I am wrong).....I pay 19.5 Euros for a refill.............and as you say a litre is about 0.5kg.....so I am using about 15 to 20 litre at the pumps per year, and as a funster said on one of my previous threads... WEYMARD a Frenchie..in France...GPL is 0.67 at the Hypermarket and 0.80 on the motorways.

    To refill in France at the pumps
    Hypermarkets
    15 ltr x 0.67c = 10.5 euros
    20 ltr x 0.67c = 13.4 euros
    Motorway stations
    15 ltr x 0.80c = 12.0 euros
    20 ltr x 0.80c = 16.0 euros
    And to purchase refilled bottles it would cost 19.5 x 3 = 58.5 euros.....19.5 x 4 = 78 euros per year
    as opposed to the worst scenario 20 ltr = at 0.80c per ltr 16 euros on the motorway per year

    What would the cost of a full Gaslow cost !!??

    If I have got it all please let me know
     
  7. activecampers

    activecampers Read Only Funster

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    Hi

    We have a small van, internal locker, single 6kg bottle.... Hence for us gaslow was perfect as we can fill up even when only 1/2 empty as we had no fallback option. Fully fitted into a panel van was £335 all in which I think was very good value as the install was tough! The bits alone woul dbe c. £200?

    Doing a lot of wild camping, and running fridge, cooking, and hot water, we need to fill up every 2 weeks around 7-8 litures - around 5 euro! Over winter when wild camping and using gas heating we may fill up every week or so just to ensure it is full!

    I don't see the point of a multiple bottle gaslow system as you may as well fill up more often and make better use of the space!

    For you, if you have 2x bottles you can fully empty one and then use the other which would help, as already mentioned, if you use a manual adapter you need to ensure yourself you stay <80% and you can't do that without scales if bottle is 1/2 full

    You say 30-40kg is 15-20 litres - its teh other way round :) 30-40kg is 60-80 litres. (e.g. our 6kg is 12 litres (excl 80% rule) )

    If you are paying 19.5 for someone to refil a 13kg bottle - thats fairly cheap - we were paying £20 for a 6kg calor replacement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now its 5 euro...... Remember with gaslow you can fill up when you pass somewhere cheap - not just when empty.

    So its a pricey investment but in our circumstances it was the right thing for US to do and made our long trips hassle free.


    But for you its different, I make the math:-

    For 40kg of gas (80L)
    4 x replacement bottles @ 19.5 = 78 euro
    80L @ 0.7 = 56 euro
     
  8. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    melvin . i like wildman use a bottle filla from ebay13 kg is for the gas to fill when empty. i use a spring balance toweigh the bottle if i think any is left in. normally i use till empty . there is a tare wt also on the bottle. in my experiance the pump switches off at about 85percent . cant say why it does. when calor fill my tank at home 1100 litres they very often fill to 90percent. i have been filling bottles since the 70,s i still have a gas tank and equipment for running auto gas on cars. a beam system from california and a lande hartog from holland. i have adaptors to fit just about any bottle be it propane /butane clip on screw on .yes you have to switch your brain on when filling bottles. be them yours or gaslow. best not smoke at the same time seen many times in foreign coutries while they tip one bottle into yours at the gas station.i normally say if you have a 13 kg bottle it will take 26 litres to be 80 percent full so put in 24 just to be safe. its very simple. you pay your money as you wish .i did use a filla from the car kit adapted to use for bottles for years but the ebay kit is very neat and well made.pm me i can give a tel no. may get it cheaper. filling petrol is just as dangerous in my books. cheers alan.
     
  9. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    you can fill up when part full because the pump stops. doesnt matter which system you use, if you pay 300 and odd quid you have to justify it some how so just frighten people seems the norm. cheers alan
     
  10. lebesset

    lebesset Read Only Funster

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    all that happens at a gas refilling factory is that they put in the appropriate amount of gas , difference is that instead of having a screwed on connection it is a device that just presses against the entry during filling ...probably less safe and more prone to leaks , but 10 times quicker

    with regard to the weight of gas contained therein ..it is what is marked on the bottle ....so a 13 Kg bottle contains 13 Kg of gas when full ...the safe load

    so if you want to fill your bottles yourself , stick to the marked fill weight and it is within the safety limit , in other words 26 litres in a bottle marked 13Kg

    as a matter of interest , the 80% fill is pretty arbitrary , it is designed to cover all known possibilities eg you are in the middle of the sahara , 50C , you leave the bottle in the sun and it heats to 80C ; but better safe than sorry

    bear in mind the pressures involved....lpg [ ie as far as we are concerned butane, propane or a mixture of these [ yes I know that in reality there will be other lpg's as pollutants , maybe 10% , but let's not be pedantic ] has approximately the following pressures at normal european summer temperatures

    gas in bottle 10bar
    vessel design operating pressure 15bar
    test pressure 30bar

    so there is a huge safety margin built in

    personally I would never 'top up ' a bottle ; there is no easy reliable method of knowing exactly what is left in the bottle ...wait until empty then you know precisely the safe fill

    frankly this is safer than the refillable container system ; I ran lpg powered vehicles for 25 years , and have had the 80% control fail on a couple of occasions ; and met and discussed with others who have had the same problem [ mainly dutch ]; then you get an overfill ; can't happen if you follow my methodology
     
  11. activecampers

    activecampers Read Only Funster

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    Save the sniping for the other forum - this is supposed to be the fun one! :) I hope fun doesn't go the same way :(

    FWIW I feel no need to justify any spend. I am not trying to frighten anyone! If you see above which I tried to make clear MY circumstances are different as I tried to clarify, such as internal gas locker, single small bottle. For me to use other adapter It'd take me 1/2 hour to get the bottle out to fill! :) and I'd not want the wife to do it without me there. Also, as you said, if you know what you are doing you are generally okay (I've never heard of an incident 1st hand). But considering the OP didn't know how heavy a litre of gas was, and got the maths wrong (sorry!), it suggest he is not a knowledgable person on this topic and isn't aware of the facts.

    You mention you use scales when filling, but may I ask how the pump stops when the bottle is 85% (which IMO is probably acceptable if it does). The engineer in me doens't give me a reason as to why it does. I'd have thought without a mechanism to do this (aka all "permanent fit" systems) it'd just fill till full which, as we know, would be a problem. And if they all do, why do all "permanent fit" systems etc have the 80% valve and why do the LPG garage suppliers insist on this valve being there to stop overfilling if the pumps do it?)

    Think I'm going to bow out of this thread as clearly suggesting what I believe to be accurate facts helping out the OP is argued agressively suggesting I know nothing; am hear to frighten people; and not being helpful - then its no longer constructive.

    Mel - hope you have the info you wanted.
     
  12. Heyupluv

    Heyupluv Read Only Funster

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    Hi Ryan
    Sorry about the maths mistake........
    And yes we do have two bottles in a 2 bottle chamber....and yes the price is good and the "Actigaz" lime green bottles of propane we use is the price quoted, and up to now we have found them all over France at all supermarkets and gardening shops, so there is no problem there.

    And if I change motorhomes in the near future (which I am thinking of) and the outside of the motorhome as been altered for refill you then you would have to leave the Gaslow system in situ .....so that would mean more expense to a new van

    I can see your situation it is the best solution, and I can see just refilling the amount that is required to top up is good ………but I don’t think I can justify changing.

    Thank you for all you help …Mel
     
  13. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    the facts are all gas tanks dont have shut off valves i have one with a brass screw and you open it to let out the gas when it lets out liquid its time to stop. you do mean well sorry if i came acros offensive. its just that every one is entitled to have a say it seems to me as i said but never mind both systems work. i also have an lpg pump so i can fill bottle to bottle etc . as you travel you see many things that at first dont seem right but is it our education that teaches us wrong . sometimes i question my teaching from the past. hope you arent offendedbetter to make a friend than an enemy. cheers alan.
     
  14. Heyupluv

    Heyupluv Read Only Funster

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    Hi OCSID....Yes I see your point...I was just using that as a example.. max - mim...thank you Mel
     
  15. Heyupluv

    Heyupluv Read Only Funster

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    see my reply to Ryan and thank you Alan,
    But I am not at this moment in time it is the right way for me to go...not saying it is the wrong way.

    Mel

    I would like to say thank to you all, for your input/and sound information and also the input on previous threads I have just been running on LPG
    Mel
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  16. shortcircuit

    shortcircuit Read Only Funster

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    In MacDonalds on free wifi in Boulonge. Have just filled up 10.74 lt cost 6.61 euros so at a guess that is about 60p a ltr. Cant e bad
     
  17. Heyupluv

    Heyupluv Read Only Funster

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    or has it gone up, or was it in a different part of France for both prices
    as diesel changes every day over here
     
  18. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

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    the automatic cut off is in the filler pum, not the receiver. Gaslow bottles have a release valve that will blow off in the event that the filler goes wrong and tries to overfill. Using a manual adapter one starts with an empty bottle and fills with the exact amount. I am assured by the fuel stations it is impossible to overfill but have never tried, I am happy to refill more often than fill to the absolute limit. These adapers have been in use for many years without mishap. Calor outlets use them to refill their own bottles. The filler cuts off at a given back pressure which is lower than the 80% fill rate. simple as that. Everything else is simply panic mode by people who have not used the system or are unable to understand simple instructions. I have no gas leaks from the filling adapter and only differance to Gaslow is that I have to remember to open, then close the gas valve. when I am incapeable of diong that I will no doubt have to give up driving let alone motorhoming. My adapter has the 80% fill rate marked on it in litres for a number of different bottle sizes. and I work to that. I'ts not rocket science. But each to their own and I would not recomend their use to anyone who has the sightest doubt about their ability to use one safely. It is less hazarous than filling with petrol.
     
  19. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

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    why else would you refill abottle?
     
  20. Heyupluv

    Heyupluv Read Only Funster

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    0.615 ltr ........is that good or bad as I was told it was a lot cheaper in the UK
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
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